60six
Posted a lot
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Posts: 1,657
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Mar 20, 2020 20:37:51 GMT
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I have just had my most costly disaster ever in my car history - not financial, but timewise.
6 months ago picked up a B204 2.0 engine for my 9000 - Had head gasket grief with the old 2.3 and the bottom end was going due to 5 years without it's oil changed by the previous owner.
Over the past 6 months I have transferred all the bits and pieces, installed a cosworth intercooler, gt2871r turbo, 4-1 manifold, v-banded the exhaust manifold, built an exhaust front to rear from scratch, aluminium radiator, redone all the clutch components and hydraulic lines, and finally took it for a gentle first time run yesterday. Everything (I thought) was working correctly and all correct fluids installed.
15 mins later the engine pretty much blew itself apart due to oil pump/blocked oilway failure, about 5 seconds earlier the oil pressure light came on ....!
Where the whole thing locked it took the gearbox with it and the clutch.
6 months of hard work, not much money fortunately as I only purchased the engine for 150
Whilst waiting for a tow from the AA I had already found another b204 lump to put in, and I really am ok with doing the engine replacement again - I really enjoyed doing it and looking forward to doing it again - My S/O thinks there is something seriously wrong with me.
I am gutted a little for not checking the oil pump before I put the engine in, but I have never needed to in the past and was of the opinion that oil pumps on these tend to be quite reliable unless, in my case, the engine had been in a damp envionment before I bought it. The hydraulic tappets were filling up nicely when I first installed it in the garage but I guess some oilways were blocked in the crank department .....
Now I need to dispose of the old engine - Do I just take it down to a scrapyard and give it to them? Can't exactly take it to the tip and I guarantee no parts internally apart from possibly the... actually no. Will not. just scrap!
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Last Edit: Mar 20, 2020 21:51:49 GMT by 60six
Some 9000's, a 900, an RX8 & a beetle
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Mar 20, 2020 20:51:22 GMT
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I gave thousands of pounds to someone to do an engine swap on my Sunny. They bodged it so badly I am now paying basically the same amount out again for someone to unbodge it.
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Mar 20, 2020 21:02:13 GMT
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This Alfa Romeo F12 Van. One of only 3 sold new in the Netherlands. I spent a fortune on it, just to get it drivable enough for a road trip to Northern Italy. To go parts hunting for it. When I was there, I discovered they were mainly used by branches of government ( because Alfa was officially backed in those days ) Anybody who was spending their own money bought a Fiat Van. Yes, it was that bad. At some point, after the road trip, I'd reached my limit and traded it for a regular Giulia Super 4Dr. Some cars deserve to be rare... Years later, I had a Mk1 Transit. Which was a much nicer, better, and more reliable vehicle. Except for the engine , I had a V4 out of a Consul GT in it ( so it was faster than the Alfa too ), but I was not a fan of the V4. If I had the time, money, and knowledge at the time, the better van would have been a combination of the 2. The F12 body on a Transit floor, with a 2 Litre Alfa engine. ( since they both knew how to rust, mating them up would have been easy... )
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Mar 20, 2020 21:17:50 GMT
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I haven't had one big fail, but looking back I've spent silly amounts of money fixing cars (my 2007 Mondeo ST TDCi comes in here) that far exceeded their value, in little but often chunks, I think I'm now about 2.5k into a 700 car that's worth probably about 1k now. Same goes for pretty much every car I've owned, I've never made money on a single one. My Astra is probably about broken even now given I've spent a bit on it but had it 11 years.
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timasorus
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 433
Club RR Member Number: 90
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Mar 20, 2020 21:42:52 GMT
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My Nissan cube is already becoming a horror story 😭 got water getting in somewhere on the roof and the gearbox went bang on the way home Wednesday 👍🏻 So my Astra’s back on daily duties
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banditos ahoy!
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sonus
Europe
Posts: 1,386
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Mar 20, 2020 22:23:25 GMT
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I beleived the bank lady who wanted to sell me home insurance when she told me my home insurance would cover my rented workshop. I later was told it did only cover tools. A £20k mistake
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Current 1968 TVR VIXEN S1 V8 Prototype 2004 TVR T350C 2017 BMW 340i
Previous BMW 325d E91LCI - sold Alfa Romeo GTV - sold Citroen AX GT - at the breakers Ford Puma 1.7 - sold Volvo V50 2.0d - sold MGB GT - wrecked by fire MG ZT 1.8T - sold VW E-golf Electric - sold Mini Countryman 1.6D -sold Land Rover Discovery TD5 - sold
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Mar 20, 2020 22:27:47 GMT
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I had a BMW e39 touring which I sank far too much time, money and effort into. It was a 525TDS that was pretty down-at-heel, but obtained in exchange for a set of alloys that didn't cost me much in the first place, so not too costly initially. It had no MOT and failed on a fair few things. I dropped the rear subframe and replaced every arm, balljoint and the very expensive subframe bushes. I did the brake hoses and brake lines from over the axle right to the master cylinder. I replaced all the front suspension arms. I gave it four new tyres. I serviced it, replaced the leak-off pipes that were leaking, replaced the tailgate which was rotten, which involved soldering about 30 wires above my head in the boot, as BMW had not found it necessary to fit any kind of plug in the loom.
I ran it for a bit, but the rear suspension level sensors both failed while it was parked at work and the system filled the rear airbags up to maximum which made one of them explode. I made the mistake of buying some cheap Chinese bags which leaked instantly so I sent them back and got a pair of Bilstein bags.
The ignition barrel failed and I had to remove the lock part and make a "key" out of a suspension bolt.
The lift pump failed on the way home from the airport leaving me, my other half and our dog stranded on the hard shoulder of the M1 for hours.
A whole load of other things went wrong with it, which I've purged from my mind as it's too stressful.
On the plus side I did about 25,000 miles in it before I threw in the towel and moved it on to someone even more foolish than I.
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scmick
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,491
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Mar 20, 2020 22:48:39 GMT
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60six
Posted a lot
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Posts: 1,657
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Mar 20, 2020 23:39:56 GMT
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This Alfa Romeo F12 Van. One of only 3 sold new in the Netherlands. I spent a fortune on it, just to get it drivable enough for a road trip to Northern Italy. To go parts hunting for it. When I was there, I discovered they were mainly used by branches of government ( because Alfa was officially backed in those days ) Anybody who was spending their own money bought a Fiat Van. Yes, it was that bad. At some point, after the road trip, I'd reached my limit and traded it for a regular Giulia Super 4Dr. Some cars deserve to be rare... Years later, I had a Mk1 Transit. Which was a much nicer, better, and more reliable vehicle. Except for the engine , I had a V4 out of a Consul GT in it ( so it was faster than the Alfa too ), but I was not a fan of the V4. If I had the time, money, and knowledge at the time, the better van would have been a combination of the 2. The F12 body on a Transit floor, with a 2 Litre Alfa engine. ( since they both knew how to rust, mating them up would have been easy... ) That must of been hard to do - Such a beautiful little van.
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Some 9000's, a 900, an RX8 & a beetle
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Mar 20, 2020 23:59:18 GMT
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I have just had my most costly disaster ever in my car history - not financial, but timewise. 6 months ago picked up a B204 2.0 engine for my 9000 - Had head gasket grief with the old 2.3 and the bottom end was going due to 5 years without it's oil changed by the previous owner. Over the past 6 months I have transferred all the bits and pieces, installed a cosworth intercooler, gt2871r turbo, 4-1 manifold, v-banded the exhaust manifold, built an exhaust front to rear from scratch, aluminium radiator, redone all the clutch components and hydraulic lines, and finally took it for a gentle first time run yesterday. Everything (I thought) was working correctly and all correct fluids installed. 15 mins later the engine pretty much blew itself apart due to oil pump/blocked oilway failure, about 5 seconds earlier the oil pressure light came on ....! Where the whole thing locked it took the gearbox with it and the clutch. 6 months of hard work, not much money fortunately as I only purchased the engine for 150 Whilst waiting for a tow from the AA I had already found another b204 lump to put in, and I really am ok with doing the engine replacement again - I really enjoyed doing it and looking forward to doing it again - My S/O thinks there is something seriously wrong with me. I am gutted a little for not checking the oil pump before I put the engine in, but I have never needed to in the past and was of the opinion that oil pumps on these tend to be quite reliable unless, in my case, the engine had been in a damp envionment before I bought it. The hydraulic tappets were filling up nicely when I first installed it in the garage but I guess some oilways were blocked in the crank department ..... Now I need to dispose of the old engine - Do I just take it down to a scrapyard and give it to them? Can't exactly take it to the tip and I guarantee no parts internally apart from possibly the... actually no. Will not. just scrap! Hopefully a related one to make you feel better. About 9 years ago I started an e30/9000 build. We located an absouletly perfect 9000 for it. It was very late model 2.3 (so td04 but non aero/anni) with 66000 miles on it. It had had one elderly owner for the majority of it's life - witnessed by cracking tyres and perfect garaged condition. The chap that had bought it from them was victim to a hit and run so it was perfect for our BMW project. Just as we were about to drop the engine in another engine with an Omega gearbox on came up for sale so we sold this totally mint engine to fund the project. I even popped it in a trailer and dropped it off to the garage doing the work. The mint low mileage engine was going into a 9000 running circa 500hp. The garage putting too thin oil into it. Within a thousand miles I was told it had gone bang. Real shame. Especially knowing how incredibly strong the ngines are and how good this one was.
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This Alfa Romeo F12 Van. One of only 3 sold new in the Netherlands. I spent a fortune on it, just to get it drivable enough for a road trip to Northern Italy. To go parts hunting for it. When I was there, I discovered they were mainly used by branches of government ( because Alfa was officially backed in those days ) Anybody who was spending their own money bought a Fiat Van. Yes, it was that bad. At some point, after the road trip, I'd reached my limit and traded it for a regular Giulia Super 4Dr. Some cars deserve to be rare... Years later, I had a Mk1 Transit. Which was a much nicer, better, and more reliable vehicle. Except for the engine , I had a V4 out of a Consul GT in it ( so it was faster than the Alfa too ), but I was not a fan of the V4. If I had the time, money, and knowledge at the time, the better van would have been a combination of the 2. The F12 body on a Transit floor, with a 2 Litre Alfa engine. ( since they both knew how to rust, mating them up would have been easy... ) That must of been hard to do - Such a beautiful little van. Yeah... It was. But by that time I was out of options...
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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My ‘thing’ is every single car with either a Vauxhall or a Nissan badge on it has been a total money pit/bag of sh1te. Never really had this problem with other marques and I’ve not exactly bought carefully. I’ve had well over 500 cars but a 100% failure rate with these two brands. These are the edited highlights-
Senator. Stopped running on petrol would only run on lpg. It’s rather difficult to start a car from cold on gas. Rayvern hydraulics bullsh1t impressionist version of a airbag system broke constantly. I’ve had more airtight colanders. And the wiring set on fire a couple of times too. Then I found the rear arches and chassis rails were made from newspaper and filler dated a couple months before I bought it. That was the end of that one.
FB victor water pump impeller fell off day after I got it, fixed that and the crank snapped less than a week later. Turned out to have loads of hidden rot mostly in the bulkhead when I took the motor out. Was so bad I plonked it on a scimitar chassis then sold it.
C32 Laurel Drove it 250 miles back from Manchester, head gasket went 2 days later. Been in bits ever since. Even with all the right connections it’s massively difficult and expensive to get parts for. Don’t really want it but I’m stuck with it til I make it work enough to sell.
Nissan Cube. Keeping to the Nissan theme, the head gasket went a couple of days after purchase. It’s a very well looked after car from a friend who’s a Datsun specialist. He was very good about it and gave me some cash back to fix it. Turns out it had warped the block so a new gasket went instantly. Ended up with a newer note engine chucked in. Then the gearbox started playing up. Still works but without overdrive so only gets used locally.
I won’t by either brand now. I’ve had literally hundreds of cars of every other marque going and never had anything as bad as those few!
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Last Edit: Mar 21, 2020 0:15:21 GMT by Dez
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,191
Club RR Member Number: 170
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My cars? A few. In timeline order: -1975 MG Midget ; Bought in 2005 If there is one car I should have put out to dry and frag, this was the car. I bought this car thinking it required a minor restoration and that is how it was sold to me ; the ignition barrel was broken. Forgive me if this sounds familiar. When I went to look at it, and see the keying, in addition to hindsight, I realised this car was a pile. Not a bad looking pile, but still just that. But it looked solid on first glance, the oil was super clean inside, and so I took it away. The hindsight version is the last chap, a teacher at a local college, bought the car to rob it of a set of Revolutions for his MG Midget and the number plate ; 6 GYE for those wondering. After removing dubious washers on the front wheels (so hub-wheel, washer, nuts), It became apparent why they were there. The front studs were too long; That's where the penny dropped on the Revolutions. After replacing the ignition barrel for a new one, I came to fire it up. Then through trying to fire the car up, but almost have a battery explode in my face due to a spanner 'carefully' left between the starter positive terminal and the engine bay, I eventually found the start wasn't turning anything. The mechanism was broken on it. Deliberate or not? Looking more carefully around the car, the sills didn't quite line up right, and it became clear the car was a bit of a pile. the rear boot floor corners on further inspection were made of Polyfiller and underseal, along with the driver's side floorpan being tacked into the aperture from a simple bit of bent metal; that's before I get to the underside of the car being a partial patchwork quilt. But at least it had new lower wings previously fitted right? I only knew that as someone very crudely hacked the inner wings to fit a set of speakers. Yes, it was that bad! Once I had the engine fired up, I found out why the starter motor was bad, the barrel broken and why I almost had a battery explode in my face. The head gasket was knackered. No problem. I'll fit another! Upon finding stripped bolt threads in the block, I had no choice but to bin the engine off, especially as a chance meeting with a guy at the MGOC had me take an Ivor Searle 1500 engine for £50 with decent carbs (much better than mine), an alternator, clutch and an 8,000 mile engine which came out so a K-Series could replace it. Then it became apparent the gearbox was shot on this. Oddly, every 1500 I've had has had a tired 'box, with it not seeming that uncommon. I eventually got rid of it for £1200. Not bad when you consider I bought it for £300 + a rented trailer and a day to get the car from Preston. I barely broke even on that car and it was a struggle to sell it. But what a waste of effort. Or so it seemed at the time. I guess the car taught me a valuable lesson ; never ever go off what an owner says or be pressured into feeling like a timewaster. Or maybe I was unlucky ; I doubt that. But, I was 18, with not much cash and I couldn't take the hit on the car. It was a waste of over a year on a car. I guess for £1200 it was a reasonable Midget, and a big step up from what it was. If that wasn't bad, I once entrusted my dad to buy us a 7 year old car for £1k; we both drove for a living; He doesn't test drive cars like me, but this the the car was off a friend of his. What was it? a 2005 B6 Passat 1.9 TDI S in 2013. This car shouldn't have been that bad. It was a 2 owner car from new, with a friend owning it from it being 1 year old, and it had always been to the local garages to be fixed. He said it was tired, but he was using it daily. When I came to use it, I could not believe how he was using it daily. In short, -Some doors wouldn't close ; bowden cables had gone bad -The engine smoked like a choo-choo train and had a misfire off idle -The fan heater didn't work. Great for when it rained -It had a horrible and dangerous twitch in going onto an uneven surface at 50MPH, like some of the gentle bends on the A5. -It also had a habit of not starting which one day became a non-start. Perfect with a car that has an EPB which then couldn't be released. Oh wait! If this was anyone else, they've have sacked this car off and got rid. My long suffering garage/MOT tester normally will have a bit of banter about some of my personal cars, like saying "Pug GTis can be fragile so I'm not a fan, and going "More BL stuff"? That B6 is the only car to date where he said, "Cut your losses, and move on". He was right. My dad was stubborn though. He did not want to be renting a car off our firm at quite a cost. And so the parts bills came including: -New EPB calipers -New door Bowden cables -New camshaft with followers ; they were shot -A bodged wire to the heater to get it to work -New rear arms to get the rear to drive straight -Steering lock rework. Finally, it drove nicely! I could see why people bought these. It almost seemed like this work was worthwhile. We had a car which was superb now. Until the dif decided it wanted to make a break for freedom. Given 5 speed 'boxes then were £500+ secondhand and it had taken out the DMF and clutch with it, we then made the decision to part the car out. The below photo was taken as we moored the thing up in a layby by where the diff went. No idiot stole it, and so it was fragged out by us over a period of time. On the plus side, the EPBs went super quick. There is one more car, but I'll save that for another time .
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shin2chin
Part of things
Making curse word cars slightly better
Posts: 820
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Sept 24, 2020 10:25:31 GMT
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My E39 touring was a car I would like to forget. My most modern "retro" looked great on inspection and was quite cheap up until the clutch went just outside Margate coming home from holiday. New clutch and dual mass flywheel cost what I paid for the car. Then 2 jacking points welding for MOT which I didn't have time to do myself. New radiator after the tank burst then I had had enough and sold it for the price I paid. 1st time I've ever made a loss on a car and I have vowed to never own another modern (post 2000) car again.
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1977 PORSCHE 2.0na 924 1974 VW Beetle 1600
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V-Force
Part of things
I like Hondas.
Posts: 846
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Sept 24, 2020 10:27:38 GMT
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Searching for a daily about 5 years ago (bloody hell, where has that time gone?!) This popped up for £900 on Facebook having just blown its head gasket: Was told it'd be a £350 job to get the HG replaced, and it couldn't be more complicated than that really, could it? After all it's a Toyota, and the engine is the legendary 4AGE 20V Blacktop which is known for being Not Rubbish. Paid the man via paypal, sent a recovery driver to get it (another £250) and booked it in at my local Japanese specialist. After stripping it it became clear that the car had been bodged to high heaven, all the water galleries were jammed solid with K seal, the VVT pulley had been welded solid (presumably to stop it knocking) A new pulley was £450 alone, and had to come from Japan which took weeks. All in all it cost £1350 to get it running, then a week or two later while doing New Years Eve taxi runs the water pump failed, it dumped its coolant and started getting hot. Can't remember what that cost, but I got that quite easily from a Toyota dealer. It never ran 100% perfectly but occasionally it'd pick up it's feet and run properly for a bit, and it was a lot of fun when it wanted to be. Sounded fantastic too, but the ownership experience wasn't great. I'd love an unmolested one.
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1999 Impreza WRX typeR STI Version 5 Limited 1999 Civic VTi-S Aerodeck 2005 Bora TDI daily
Several other 90s Hondas (shhh they're sleeping)
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Paul Y
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,948
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Sept 24, 2020 11:15:34 GMT
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Mmmm... There have been a few that is for sure, but lets start with this little beauty shall we. Audi RS2 - Hand built by Porsche for the Ferry family to go skiing. What could possibly go wrong.... At the time I was using my GT3 (sorry) as a daily, great fun but turning up at customers in a speed yellow Porsche was, in hindsight, not the smartest move so I wanted to get something a little more low key but still fun and, most importantly, fast. Bought the first one I looked at, which in hindsight again, was a mistake, but it was relatively low mileage, had a great service history and was unmolested. Plus I needed a car now, never a good place to be. Paid £15K cash for it (this was 2000) and drove it the 200 miles home. All was going well for the first 100 miles and then it started to lose power. Nothing noticeable at first but by the time I arrived Chez PY it was pretty obvious that all was not well under the bonnet. Quick visit to my local Porsche specialist revealed that the radiator was FULL of bars leak (it wasn't the week before when I went to see it) and the temp gauge had been, somehow rigged up so that it showed normal. That cost around £2K to put right - head gasket, radiator, head skim etc. The seller point blank refused to admit any wrong doing - lets just say that he was 'persuaded' that a contribution to the bill was in his interest... Went down hill from there, 1000 miles later the gearbox seized, it ended up being cheaper to get a new gearbox than the parts required. £5K. 9 months after purchase went in for its MOT - ended up having to have new shocks and springs at each corner, cant remember what I went for in the end but think they were some super dooper upgraded set with lowering springs etc - £1500 Noticed that the side strips were loose on the passengers door - they had been stuck on with Tiger Seal and ended up pulling the paint off the door. Why were they stuck on? Because the brackets designed to hold them place had all corroded along with the doors. Another £2k. Then the turbo went Bang, big style... £2K So in my first year of ownership I had spent £12,500 on a, supposed low mileage, hand built, Porsche... That didn't include the £500 on a tune (that was actually worth the money as it ended up putting 444hp to the wheels and was done after the gearbox was replaced in case you asked) The regular £800 tyre requirement - it seems to eat them over a 3-4K period and and and... When it was all going well it was a great car, fast comfortable and fun to drive but over my initial 18months of ownership that was probably only the final 3 months. Completely fell out of love with it and couldn't sell it at any price. Ended up going on consignment to a dealer as I just wanted it gone. Ended up there for 6months before coming back with 1800 extra miles on the clock, warped disks and a blown head gasket... Got it recommissioned by my local Porsche chap who ended up buying it from me for £12K including the work needed to get it back into good order. Again, in hindsight I should have just kept it especially as they are now worth £60K plus. But I every time I drove it I was waiting for the next problem.... If I can find the photos of my Playboy sponsored Renault 21 touring car I will tell the tale of why you should never buy an old race car without driving it, however cheap it is.... P.
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Last Edit: Sept 24, 2020 11:17:14 GMT by Paul Y
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Sept 24, 2020 13:23:24 GMT
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I don't think I've ever had a costly mistake, as I've never paid more than £1200 for a car. I've had a few cars that I've just not had the use out of to justify even that modest expense/outlay though. Of all of those, the worst was probably a really tidy old E30 320i. It was bought running fine but the slave cylinder went after 24 hours and I lost interest as I'd already bought a Mk2 Golf GTI, so the BMW got sold on for less than I paid for it, having only been driven twice.
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Sept 24, 2020 14:15:41 GMT
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If I can find the photos of my Playboy sponsored Renault 21 touring car I will tell the tale of why you should never buy an old race car without driving it, however cheap it is.... I would very much like to hear this story, greatly enjoyed the Audi RS2 tale
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Paul Y
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,948
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Sept 24, 2020 17:05:01 GMT
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Place holder whilst I try and find more pictures. This is from a later add after I had sold it on - first picture is outside my garage with the 56 in the background - that was a long time ago! P. Renault 21 Group N: You Know You Want To A Penthouse centrefold car, endurance racer and very rare Renault to boot! The Renault 21 Turbo is a exceptionally rare car. If you think it's hard tracking down an unmolested 5 Turbo in 2015, try finding a 21. The little 5 is practically commonplace compared to the boxy saloon, probably explained by the fact everyone did and will want the 5 more than the 21... "Chaps, how do we make the 21 sexy?" "Chaps, how do we make the 21 sexy?"In case you hadn't guessed, this is not a roadgoing Renault 21 Turbo. At least, not at the moment. It's a Group N-spec Renault 21 Turbo, one with a fascinating history and one crying out to be restored to its former glory. Surely other people share a passion for unloved fast French curios? According to the ad, this is the last remaining Group N 21. You can't imagine there were many to start with... It began its life in Holland but was soon sold to Renault UK and competed in the first 24-hour race held in Britain, at Snetterton in 1989. It was driven by Giles Butterfield, Charles Challenger, Charles Rickett and Peter Sneller, perhaps the four most splendidly named racing drivers ever known. It was also sponsored by Penthouse. Yes really, check out the pictures. They were so proud of the alliance in fact that this very car was the centrefold image in the May 1988 issue. Classy. But sadly after the glamour and girls of the Snetterton 24 Hours (plus the Penthouse shoot), this 21 went into storage in 1991. Nearly a quarter of a century later it is being sold, currently residing in Bicester and looking a little sorry for itself. Unused racing cars, especially those without their liveries, nearly always do. There are still some fairly clear clues to its past though, namely the side-exit exhaust, cut-off switch and gigantic fuel tanks. Turbine wheels still very cool Turbine wheels still very coolHere's where the car gets really interesting. The 21 Turbo is being sold by Velocity Automobiles, a garage with a strong Renault appreciation judging by their Avantime, Clio V6 and Alpines for sale too. Though it has never been road registered, a letter of authority from Renault means it can be converted if you wish. An intriguing possibility, but surely a racing car should remain a racing car? You know how people can be about left-hand drive too. The advert states the car can be provided as is or 'restored to your requirements'. Now then. Brought back to full health - hopefully someone can sort a livery too - it could compete in a Classic Touring Car Racing Club series, plus surely a few sprints and hillclimbs too. There wouldn't be any danger of seeing another at the very least! But whatever the final outcome for this 21, let's just celebrate that it's here and available. It will probably be a fairly time consuming project, and it's far from the obvious choice, but surely the scarcity is a big part of the appeal. As for a price, a Group N 405 Mi16 was being sold privately for £5K recently; this car will likely be more than that given the provenance. Imagine if you could get the two together... RENAULT 21 TURBO GROUP N Price: POA Why you should: Turbocharged and 80s touring car Why you shouldn't: Not a Sierra, probably needs lot of TLC See the original advert here.
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I only just spotted this, time to have a read!
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