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Apr 29, 2020 13:01:42 GMT
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One of those hair brained ideas that has come to warrant further research as I've half an idea it may be viable.
So, time to pick the collective brains of people who may know more than me on the subject.
To the point of it all!!!
I have a Land Rover Td5 engine sat on a pallet doing very little at the moment, and (for reasons I'm unsure myself) the idea of ditching the turbo and instead adding a Supercharger has come to seem like a good idea.
First port of call was looking at what was available on ebay, with a variety of Eaton M45 and M62 blowers from Mini's and Merc's popping up at less than £200.
Secondly I spoke to a mate who's tremendously good with ECU's and is well versed in the Td5 about sorting the mapping for it, and he was more than up for giving it a go if I got the hardware sorted.
What I'm now looking to sort out is some of the maths surrounding the job, which isn't just so easy with limited data available.
In standard turbo form the Td5 will sense an overboost and go into limp mode at approximtely 1.4 bar (or 20.3psi) of boost.
As such it seems a reasonable target to try and hit with the Supercharger.
However this is what I've sussed so far;
An M62 has been quoted on delivering roughly 1 litre of air per revolution, whilst I believe the 2.5 (a 2.5 litre 5 cylinder) should draw 1.25 litres per rev.
So, with a target of 20.3psi above atmosphere (14.7) I want to be aiming for 35 psi total, so 35÷14.7 or 2.38 times what the engine would draw in N/A form.
So, if my thinking is correct the supercharger needs to push 2.38x1.25 litres of air for every turn of the crank, so 2.98 turns of the charger should deliver the required volume of air.
A redline of aprox 4200 rpm should see the supercharger topping out at 12,516rpm which is certainly well within the 14,000rpm maximum quoted for an M45.
I'm guessing there would be benefit (and not just for the plumbing) in retaining the intercooler and similarly a tube work to make an exhaust manifold which flows a little more freely as it wouldn't have to funnel everything through the turbo.
Any thoughts or feedback welcome, particularly toward correcting my maths if required.
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Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
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Supercharged Td5Phil H
@philhoward
Club Retro Rides Member 133
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Apr 29, 2020 13:30:46 GMT
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You dropped from an M62 to an M45 - I'm guessing that's a slip of the keyboard but yes - your man-maths is about right.
Except - you'll need a bypass or inlet throttle on it otherwise you'll have 1.4 bar of boost at idle too..now most M62's seem to have a electric clutch on them (same as an aircon compressor) - effectively "boost on/boost off" which is one way, if a little coarse. Not sure on the inlet mechanism on the Td5?
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Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
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Supercharged Td5Phil H
@philhoward
Club Retro Rides Member 133
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Apr 29, 2020 13:33:22 GMT
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Trick might be finding a pulley set to match your requirements though as you need a 3:1 set. As the electro-pulley is about 100mm, that means a 300mm crank pulley - that's a big'un. I think there's a 70mm plain pulley available which means a 210mm crank pulley - possible...
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moglite
Part of things
Posts: 815 
Club RR Member Number: 144
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Supercharged Td5moglite
@moglite
Club Retro Rides Member 144
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Apr 29, 2020 13:42:11 GMT
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Good man  Have you read my thread on DIY supercharging ? Supercharging a B-seriesI'm far from the finishing post yet, but there is some good info there. Things to think about - drive belts and more specifically pulleys. You are ahead of the game as you've already got a serpentine belt Inlet manifold - not too bad to build from mandrel bends actually. So for supercharging a diesel it goes Air-filter -> supercharger -> inlet manifold -> cylinders ? If so that makes life a little simpler. I've got a good M45 in a box ready to ship if you are interested. For not too much money. Bookmarked this one :-) |
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Last Edit: Apr 29, 2020 13:43:00 GMT by moglite
1967 Morris Oxford Traveller
1979 Toyota LandCruiser BJ40
1993 Daimler Double Six
2007 Volvo XC70 2.4D
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Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
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Supercharged Td5Phil H
@philhoward
Club Retro Rides Member 133
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Apr 29, 2020 13:44:23 GMT
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M45 won't be big enough for a 2.5, even a diesel. Well, not to match the boost from a turbo anyway. Needs to be an M62, I'd say.
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SamV8
South West
Posts: 90
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Apr 29, 2020 13:56:02 GMT
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sounds like an interesting project, bookmarked to see how it plans out 👍🏻
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Apr 29, 2020 15:45:02 GMT
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Likewise, as a recent convert to td5 engines I’ll be VERY interested to see how this pans put
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sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
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Supercharged Td5sowen
@sowen
Club Retro Rides Member 24
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Apr 29, 2020 16:59:45 GMT
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My brother was for a short while running a 200tdi with an Eaton M45 after the stock turbo. Nothing clever, just plumbed it in the middle. At idle the rotors weren't spinning fast enough to generate meaningful boost, and I think it was geared for about 10psi tops? With the stock turbo feeding the supercharger the manifold pressures were going up to 25psi I think? It was insanely fun to drive, instant boost and power all the way to the top with the most amazing supercharger scream to drown out the diesel rattle!
Downside was it destroyed clutches and broke the gearbox from the amount of vibrations that went through the transmission. A 5 cylinder should be more balanced and avoid such issues?
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Apr 29, 2020 18:01:07 GMT
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200tdi is generally reckoned to be one of the sturdiest LR engines built, and the td5 more fragile ( if you believe the hype)
I’d have thought the earlier engine would have been better, but I’ve been wrong before 😳
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Apr 29, 2020 19:28:24 GMT
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I might be wrong, but I think it is better to have a bigger charger not working as hard. Makes the inlet air temperatures a lot lower. In the Lexus / 1UZFE world about 10psi is plenty on standard engine / ecu. Most use an eaton 112 or an 90 at a push.
You should get better low down torque and no lag, maybe not so much top end though.
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Apr 30, 2020 13:16:56 GMT
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Having done a bit more thinking, along with some measuring and some maths I've come up with the following. First off, the Td5 crank pulley is 170mm diameter, so running a 2.98 ratio on an M62 would need a 57mm drive pulley, which may be achievable. Having done a few other sums I've also worked out that a 60mm drive pulley would deliver 18.6psi, or 1.26 bar of boost. I'll need to see what size pulleys are available, and indeed what my man doing the mapping can work with. Ive had a quick look at M90 and M112 units, but they're quite a bit more expensive, and more than I'd really want to commit to a project that's mostly messing about to see if the concept works. Add in that I'm not pushing for big numbers, the improved bottom end performance will be nice, but other than that; performance something akin to the stage 1 map on my Discovery will be quite sufficient. My plan is to mount it on the engine where the Air Con compressor would be in the factory setup (above the PAS pump in the picture) then pipe the outlet through the standard intercooler.  As for boost control at idle, I'll have to have a think on it. Diesels run weak by design, so I'd guess if the fuelling is right it should be quite happy, with improved engine braking to boot? I'm coming to think this could work quite well. |
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moglite
Part of things
Posts: 815
Club RR Member Number: 144
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Supercharged Td5moglite
@moglite
Club Retro Rides Member 144
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Apr 30, 2020 13:42:37 GMT
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If you can fit/modify an alternator pulley - then these guys have a good selection pulleysDoes your TD5 use a PK7 belt ? I messed with some LR stuff which was PK7 |
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1967 Morris Oxford Traveller
1979 Toyota LandCruiser BJ40
1993 Daimler Double Six
2007 Volvo XC70 2.4D
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Apr 30, 2020 19:39:12 GMT
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Your going to need at least a eaton m90 to get the same performance as the stock turbo. The m45 is not worth mentioning, and the m62 is getting too hot once your above 12psi.
The reason the merc's use a electro clutch is to reduce engine load at idle, and even with it locked off they make 0 psi at that speed.
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1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp
1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon
1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered!
1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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Apr 30, 2020 19:41:47 GMT
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If you want a fun project, run a turbo and a supercharger with a changeover valve.
Eaton m62 for quick response, then let a gt35 take over.
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1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp
1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon
1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered!
1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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Yes, the Td5 uses a 7PK belt which removes a couple of headaches to start.
I know the M62 is at the top end of its performance running the boost I'd be looking for on a 2.5 litre engine, and an M90 or M112 wouldn't be working anywhere near as hard, however as they are between 4 and 6 times the price of an M62 the idea of messing about with a load of cheap parts to see what happens goes out of the window.
Part of the reason I started looking at the idea was to try and reduce the footprint of the engine to fit it into a project vehicle.
They're not massive to start, but the standard turbo hangs out quite a way to the one side which doesn't help packaging.
If I get into dropping £650 on an M112 just to get started I'd be as well putting some time into making a different exhaust manifold and relocating the standard turbo.
I'm guessing that a decent size intercooler would be able to deal with an increase in charge air temperature, and being a turbo diesel to start it's already got one in the standard pipework.
Can anyone else a similarly cheap but higher flow blower than an M62?
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moglite
Part of things
Posts: 815
Club RR Member Number: 144
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Supercharged Td5moglite
@moglite
Club Retro Rides Member 144
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Can anyone else a similarly cheap but higher flow blower than an M62? 2 x M45's Won't be good for your packaging, but it would be super cool !! |
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1967 Morris Oxford Traveller
1979 Toyota LandCruiser BJ40
1993 Daimler Double Six
2007 Volvo XC70 2.4D
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Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
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Supercharged Td5Phil H
@philhoward
Club Retro Rides Member 133
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Don't be confusing M62's and M65's - an M65 is a Merc version of an M45. I was trawling ebay yesterday and the only M62's I found were more expensive than M90's, at least one certainly had buggered rotors too.
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From what I can see the CLK230 blowers are sensibly priced (around £100) and are M62's?
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Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
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Supercharged Td5Phil H
@philhoward
Club Retro Rides Member 133
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From what I can see the CLK230 blowers are sensibly priced (around £100) and are M62's? Linky? I think you’ll find they’re M45s. It gets confusing as you can get a CLK230 which is a 2.3 and one that’s a 1.8 - early 2.3’s used the M62 and later 2.3’s (and all 1.8’s) have the M45 from what I gather. M111 engine was available in both 1.8 and 2.3; M271 was only up to 1.8 so if it’s got a 271 part number it can’t be an M62. I’ve yet to see anything to the contrary but I think the M62 has an electric clutch on the pulley as well. |
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