AB car pix
Posted a lot
Car mag' snapper
Posts: 1,337
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Jul 26, 2018 10:49:57 GMT
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With Glasgow in 2022 planning to introduce a ban on the vast majority of diesels and all pre 2005 petrols, I'm hoping there is a way to get around this somehow... My main issue with this is that 17 year old cars (especially in PCP, lease and finance obsessed Scotland) are a tiny minority on the road, especially in city centres, so the main thing that's happening is penalising a small number of old car drivers. Personally I'm really not into 21st century cars, and resent having to change to modern car. So I'm wondering, would it be possible to convert an older car to the required Euro 4 standard (petrol) or Euro 6 (diesel). MOT emissions are already classed on tbe age of an engine, so could it be along the lines of that coupled with some DVLA paperwork? www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-44481390
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1979 Chrysler Horizon 1.3 GL 1980 Ford Granada 2.8 Ghia 1985 Ford Sierra 3dr 1985 Ford Escort Mk3 1988 Ford Sierra Sapphire Cosworth 1989 Ford Escort 1.3 Popular 1995 Volvo 960 1996 BMW 525i 1998 BMW 323i 1999 BMW 530d 2003 BMW 530i . www.facebook.com/ABCARPIX
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Jul 26, 2018 10:57:12 GMT
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the main issue i would see is that the governing body (i don't know who that is sorry, but for us its transport for london) get the identity of the vehicle, its tax class and CO2 emmisions from department for transport, based purely on reg number.
i think the physical engine swap would be the easy part.
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mylittletony
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,350
Club RR Member Number: 84
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Jul 26, 2018 12:46:19 GMT
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I recently had to argue with TFL to get the wife's Euro4 diesel compliant Volvo V50 on the "no charge" list for the T-charge.
I was originally asked to provide a letter from the Volvo homologation department proving the car complied. However, the various references to "e4" in the VIN, V5c and emissions levels cited on the V5c proved sufficient. Only until next April when London goes to e4 petrol/e6 diesel as well though...
My point is that you can in theory get the status related to the reg changed, but you will have to give a lot of proof.
There's a lot of technology implemented on petrol/diesel to meet these tight levels, so you've no chance of making an old engine meet them.
Since the emissions are a function of engine AND vehicle (weight, aerodynamics, transmission etc etc) I would expect any transplant to be followed by some sort of verification at great expense.
I imagine an electric conversion would end up being the easiest as it's zero emission and easiest to prove.
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Jul 26, 2018 12:52:03 GMT
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Easiest way to 'convert' it would be to stick a numberplate from something more 'environmentally friendly' on it*. No doubt it will be monitored by ANPR camera's..
*I am not endorsing this
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AB car pix
Posted a lot
Car mag' snapper
Posts: 1,337
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Jul 26, 2018 13:03:36 GMT
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Easiest way to 'convert' it would be to stick a numberplate from something more 'environmentally friendly' on it*. No doubt it will be monitored by ANPR camera's.. *I am not endorsing this Not exacty a subtle work-around when it results in you having the only old car in the area, not to mention the clearly wrong age on its plate!
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1979 Chrysler Horizon 1.3 GL 1980 Ford Granada 2.8 Ghia 1985 Ford Sierra 3dr 1985 Ford Escort Mk3 1988 Ford Sierra Sapphire Cosworth 1989 Ford Escort 1.3 Popular 1995 Volvo 960 1996 BMW 525i 1998 BMW 323i 1999 BMW 530d 2003 BMW 530i . www.facebook.com/ABCARPIX
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AB car pix
Posted a lot
Car mag' snapper
Posts: 1,337
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Jul 26, 2018 13:05:43 GMT
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I recently had to argue with TFL to get the wife's Euro4 diesel compliant Volvo V50 on the "no charge" list for the T-charge. I was originally asked to provide a letter from the Volvo homologation department proving the car complied. However, the various references to "e4" in the VIN, V5c and emissions levels cited on the V5c proved sufficient. Only until next April when London goes to e4 petrol/e6 diesel as well though... My point is that you can in theory get the status related to the reg changed, but you will have to give a lot of proof. There's a lot of technology implemented on petrol/diesel to meet these tight levels, so you've no chance of making an old engine meet them. Since the emissions are a function of engine AND vehicle (weight, aerodynamics, transmission etc etc) I would expect any transplant to be followed by some sort of verification at great expense. I imagine an electric conversion would end up being the easiest as it's zero emission and easiest to prove. I can't imagine a 2005 Euro 4 petrol car being of a hideously complicated standard to achieve. Engine swap along with the cat surely would be enough?
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Last Edit: Jul 26, 2018 13:06:07 GMT by AB car pix
1979 Chrysler Horizon 1.3 GL 1980 Ford Granada 2.8 Ghia 1985 Ford Sierra 3dr 1985 Ford Escort Mk3 1988 Ford Sierra Sapphire Cosworth 1989 Ford Escort 1.3 Popular 1995 Volvo 960 1996 BMW 525i 1998 BMW 323i 1999 BMW 530d 2003 BMW 530i . www.facebook.com/ABCARPIX
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mylittletony
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,350
Club RR Member Number: 84
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Jul 26, 2018 13:26:11 GMT
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I can't imagine a 2005 Euro 4 petrol car being of a hideously complicated standard to achieve. Engine swap along with the cat surely would be enough? Engine from a what into a what though? A 1.0l ecoboost engine in a fiesta gets better figures than when it's lugging a mondeo around. So you'd have to prove that the new combination meets the right levels. Only one way of doing that - testing...
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AB car pix
Posted a lot
Car mag' snapper
Posts: 1,337
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Jul 26, 2018 14:33:33 GMT
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I can't imagine a 2005 Euro 4 petrol car being of a hideously complicated standard to achieve. Engine swap along with the cat surely would be enough? Engine from a what into a what though? A 1.0l ecoboost engine in a fiesta gets better figures than when it's lugging a mondeo around. So you'd have to prove that the new combination meets the right levels. Only one way of doing that - testing... I'd like to find out the process and what's possible when it comes to reclassification. Quite possibly the most important issue relating to old cars in the very near future is their legality of use after all.
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1979 Chrysler Horizon 1.3 GL 1980 Ford Granada 2.8 Ghia 1985 Ford Sierra 3dr 1985 Ford Escort Mk3 1988 Ford Sierra Sapphire Cosworth 1989 Ford Escort 1.3 Popular 1995 Volvo 960 1996 BMW 525i 1998 BMW 323i 1999 BMW 530d 2003 BMW 530i . www.facebook.com/ABCARPIX
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Jul 26, 2018 20:41:44 GMT
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I always entertained the idea of getting a compliant lorry, but hitch it up with a trailer loaded full with non compliant emission cars and then start driving through town with the loaded cars idling happy away.
Nothing illegal about that?
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Click picture for more
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Jul 26, 2018 21:42:04 GMT
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With Glasgow in 2022 planning to introduce a ban on the vast majority of diesels and all pre 2005 petrols, I'm hoping there is a way to get around this somehow... Simple answer, MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!!
London seems to be going to give historic cars an exemption, I imagine Glasgow will do the same! So you could get an OLDER car and run that instead!
Steve
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I always entertained the idea of getting a compliant lorry, but hitch it up with a trailer loaded full with non compliant emission cars and then start driving through town with the loaded cars idling happy away. Nothing illegal about that? This forum really needs an uproarious laughter button as well as the like button. May as well add a couple of poorly maintained 50's diesel tractors to your transporter load for bonus black smoke.
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I always entertained the idea of getting a compliant lorry, but hitch it up with a trailer loaded full with non compliant emission cars and then start driving through town with the loaded cars idling happy away. Nothing illegal about that? don't be to sure about that. In London a " subject to certain restrictions, any driver of a motor vehicle parked on the highway who refuses to switch off their engine if asked by an authorised officer can be issued with a Fixed Penalty Notice" with a fine of £20 Yes your plan is the cars are on a moving truck bed but they are staionary on the truck bed. Possibly a grey area. www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/business/environmental-health/environmental-protection/air-quality/Pages/idling-vehicle-engines.aspxAdrian
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Vitesse 6 Saloon Vitesse Mk2 Convertible BMW R1150GS VW Amarok
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paul99
Part of things
Posts: 410
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Could register as an ambulance in London at one point, but it looks like they've tightened up that rule Are there going to be exempt classes up there?
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braaap
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,603
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Easiest way to 'convert' it would be to stick a numberplate from something more 'environmentally friendly' on it*. No doubt it will be monitored by ANPR camera's.. *I am not endorsing this Not exacty a subtle work-around when it results in you having the only old car in the area, not to mention the clearly wrong age on its plate! Yes, but Volkswagen (and others surely, too) DID lie with their emissions. So why don´t you? The only thing you must not do - is being caught!
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Jul 27, 2018 15:40:24 GMT
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I will never believe it is about emissions with councils, it’s just a very easy way to make money, to have an older car exempt it has to be I think 40+ so anything decent and reliable will be expensive to buy. It does not yet seem viable/possible to get older diesels to run with adblu. There are 36,000,000 motorists in Britain, if they banded together they could stop any council fleecing them. I’m pretty sure Birmingham will be next with ulez and I would then expect manchand Liverpool to follow. They are all quick to bring these schemes in but never provide an alternate that is cheap, reliable, able to take capacity and efficient
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Bicycle x1 Alfa Giulietta (now wife's) Alfa 156 BMW 630i Honda rc36
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Jul 27, 2018 20:31:08 GMT
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I could be wrong but I wouldn't have thought that this was possible.
Crazy as it might sound, I wouldn't be surprised to find that meeting the relevant emission levels at an MoT test is not enough to make your car compliant with the appropriate Euro standard; I imagine it would need proper type approval papers from the manufacturer for the vehicle/engine combination.
I doubt that the city council would enter into any sort of discussion about it either. It'll be "your year, make and model of vehicle did not leave the factory Euro X compliant and is therefore banned" I bet.
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Jul 27, 2018 21:35:33 GMT
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A mate lives within the London LEZ (not the ULEZ) and drives a Diesel VW van for his work as a mobile mechanic, an 02 model IIRC. He was given a choice, buy a newer van that DID meet the requirements, update his existing vehicle with a DPF etc.... or pay £50 A DAY, just to keep it at his house! Since they apparently keep moving the goalposts, he was reluctant to buy a newer vehicle since that might quickly be outdated, a NEW vehicle is too expensive and anyway, he retires in another couple of years, paying up is obviously a no-no, so he elected to modify. It cost him a couple of grand, but is now up to 2016 manufacturer spec on emissions and this should see him out. So it IS do-able, though I didn't get all the details on just how many different beurocratic hoops he had to jump through to get the modified vehicle approved!
Steve
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Jul 27, 2018 21:50:52 GMT
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A mate lives within the London LEZ (not the ULEZ) and drives a Diesel VW van for his work as a mobile mechanic, an 02 model IIRC. He was given a choice, buy a newer van that DID meet the requirements, update his existing vehicle with a DPF etc.... or pay £50 A DAY, just to keep it at his house! Since they apparently keep moving the goalposts, he was reluctant to buy a newer vehicle since that might quickly be outdated, a NEW vehicle is too expensive and anyway, he retires in another couple of years, paying up is obviously a no-no, so he elected to modify. It cost him a couple of grand, but is now up to 2016 manufacturer spec on emissions and this should see him out. So it IS do-able, though I didn't get all the details on just how many different beurocratic hoops he had to jump through to get the modified vehicle approved! Steve DPF and SCR retrofitting is big in the HGV business, many older vehicles can be retrofitted for much less than the cost of a newer vehicle. In Germany if all the relavent emissions controls equipment (EGR, DPF/SCR) are retrofitted it means you can enter a clean city zone (green sticker), and you pay much lower road tax. Hence there is a burgeoning market for aftermarket DPFs with full closed-loop control for older vehicles.
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,195
Club RR Member Number: 170
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As said you can retrofit DPFs. This will give you a Reduced Pollution Certificate, aka an RPC. This was the case for trucks too.
Note the word was. I know when I was involved in transport, VOSA stopped giving out RPCs for lorries, probably due to the ever moving goalposts.
A shame it has gone that way. Small wonder as to why new car prices are so expensive.
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skinnylew
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 5,546
Club RR Member Number: 11
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With Glasgow in 2022 planning to introduce a ban on the vast majority of diesels and all pre 2005 petrols, I'm hoping there is a way to get around this somehow... Simple answer, MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!! London seems to be going to give historic cars an exemption, I imagine Glasgow will do the same! So you could get an OLDER car and run that instead! Steve
There's always one Unfortunately this of us who built a life in the suburbs, work in the suburbs and generally have spent our whole life existing in the suburbs, just move is not a really feasible suggestion and why should we, the goal posts moved not us! Sure if I sold my modest terrace house in greater London I could buy a village somewhere (other than the south of England) but the commute would be a really curse word
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