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The Ford Essex V6 is generally quite a robust engine, originally the block was designed to be adaptable as a Diesel unit as well as a petrol engine, (although the Diesel option did not ultimately materialise). As an engine it had two significant weak points however, one of which was the camshaft timing gear. In the earliest versions of the Essex this had 'fibre' timing gear, this proved particularly fragile and was replaced by gearing with nylon teeth which was somewhat of an improvement but still proved problematic. The unreliable timing gear problem was eventually provided with a remedy; replacement timing gear in either steel, aluminium or alloy.
I have finally persuaded my Dad that, after quarter of a century of ownership, he should replace the original timing gear on his 50 year old Gilbern Genie to reduce the possibility of engine failure & resultant damage. He was using the car as a daily for many years, he put a lot of miles on it and drove it hard. There's a lot of anecdotes online about the steel timing gear being particularly noisy, some think the alloy gear noisier. Lots of people say they've had no issues at all.
I was hoping to get some opinions from people who have had first hand experience of fitting steel or alloy timing gear to their Essex, specifically problems. I'm also interested to hear of recommended kits / suppliers or kits / suppliers to avoid.
Any assistance much appreciated.
Chris
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Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
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Short and sweet: Get one. Steel are generally noisier (almost like a supercharger in some cases) and 2 variants of aluminium ones around; UK produced and South African sourced. The SA kits include a new crank gear which must be used at the same time as the helix angle was changed. Ignore any workshop figures for backlash as the materials are now different. Aluminium/alloy ones tend to quieten down more and quicker compared to steel - some make no noise from time of fit and others wail like a banshee to start with. I had a gear fail - puts a downer on your day to say the least. Speak nicely to reliantreviver of this parish for supply. I’m sure he make you special price if he’s got any left.
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Last Edit: Mar 17, 2020 6:17:51 GMT by Phil H
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,188
Club RR Member Number: 170
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As stated, the metal gears fix the issue, at the cost of them being noisy, which does drive some people up the wall. The fact is however, they have survived on your dad's Genie for this long. If you are that concerned, maybe changing them every 6 years like a timing belt is one solution . peteh1969 and PhoenixCapri are worth adding to this convo, as both have direct experience in this area, not opinions and wives tales which people like spouting about to appear knowledgeable.
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Last Edit: Mar 17, 2020 6:38:26 GMT by ChasR
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Mar 17, 2020 11:08:12 GMT
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Get one. While you're at it, replace the hex oil pump drive in the distributor. That removes another of the many Essex failure points
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scimjim
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,503
Club RR Member Number: 8
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Mar 17, 2020 11:56:48 GMT
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The hex drive can be examined quite easily (and I haven’t heard of a failure in over 25 years) unlike the cam gear which fails without warning and you still hear of regularly. I have steel in one engine and alloy in another, the steel is a bit noisier (although it has got quieter with use over the 10 years I’ve had it) but personally I like the sound 😀 The alloy one is much quieter (in a race engine that’s not currently fitted).
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Mar 17, 2020 11:56:49 GMT
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I fitted the (alloy?) South African sourced timing gear which I got from the guy who was sourcing and importing them at the time for the Scimitar owners club (I wont name him as I don't know if he's still the person supplying them or not). Fitting it was easy even for me. A one day job and I was finished early enough to go for a test drive before the sun went down IIRC. It made no discernible noise that I could detect, and it never gave me any issues. Drove the car long and occasionally hard for three years, then sold the car, and the new owners crashed it. Therefore I can confirm that it remained fit for purpose for the remainder of that cars life
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scimjim
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,503
Club RR Member Number: 8
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Mar 17, 2020 12:05:38 GMT
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This is the only time I’ve seen one crack and not self-destruct. The engine was removed for a clicking noise, I’m not convinced this was the cause but it was incredibly lucky! As Tim says, I imported alloy gears from SA for several years (since passed over to reliant-reviver) where they produced the Essex under the SAMCOR name until the early 90s where they kept the Essex rather than change to the Cologne - even fitting it to the Sierra and ending up with EFi, hydraulic tappets and the 3.4L version.
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Mar 18, 2020 11:00:09 GMT
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Chris The first thing to do is to strip the front of the engine down and find out what condition the fitted timing gear is in, I say this as you said your farther has used the car a lot and by the sounds of it with no problems, the oil will of been changed regularly and the engine not thrashed to with in an inch of it's life I would assume so why go to the expense of a new very expensive timing gear if it's not needed, It has been found that the fiber gears only failed due to over strain on the engines and in frequent oil changes and servicing not through bad design. I went through all of the same what if's before I stripped my Essex V4 which came before the V6 and found that there was nothing wrong with it an it was in perfect condition, I'm the 12th owner and it had done 89678 miles before I had it and has been looked after buy the previous owners.
Strip the front down and check it all before potentially blowing time and money on something probably does not need changing, it's only gaskets that you would need to change anyway at the moment.
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Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
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Mar 18, 2020 12:37:40 GMT
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The outer ring is a plastic - it has a lifespan less than metal through age and heat cycling. Its life can be shortened by lack of oil changes and overheating which is why some failed 20 years ago and many are still going but they have a finite life. It could last another 50 years, or it could fail tomorrow. Depends how much of a gambling man you are. One could by sheer numbers say a V4 one will last half as long again as a V6 one as there's only 2/3rds of the load on it?
Your call at the end of the day.
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Mar 18, 2020 13:20:42 GMT
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From a mechanical engineering stand point you are right and wrong, yes the materials have a finite life expectancy and if the plastic gear was the driving gear and not the driven gear you would be correct, but the loading on the driven gear is not small due to the design of the gear teeth and that there is an extremely small load needed to turn the camshaft, move the cam followers, turn the distributor and the oil pump weather it be V4 or V6.
It's a case of if it's not broke don't fix it.
What ever is done at the end of the day the front of the engine has to come apart regard less so mite as well check it all and change it only if needed no need to spend the money on an expensive part if it's not needed and may never bee needed.
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Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
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Mar 18, 2020 14:22:25 GMT
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Only difference is the cost of a set of (good) head gaskets, valves and possibly pushrods/guide plates being needed (depending on how fast the engine was turning at the time).
Personally I’d change it before - less work in the long run plus you wouldn’t need to drop the sump to remove the teeth but that’s just my opinion.
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My apologies for not having properly responded to every comment, over the past few days I've had to do a lot of planning for the COVID lockdown to keep my elderly parents safe. I'm grateful for the contributions so far! The decision has already been made that this work needs to be done due to potential for failure and peace of mind, the only thing now is which kit. I'm hoping that reliantreviver will chip in when he's next online. We know the Gilbern had an engine rebuild when it was just a few years old, I'd guess there's a good chance this could have been due to a timing gear failure.
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reliantreviver
Part of things
"It will be getting fixed up come summer..." (year undefined)
Posts: 412
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I have been summoned.
Get where Pete is coming from, i'm all for being rational and saving money where possible. But in this instance I can't say I agree.
A tufnol or composite gear can, and on a long enough timescale will, fail.
Meanwhile, an alloy one will not (well for all intents and purposes it's unheard of)
Not really an "expensive part" compared to the alternative cost of failure. There are no sources of new OEM, so you are looking at retaining the original used item following inspection, fitting unknown used (ill advised) or sourcing NOS which you will need to track down and then pay some probably not an insurmountable sum for anyway.
Steel timing gears often whine unless closely matched for backlash.
Alloy ones are far less likely to whine noticeably, it is unusual for them to do so and relates to the tolerance of the distance between centres on the engine block boring being wider than normal.
I am off course biased, I stock the kits via my business and you have already contacted me via a certain sales platform.
Should you wish to purchase direct I can arrange that and the price will be knocked down accordingly in respect to the saving on fees.
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Current: Reliant "750" Super Robin, Scimitar SS1s - 2 x 1300, 1 x 1600, 1 x 1800ti. 76 years off the road between them! Also - Mitsubishi Galant Sport and Hyundai Coupe Gen3
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Mar 19, 2020 15:28:45 GMT
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My apologies for not having properly responded to every comment, over the past few days I've had to do a lot of planning for the COVID lockdown to keep my elderly parents safe. I'm grateful for the contributions so far! The decision has already been made that this work needs to be done due to potential for failure and peace of mind, the only thing now is which kit. I'm hoping that reliantreviver will chip in when he's next online. We know the Gilbern had an engine rebuild when it was just a few years old, I'd guess there's a good chance this could have been due to a timing gear failure. That's great news that the engine has been rebuilt once already you may not need to change it if you remove the fuel pump you can see the timing gear easy way to check first.
Lets hope it has been done.
In a similar boat with my mom 90 and in the end family is more important.
Stay safe and keep us all up to date with what you find?
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My apologies for not having properly responded to every comment, over the past few days I've had to do a lot of planning for the COVID lockdown to keep my elderly parents safe. I'm grateful for the contributions so far! The decision has already been made that this work needs to be done due to potential for failure and peace of mind, the only thing now is which kit. I'm hoping that reliantreviver will chip in when he's next online. We know the Gilbern had an engine rebuild when it was just a few years old, I'd guess there's a good chance this could have been due to a timing gear failure. That's great news that the engine has been rebuilt once already you may not need to change it if you remove the fuel pump you can see the timing gear easy way to check first.
Lets hope it has been done.
In a similar boat with my mom 90 and in the end family is more important.
Stay safe and keep us all up to date with what you find?
Yes, get your mother locked down with doorstep grocery deliveries! OK, my approach towards this has been less than thorough and based upon assumptions, (i.e. that the engine is still running on the early fibre or nylon timing gear). At the moment I don't have the time or inclination to start tinkering and I don't want my Dad to start doing any work on it, he's in his 80s, his approach to maintenance is not as methodical as it used to be and I don't want him causing more problems than he's solved. That said, I'm working towards pulling the drawbridge up for the next few months to keep them safe so that will result in ample time to investigate as it will now have to be put on the back-burner. Your 'removing the fuel pump' tip will be useful as I'd assumed I'd need to remove the timing cover which would immediately mean new gaskets would be needed. Having reviewed the file for this car I can see that the original engine was swapped out for a reconditioned engine in 1979 when the car was 10 years old. I'm guessing that whoever reconditioned the engine knew their business as it's still pulling like the proverbial train. The poor guy who owned the car at that time got saddled with a catalogue of major bills which would have, almost certainly, exceeded the value of the car by some considerable margin. Would these replacement steel / alu / alloy gears have been available back in '79?reliantreviver - not trying to waste your time. With origins in West-Walian farming stock my Dad is notoriously difficult to part from his pennies so I only want to lay the most attractive options before him!
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Last Edit: Mar 20, 2020 7:15:47 GMT by MkX
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Mar 20, 2020 11:12:48 GMT
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Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
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Mar 20, 2020 11:29:39 GMT
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In 1979, a Ford (new) timing gear would still have been available and would the the nylon-tooth version. I've not seen mention of a metal timing gear back then aside from the possible use inside a race engine (although they tended to use the nylon tooth versions and "Life" them very short - a season if that).
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Mar 20, 2020 12:22:50 GMT
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Not sure when Swaymar first started making them but I used one in my race engine from 1989, and being straight cut they really did howl, especially at 8000rpm !
For piece of mind on the o/p's I would fit an aluminium item, really not that much noisier than standard.
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scimjim
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,503
Club RR Member Number: 8
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Mar 20, 2020 20:00:04 GMT
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I doubt helical alloy or steel gears were available in the 70s or 80s.
The steel and alloy aftermarket ones we’re talking about, aren’t straight cut of course.
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Hi all thanks for adding me and herewith accept my my first input, as I own a 1972 Capri GTV6 165 HP D-port Special here in Melbourne Australia. I love both very much, and currently renewing the Crash Pad and ParcelShelf ENTIRELY & to spec. As an Engineer, I must agree with peteh1969. If it aint broke leave it be. I change my oil and Z38 Oil Filter every 12 months regardless of miles that incidentally NEVER exceeds 2000 per year. It may appear as overkill, but decades of personal experience in the motor trade has proven to me this is the most SENSIBLE OPTION as dictated to me by my Dad and his Dad; both fully qualified Automotive and Marine Engineers. They must be right as in the last 50 years, not one of my collection of cars Ive owned, and still own up to date, for over 40 years have experienced a single failure. If memory serves, the Essex V6 is NOT an interference engine. Please confirm or correct me ! I include my Ford Australia Capri with its original factory "Wild Plum" Livery. Since these pics, I have deleted the Speedy Hub Caps and fitted small steel/chrome NOS Domes plus Black plastic Caps on the 16 nuts as done on Falcons, Escorts and Cortinas
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