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Last weekend was a productive one on the TVR, starting with wrapping up the fuel hose replacement job I started earlier. I was held up with the wrong filter, so I did some more research and ordered what I hoped was the correct filter (using the number off the existing filter)  Thankfully it was the right one. The early cars with the filter under the car use a Ryco Z399 filter. A set of nice new copper crush washers and on went the fitting  I had to replace the hose from the pump to the filter, as I was doing away with the accumulator, and the existing hose was both incorrectly rated, and starting to perish   1/4" hose is pretty small, and not that common here, but I found Repco stocks Gates Barricade hose, which is bloody expensive per meter, but some of the best hose available. You'll note in the photo above that the old hose is J30 R6 rated, which is safe to about 50PSI in an injection system (despite saying a higher rating on the hose). The Bosch MFI system runs at about 80PSI, so although that hose had been working OK, I wasn't going to trust sticking with an R6 hose. The Gates Barricade hose is safe for 225PSI as it is a J30R14T2 rated hose.  Since I had been doing all this work on the bench first, it was time to move to under the car, where I got a timely reminder to always check your lifting points. The TVR had been in the air on the Quickjacks for a week now, and unknown to me it had settled on the front blocks, and they had started to tilt and slip. It's possible it would've been OK, but it's not worth the risk. I dropped the car back down and reseated all the blocks. ALWAYS check the car is secure before getting under it, even if that means giving it a good shake or shove. Better it falls off the stands onto the ground, than onto your head.  With the car safely in the air again, I refit the new filter to the mount and secured the bolts and ground straps. I wanted a nice straight hose from the pump to filter, but due to the proximity and angle, the only way I could do it was a loop back from the filter. At least this time I don't need to wrap the hose in tape to stop it from being rubbed through where it was touching the body, as it had been...   And here is the new hose  Once everything was happily in place, I torqued both banjo fittings up with my torque wrench. They don't take much, just 18-20NM, but it's essential they are torqued correctly. I have heard much talk about not using the moulded hex on the ends of the filter or disaster can strike. I don't know how true that is, but I didn't need to secure the filter as the mounting clamp held it tight anyway.  After mixing some more injector cleaner into 10L of fresh petrol, I slowly poured it into both tanks, keeping a close eye on the new hose joins. When everything appeared to be dry and sealed, I reconnected the battery, and turned the key and listened as the system primed. I let it prime for a short time and checked all the high pressure lines, and once satisfied they were dry, I fired the beast up. Everything still looked good. Winning. With the car still in the air, I planned some more maintenance. I wasn't sure when the last time the driveline oils were done, so like usual, I spent hours pouring over fluid specs, and eventually settled on a Nulon fully synthetic 75W-85 GL4 for both the gearbox and diff. Nulon sells it in these nifty little baggies, which at first I thought were a gimmick, but I'll tell you now, its way better than a bottle.  The gearbox is a bit of a pain to get at due to the exhaust, which chills out directly under the drain plug, and allows only a small space to access the fill plug. Always undo the fill plug first, just in case. One thing that always bothers me is getting oil on the exhaust, as even if you hose it with degreaser or brake clean, it'll still stink as it burns off. There was no way to avoid oil pouring on the exhaust with the TVR, so I settled for being smart and using some plastic sheet wrapped around the exhaust. Worked a treat.  The old fluid actually looked really good, so I suspect it hasn't done a lot of miles in the car, but its probably still been in there a few years. The diff was easier to access, with the drain plug smack bang on the bottom, and the fill plug on the back. Both were bloody tight but came off when I asked nicely.  Yeah, the diff will probably need some seals at some point, but that's down the list a bit for now. I used three and a half bags (1L each) between the gearbox and diff. Here we see the squeezy bois chilling at the watering hole  One thing I noticed with the bags is that it can be hard to get the last little bit out. What you can do is join the two bags together, and drain one into the other. I also reused hoses between bags, leaving me with one unused, clean, hose to stick back onto the half full bag to use later.  With the fluids changed (except engine oil, I still need to do that) I lowered the car back down and took it for a quick spin. Unfortunately the running issue seems to be getting worse. It used to just be under load at about 4000rpm the engine would fall flat and cut out. Now it happens randomly and is almost undrivable. Watch the video with subtitles on as I note where it has issues. You can see it revs happily with no load at the end. I had my suspicions of what it could be, but I needed to do more testing. |
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Sept 4, 2019 10:58:43 GMT
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As mentioned previously, I'm having some running issues and I need to try and work out what it is. The issue has been getting worse the more I run and drive the car. It previously only happened under load at about 4000rpm, where the engine would fall on its face and cut out like you had turned the key off. If you kept the throttle steady it would recover with a surge as the revs dropped, but as soon as it got up to about 4k again, it would cut out. When stationary, and not under load, it will happily rev to its 6k redline. It's a very annoying issue. I had a couple of suspicions of what it could be, but I needed to do some testing to narrow it down. My first suspicion was that I must be losing spark, as the engine cuts so abruptly and I felt that if it were fuel it would kinda stutter out. The first thing I noticed was that the replacement coil the previous owner had fitted was a Bosch GT40. This is a 12v coil, and from what I have discovered, widely known to have issues with electronic ignitions. Now, the ignition system on my car is both a ballasted system and electronic. A ballasted system runs a resistor on the power feed to the coil, dropping the voltage, meaning the coil doesn't see 12v. So I was already running the coil under voltage.  After testing and confirming the resistor was still in place, I removed this coil and refitted the original Ford coil that came with the car.  Changing this resulted to a smoother idle (maybe, but probably a placebo), but the engine still cut out. The next thing was to check the lead positions, cap and rotor. I note that the cap and rotor have been replaced, and the old ones were with the car. The old cap is stuffed, but the old rotor looked OK, so I swapped that in after a quick clean. No change. Next was to confirm if I did lose spark or not. The only way I could think of was by thinking out of the box and using my timing light... So I connected it up, and strapped it to the wiper so I could see it when driving. Sure enough, when the engine cut, the light was still flashing away happily. That indicates I have spark (although, not if I have a good strong spark, but some spark is better than none).  So this points me down a different path. I have air, and I have spark. Could it be fuel after all? I posted up on a few forums asking for help, and got some great tips on where to start looking. One of the easiest to do was to check the sensor plate in the AFM was clean. This plate is hinged, and lifts up with airflow as it gets sucked into the engine, which in turn pushes a plunger up and down to control fuel flow. Well, although the top looked reasonably clean, the underside was filthy (probably thanks to the incorrect air filter that was fitted)   I gave this a thorough clean and made sure it was spotless. This made no change, but its good to know its clean now. I also, once again, checked the intake tube and boot for splits or cracks, but none found. All vacuum lines (all two or three of them) were checked, all OK. One thing that makes me suspect its possibly fuel, is the state of the new plugs I fitted. Even after a couple of runs around the block, a couple look almost unused. Maybe lean? From 1 to 6 in order.       This is leaving a couple of possibilities, ones that I cannot test without further equipment. First is an intake manifold leak or the likes. Today my smoke machine arrived, so I could test this.  It's just a cheapie, but makes a good amount of smoke, and has a pump to actually blow it out under pressure.  After a quick test, I modified it to work how I needed it to. I salvaged a cap from a CRC rust convertor can, drilled a hole in it, glued some hose into it, and glued the cap onto the front of the smoke machine (as it just has a big nozzle on the front normally, for maximum smoke dispersion in da clubz)  This hose then goes into a rubber glove with a finger cut off it. I find using one of these seals the intake pipe nicely with the wrist of the glove, but doesn't crush the rubber hose.  I don't know if it's good or bad, but smoke testing the intake shows there are no intake or vacuum leaks. I tested with the throttle open and closed, to check the intake hose for leaks as well as the plenum/manifold, but nothing, not even a weep.  So what left? Well, two things really. I need to test the fuel pressures of the system, but because the fuel fittings use banjo bolts and hard lines instead of rubber hoses, I can't use my existing pressure testing kit. I have a new kit on the way, which has all the fittings I need to connect into the KJetronic system. This will tell me if there is an issue with the Warm Up Regulator or the main pressure regulator. The whole system relies on having the correct pressures, so even a few PSI difference can make it all turn to custard. The other thing I need to do, once I have tested the pressures, is to remove the fuel distributor and injectors. I need to see if the plunger in the fuel distributor is clean and moving freely, or if it's sticky. I also need to check the flow and spray pattern from the injectors. It's possible either, or both, of these things are causing an issue. My main theory at the moment is a sticking fuel plunger, which is causing the engine to starve of fuel when it demands more. The worst thing you can do with a KJet system is to leave old fuel in it and not run the car regularly. This car has been off the road for years, and I don't know when it was last started and run, or how old the fuel in the system was. KJet runs at such fine tolerances that even a slight gum or varnish on a component can make it upset. I'm determined to work this issue out and get the KJet working properly as it's a cool system, and one I haven't worked with before. I have everything I need to convert to EFI and Speeduino, but I'm trying hard to resist that urge. Now we wait. Once the pressure test kit arrives, Its game on. |
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Since I'm still waiting on the pressure testing kit to arrive, I got impatient and did some more testing. I wanted to remove the injectors and see if any of them were leaking and what the spray pattern is. The intake plenum needs to come off. before this can be removed though, the coolant block on the front needs to be unbolted. Unbolting this saves disconnecting the coolant hoses.  All the other hoses got removed, and the 7th injector was removed from the plenum. The plenum is held down with eight long bolts that go into the inlet manifold. Just a note, these bolts aren't sealed off from the inside of the plenum, so will need sealant on them upon reassembly.  With everything disconnected and unbolted, the plenum just lifts off  Removing the injectors is fairly simple. The clamp on the pipes (which goes above, below and between the pipes), as visible in the lower Lh corner of the above photo, has to be removed to allow enough slack in the pipes, but otherwise its a case of removing the single bolt per injector, and then pulling it free from the manifold. They are meant to be sealed in, but mine came out suspiciously easily.  The rubber collar is weird. I presume/hope there is a normal O-Ring under it, as that is what all the parts manuals say it should have, and there seems to be no part for that rubber collar. I'll have to carefully remove and reuse the collar.  All the injectors look pretty rough, but I guess thats what 39 years of sitting in the intake looks like. The ends all look clean enough, with no obvious buildup. I did note that cylinder 6 was very wet upon removal, and a couple of others were damp. The engine has been off and cold for about a week, with no pressure in the lines. Testing them isnt rocket surgery, just pop them all into jars, fire up the pump and see if they produce any fuel (which they all did to some degree), which indicates either the fuel plunger is letting excess fuel through, or the injectors are leaking. Further investigations show its probably a 50:50 on leaking or adjustment causing it.  With the pump running, lift the sensor plate in the AFM to its stop and observe the flow and pattern from the injectors. All mine seem to flow roughly the same, but the flow pattern out of all of them appeared to be rubbish, with minimal misting and heading off in all directions. That's good, it confirms that buying a whole set of replacement injectors was the right decision! One other thing that has been bugging me, was the sensor plate in the AFM. This is meant to be a finely calibrated instrument, but I think someone has mucked with mine before.  You can see in the above photo that it looks like the sensor plate (the disk in the middle of the cone) is sitting high with a gap under it. Well, it is. From the below diagram, you can see the sensor plate sits at the bottom of a cone. As air comes in from the filter at the bottom, it comes in under the plate and a combination of that air coming in, and engine vacuum in the intake, lifts the plate to allow air into the intake. Lifting the plate also lifts the fuel plunger, increasing fuel flow.  The plate should be set to a specific height, which is more or less with the highest point of the plate flush with the lip at the bottom of the cone (before where it tapers outwards again, under the plate).  Mine was clearly sitting a lot higher than that. Not to mention the other issue...  The plate was off-centre. I even thought the plate was too big to fit through the opening, but it was just because it was off-centre. I carefully backed off the center bolt, and centered the plate (this should be done with feeler gauges, but I did it by eye this time)  Now it fits through the opening  It was still sitting too high though  There is a spring under the plate that sets the height. The manual says to adjust it with pliers, but I'm damned if I can bend the thing.  I'll keep at it and see if I can tweak it. The other thing I noticed is that you can hear and feel the plunger moving when you manipulate the sensor plate. I'm not sure how normal it is, but my plunger seems very slow to return to the zero position. It doesn't seem to bind and it moves smoothly, it's just slow to return. I'll be removing and cleaning this in the future anyway. So that's where I'm at. I'm waiting for a set of new injectors to arrive, and I need to remove the fuel distributor and WUR to clean them out. I'm planning on setting everything up from zero since I have no idea what's been done to this by previous bodgers. |
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,880
Club RR Member Number: 39
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Kelvinators TVR TasminDarkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
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Sept 9, 2019 10:45:18 GMT
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Takes me back to when I was trying to sort out running issues on my old MK1 Golf GTI - The need for a slim long screwdriver to adjust one setting or another always sticks. Same system is on my mates XR3i engined Ginetta G32 so I will watch this with interest as who knows when it will come in handy.
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Sept 9, 2019 11:58:32 GMT
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As ever, interesting, educational, but with a slightly more quirky motor than usual. None the worse for that. I remember in one of your SD1 threads you talked about fuel lines and the crappiness thereof. Sent me out to check all mine, front to back. Whilst they were fine then, I think I may just be doing it again, and should really make it part of normal service checks. Oh, and bookmarked!  Edit to add that we don't get gasoline without ethanol any more here. Apparently, some senator's cousin had a load of sugar crop that needed a new home!  |
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Last Edit: Sept 9, 2019 12:23:14 GMT by georgeb
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Kelvinators TVR Tasminpeteh1969
@peteh1969
Club Retro Rides Member 107
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Sept 9, 2019 15:04:19 GMT
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Also the throttle body shafts wear on those which can cause a vacuum leak (air being sucked in) which show up as a lean mixture.
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Sept 9, 2019 19:39:54 GMT
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following .
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Sept 10, 2019 0:46:20 GMT
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Also the throttle body shafts wear on those which can cause a vacuum leak (air being sucked in) which show up as a lean mixture. Is this obvious to check, like play in the shaft or something? I think it's unlikely, and the smoke test showed no leaks, but worth a check. |
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Kelvinators TVR Tasminpeteh1969
@peteh1969
Club Retro Rides Member 107
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Sept 10, 2019 10:43:06 GMT
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Yes but you need to disconnect the cable then check for any play by gently rocking and lifting the shaft/quadrant for play.
If you find you have some with feeler gauges check and see if you can slide them one at a time under the shaft/quadrant to measure the amount of movement, if you can get a haynes manual for Mk2 injection Granada that should have the tolerances listed in that.
It wont show up in your smoke test as allows air in only under a vacuum when the engine is running (you would have to pressurize the smoke side to force it out to see it) and only lets air in on the engine side of the butterfly, you will now if you have that problem as you will never get the mixture right, similar to if the plenum chamber gasket had failed.
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Sept 10, 2019 14:22:27 GMT
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Yes but you need to disconnect the cable then check for any play by gently rocking and lifting the shaft/quadrant for play. If you find you have some with feeler gauges check and see if you can slide them one at a time under the shaft/quadrant to measure the amount of movement, if you can get a haynes manual for Mk2 injection Granada that should have the tolerances listed in that. It wont show up in your smoke test as allows air in only under a vacuum when the engine is running (you would have to pressurize the smoke side to force it out to see it) and only lets air in on the engine side of the butterfly, you will now if you have that problem as you will never get the mixture right, similar to if the plenum chamber gasket had failed. wouldn't this have more effect at low rpm / light loads though? It seems to me that something is restricting the fuel delivery at higher loads. |
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ton246
Part of things
Posts: 132
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Sept 10, 2019 15:59:07 GMT
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A mate of mine in the distant past had one of these bought cheap as a professional boxer chap had put it sideways and parked a lamp post in the passenger seat - Through door, windscreen, chassis outrigger,and a lump of the floor - With all the glassfibre work, welding and the paint etc. that he did to rebuild the car the thing I remember most clearly from that car was the all black wiring! Been very close recently on two occasions to buying a 350i and I will be dropping by to see progress being a fan of the plastic fantastic. Yep , I had a mate that had a 3000M back in the early 90's and the wiring on that was all black with cable marker ferrules at each connection. It was an interesting car to restore ....... Very off topic, but is that a e23 7 series in your avatar, little feat ? |
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Current Cars
2005 Jaguar S type R 4.2 V8
Mk1 Transit Campervan
Previous cars
1984 BMW e28 525e
2011 Audi A4 Avant S-line Black Edition
1997 Jeep Cherokee xj off roader
1986 BMW e28 520i
1992 RRC 3.9l V8
1996 Subaru Sti
2001 Saab Aero (HOT) cabrio
2008 Audi S3
2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee LTD
1989 Volvo 740 GL Estate
2001 Subaru legacy 2.5 GX Lux Estate
2002 Citroen Saxo 1.1 desire
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Kelvinators TVR Tasminpeteh1969
@peteh1969
Club Retro Rides Member 107
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Sept 10, 2019 22:46:01 GMT
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The vacuum leak would affect through the whole rev range as it would constantly more so at lower revs as the atmospheric pressure difference is greater but it would still be there never the less.
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I've been suffering from serious lack of motivation recently, so progress has been slow. I have been plugging away at it when I can though, and had a big breakthrough last night. Expect a big update soon. |
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ToolsnTrack
Posted a lot
Homebrew Raconteur
Posts: 4,128
Club RR Member Number: 134
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Kelvinators TVR TasminToolsnTrack
@overdrive
Club Retro Rides Member 134
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Yea, i know the feeling, especially as these TVR's give no quarter when it comes to preventative maintenance.
Plus, you guys will be coming into summer soon surely, that must be a motivator?
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just in case , have you checked max fuel flow from the pump into a bucket ? maybe the tanks goojed up with stuff blocking the pickup ?
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Oct 10, 2019 10:32:27 GMT
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just in case , have you checked max fuel flow from the pump into a bucket ? maybe the tanks goojed up with stuff blocking the pickup ? Tanks were empty and the fuel coming from them appears clean, but you're on the money for what my next test is. I'm losing system pressure now, so suspecting fuel pump is failing. |
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Oct 10, 2019 15:12:41 GMT
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yup i think they run a fair bit higher pressure than electronic ,75 psi is it ?
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Oct 10, 2019 17:45:22 GMT
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yup i think they run a fair bit higher pressure than electronic ,75 psi is it ? Should be 5-5.5bar, so yeah, about 75psi. Currently maxing out at about 4.5bar, even with a thick shim added to the main regulator. Cold control pressure is also very slow to build when testing, taking 30 seconds to a minute or so to reach the required 0.5bar |
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Oct 10, 2019 17:58:27 GMT
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I had a really frustrating running issue with my K jet equipped Rocco and eventually found that the lines to the injectors had become blocked by deposits (brown coloured shyte) from old fuel that had gone off and left a lacquer deposit. Quick removal and a good run through with welding wire and they all cleaned out then she ran like new(ish).
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Needs a bigger hammer mate.......
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