Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,784
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Sept 18, 2017 9:26:40 GMT
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I'm a bit confused as getting no straight answer on various forums/discussions. My car is a 1958 Ford Prefect 100e so is mot and tax exempt. It's got a full chassis, 5 litre v8, 9" axle etc so it's radically modified. All the modifications were done before 1988. So where do I stand with it? Does anything change, will it need to be mot'd now, will it need BIVA, will it get a Q plate??? You need to be able to prove it was built pre 88. If you can't then it's IVA. As long as you can prove to them it was built (and the documents updated accordingly) before SVA/IVA existed, then you car classes as a VHI and is tax and MOT exempt. If the documents were never updated at the time it's always been illegally registered and still is now.
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Sept 18, 2017 9:39:58 GMT
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Hi All,
Loads of good stuff on here, thanks, but Dr Stupid here still cant work it out.
I have a 1976 Mini Clubman Estate that has been sorned for 10 subject to a slow restoration/rebuild. It was originally a 998 auto, but now is a 1293 manual. I guess that I've passed the 15% power increase....not worried too much about that as that's what I was hoping for. However, everything underneath is new, subframes, rack, suspension, brakes etc, but upgraded from the original specs of the vehicle to Hi-Lo's, spax etc. (Rack is the same spec, subframes are unmodified). As I have changed the engine and all these bits, what are the chances of a Q plate being required under the new rules. I'm quite happy to have annual MOT's etc and pay my VED, just don't want the 'stigma' of a Q.....
Apologies to all with functioning brains.
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1982 Granada 2.8 Ghia X - SOLD ☹️ 1976 Mini Clubman Estate - Getting there slowly.
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Sept 18, 2017 10:16:35 GMT
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Hi All, Loads of good stuff on here, thanks, but Dr Stupid here still cant work it out. I have a 1976 Mini Clubman Estate that has been sorned for 10 subject to a slow restoration/rebuild. It was originally a 998 auto, but now is a 1293 manual. I guess that I've passed the 15% power increase....not worried too much about that as that's what I was hoping for. However, everything underneath is new, subframes, rack, suspension, brakes etc, but upgraded from the original specs of the vehicle to Hi-Lo's, spax etc. (Rack is the same spec, subframes are unmodified). As I have changed the engine and all these bits, what are the chances of a Q plate being required under the new rules. I'm quite happy to have annual MOT's etc and pay my VED, just don't want the 'stigma' of a Q..... Apologies to all with functioning brains. You should be fine, the shell will in your case, based on the info above, still be of original design, the axles are the same and the steering is the same so you would have 9 points and retain reg (maybe more points if the brakes are still the original spec just replaced). It's ok to have replaced parts with replacement parts of the same design to restore worn out parts, rusty panels.
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Last Edit: Sept 18, 2017 10:22:06 GMT by miker33
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hotrat
Part of things
Posts: 14
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Sept 18, 2017 10:44:41 GMT
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Hi All, Loads of good stuff on here, thanks, but Dr Stupid here still cant work it out. I have a 1976 Mini Clubman Estate that has been sorned for 10 subject to a slow restoration/rebuild. It was originally a 998 auto, but now is a 1293 manual. I guess that I've passed the 15% power increase....not worried too much about that as that's what I was hoping for. However, everything underneath is new, subframes, rack, suspension, brakes etc, but upgraded from the original specs of the vehicle to Hi-Lo's, spax etc. (Rack is the same spec, subframes are unmodified). As I have changed the engine and all these bits, what are the chances of a Q plate being required under the new rules. I'm quite happy to have annual MOT's etc and pay my VED, just don't want the 'stigma' of a Q..... Apologies to all with functioning brains. Nothing wrong with a Q, Q means it is built right. Q stands for Quality.
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Sept 18, 2017 22:16:58 GMT
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If the IVA was more sensible then that would be great and it would be fine on all key items but it focuses on items that are original by design which won't pass, just because it's not a rod then obviously the 1000's hrs work which I have put into the car is irrelevant. Maybe if they applied some decent fair regs then people wouldn't try to be in grey areas all the time. All the engine changes etc were registered legally at the time the build was started, maybe I was naive at the time not so aware of the points system on a modified car having assumed the SVA at the time not IVA applied to only kit cars. It's not that it's not a Rod, it's when it was built! A good mate of mine has a classic Pop Rod, tube chassis, blown V8 Grp body etc, all built in the late 70s and preserved as originally built give or take some paint! Just recently he has had his V5 revoked as his car has come to the attention of DVLA as being "radically modified" and will need to pass a BIVA and be Q plated to make legal again. When it was BUILT, it WAS LEGAL!!!!! Ask "Blackpopracing" how difficult and expensive it is to get such a car through a BIVA test. Your car was NOT legal when built, whether through ignorance of the rules, or by design is not important! I agree that a more sensible approach by BIVA would be eminently desireable, the rules are mainly designed for kit cars and very low volume manufacturers and pay little attention to "our" sort of modifieds that have got lumped into the same category by default. But the rules are the rules, I doubt very much that they will ever get changed to suit us better so we just have to work with what we have, at least we have more freedom than many of our european counterparts! I feel for you a bit, I wouldn't want thousands of pounds and thousands of hours work you have put in to go to waste, never mind the loss of a unique and interesting car. But at least you got to enjoy the fruits of your labours for a while! Steve
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fogey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,613
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Sept 18, 2017 22:28:16 GMT
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'Q' plate a stigma? Not any more - legally registered cars on 'Q' plates will now increase in value. . . . . . Quote from above: ' Time to sell up I think as the whole point was to have the car usable on the road not just at the track ' Buyers need to be very careful of what apparent 'bargains' come on the market in coming months . . . . .
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Last Edit: Sept 18, 2017 22:30:46 GMT by fogey
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Sept 19, 2017 0:26:40 GMT
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'Q' plate a stigma? Not any more - legally registered cars on 'Q' plates will now increase in value. . . . . . Quote from above: ' Time to sell up I think as the whole point was to have the car usable on the road not just at the track ' Buyers need to be very careful of what apparent 'bargains' come on the market in coming months . . . . . I would never try to sell the mini to an unsuspecting uk buyer under false pretences of the cars legal status. In my case it will be to an overseas buyer who can decide on quality of the build and legality of there own country or in the UK likely broken for parts. I do agree however that not everyone may be so open about the legal state of their sale.
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artstu
Part of things
Posts: 48
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Sept 19, 2017 11:56:57 GMT
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'Q' plate a stigma? Not any more - legally registered cars on 'Q' plates will now increase in value. . . . . . Then there are the cars with age related plates that have special notes on the V5C of
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glenanderson
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,258
Club RR Member Number: 64
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Sept 19, 2017 16:22:53 GMT
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'Q' plate a stigma? Not any more - legally registered cars on 'Q' plates will now increase in value. . . . . . Then there are the cars with age related plates that have special notes on the V5C of I've owned a couple of bikes and a Land-Rover with the rider "Assembled from parts, some or all of which were not new". I suspect there are quite a few floating about.
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My worst worry about dying is my wife selling my stuff for what I told her it cost...
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froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
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Sept 19, 2017 17:11:41 GMT
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So if you carry on paying road tax it's just business as usual then ?
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Sept 19, 2017 19:49:53 GMT
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This will most likely end the Mini, if they send it for an IVA it will not pass on stupid things like the original door handles, angles on the wings, roof gutter, seams etc which are all by design. The fact that the suspension is better than original, brakes far superior to original, emissions lower than original, structure stronger than original is irrelevant to these muppets. Ok, lets get some things straight. Door handles - should pass, may need minor mods to do so. Angles on wings? what are you on about?? Roof gutter = pass Seams = pass lower emissions = pass better brakes = pass So where do you see your car not passing?
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Sept 19, 2017 19:53:25 GMT
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I've got 9 kits, some on age related plates, some on Q plates, but all registered before 1990. Only one of those is classed as historic and that was built in about 83/84 on a 1972 donor retaining all the working mechanicals from the donor, it also retained the registration mark. It hasn't altered since 1984 apart an increase in engine capacity. If the only change is that I pay the VED then that will be what happens. From what has been happening over the past few years it would appear the DVLA are chasing the vehicles they consider to be 'lost revenue' as declared historic even though highly modified. I think enforcing a retrospective IVA on all radically altered or kit built vehicles would require much more manpower than the DVSA can currently muster. The police are short staffed and do actually have more important things to do with their time so who is going to enforce and carry out the actual checks required to pronounce a verdict on so many modified cars? Currently VIC's are carried out by Capita as far as I know, probably at a far higher cost that the LVLO's they closed We are the last country in Europe with a kit car industry, one of very few who allow cars to be modified at all. So all this is going to change because some knob in Brussels can't abide individuality? We as a nation have been bent over the 'european barrel' on so many things. WHY, if we are leaving Europe, are we still taking this up the A***. The cost involved is going to be way more than the gain in VED will ever give them back. Its a waste of taxpayers money. Apologies for the rant, i'll get my coat. I'm off to the garage to do something constructive.
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1988 DUTTON LEGERRA MK1 - SPARES DONOR 1989 DUTTON LEGERRA MK2 - CURRENT PROJECT 1990 DUTTON LEGERRA ZS MK2 1990 DUTTON LEGERRA ZS MK2 DUTTON PHAETON S2 - Resting DUTTON PHAETON S4 - Resting DUTTON PHAETON S4 - PROJECT X DUTTON SIERRA S2 - Resting
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scimjim
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,503
Club RR Member Number: 8
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Sept 19, 2017 20:40:56 GMT
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This will most likely end the Mini, if they send it for an IVA it will not pass on stupid things like the original door handles, angles on the wings, roof gutter, seams etc which are all by design. The fact that the suspension is better than original, brakes far superior to original, emissions lower than original, structure stronger than original is irrelevant to these muppets. Ok, lets get some things straight. Door handles - should pass, may need minor mods to do so. Angles on wings? what are you on about?? Roof gutter = pass Seams = pass lower emissions = pass better brakes = pass So where do you see your car not passing? I would imagine some of those special mirrors (the ones that fall off on the way out of the door) and some work in the cabin (switchgear and edge radii, maybe seat belt mounts?) would be the main areas. 2 months reading the manual, a few weeks planning and a few days work if it's already on the road
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Sept 19, 2017 22:27:19 GMT
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Ok, lets get some things straight. Door handles - should pass, may need minor mods to do so. Angles on wings? what are you on about?? Roof gutter = pass Seams = pass lower emissions = pass better brakes = pass So where do you see your car not passing? I would imagine some of those special mirrors (the ones that fall off on the way out of the door) and some work in the cabin (switchgear and edge radii, maybe seat belt mounts?) would be the main areas. 2 months reading the manual, a few weeks planning and a few days work if it's already on the road I suspect that the fact that it has 2 engines may be a bit of a stumbling block! Or have I misunderstood something?
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Sept 19, 2017 22:39:53 GMT
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Way back in the lawless 70s I built a twin engined Mini Van, unlike our friend the engines were not supposed to be used together, the front one was the original 850cc 4 banger (mainly for ballast)and in the back lurked an Olds Toronado V8 Even so, I had several boring conversations with the local constabulary about the legality of using both at once! Unfortunately for me the car had a rather a short life as it caught fire in the garage less than a year after completion during some ill judged experiments with nitromethane.
Steve
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Sept 20, 2017 5:54:25 GMT
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I would imagine some of those special mirrors (the ones that fall off on the way out of the door) and some work in the cabin (switchgear and edge radii, maybe seat belt mounts?) would be the main areas. 2 months reading the manual, a few weeks planning and a few days work if it's already on the road I suspect that the fact that it has 2 engines may be a bit of a stumbling block! Or have I misunderstood something? Two engines is not a reason to pass IVA as far as i can see. However, it does mean that IVA is needed. It's not a standard VHI (40+, no mot or tax needed from next May). It's not a modified VHI (new class under discussion, for cars with more than a 15% increase in power to weight ratio, still need MOT, tax situation under discussion) Its a Radically Altered vehicle as the monocoque has been modified and therefore should have already been through IVA. The only hope is that it was modified before 1988 and can be proven, in which case grandfather rights should see it into the VHI class.
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1968 Cal Look Beetle - 2007cc motor - 14.45@93mph in full street trim 1970-ish Karmann Beetle cabriolet - project soon to be re-started. 1986 Scirocco - big plans, one day!
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Sept 20, 2017 6:31:08 GMT
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This will most likely end the Mini, if they send it for an IVA it will not pass on stupid things like the original door handles, angles on the wings, roof gutter, seams etc which are all by design. The fact that the suspension is better than original, brakes far superior to original, emissions lower than original, structure stronger than original is irrelevant to these muppets. Ok, lets get some things straight. Door handles - should pass, may need minor mods to do so. Angles on wings? what are you on about?? Roof gutter = pass Seams = pass lower emissions = pass better brakes = pass So where do you see your car not passing? Hi, Thanks for the feedback. I had been informed through other areas many years ago that the radius of the front wings would be an issue on the IVA and also the gutter, side seams (pretty much every sharpish angle on the car). If this is not the case then maybe worth a go, was thinking of throwing it in for a test anyway next year to just find out what has issues and see if I could resolve them without trashing it or throwing stupid amounts of money at it. Have heard that harnesses could be a problem and the original belt mount points just aren't accessible anymore so can't refit old style belts. In general though couldn't care less if it had a 'Q' reg it's never been about getting historic status it was about being used for racing\shows and to\from events, and would still be having an MOT even it it wasn't required for my own extra piece of mind. Cheap road tax would have been nice for the very low miles it does each year but that's about it. The engine number\capacity, number of seats was changed on the V5 already ages ago. Usually only run on front engine most of the time on the road although there's nothing in any rulebook to stop 2 power sources driving different axles, a large portion of hybrids already do this. The dashboard display, switches etc were already SVA complaint but may be an issue with sharp edges inside on rolllcage bolts and under dash areas. Haven't got a rear fog currently but there is already wiring\switch in place to pop a light on the back. Cheers, Mike
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Last Edit: Sept 20, 2017 6:39:55 GMT by miker33
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Sept 20, 2017 6:40:22 GMT
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Download the manual and have a read. Edging trim will fix most sharp edges and harnesses are allowed as long as mounting point location is correct.
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Sept 20, 2017 7:33:37 GMT
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Miker33, have a good look at what Mark (blackpopracing) has done for his Pop in his thread either here or on Rods n Sods. Any problem that he has come across (and there have been many!) have been worked out elegantly without compromising the quality of the build.
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1968 Cal Look Beetle - 2007cc motor - 14.45@93mph in full street trim 1970-ish Karmann Beetle cabriolet - project soon to be re-started. 1986 Scirocco - big plans, one day!
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Sept 20, 2017 9:21:21 GMT
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To be honest every vehicle should have an mot no matter the age always baffled me why they bought this law in. I already own a pre 1960 mot exempt car on the road. I check it over more often than my mot vehicles but always nice to have some other eyes look over a car to see if you have missed something. I built it well within the 8 point system i made a point of doing this, but i changed the engine mainly due to not being able to get an original one. No problems as its only 1 point in the current rule system and ive done it in a way without cutting or altering the car. Ive gone petrol to diesel old plodder of a diesel lump. So will have to work out the increase in power if any. I am fine with motting the car but i would be really be annoyed if i lost my tax free as i only use it now and again its not my every day car. I can see this all getting to complicated and most people who already got cars that are not within the rules wont care, when all they got to do is tick a box to say there car is not modified and they don't have to mot it. Theres lots of cars out there with changed ID,S lots got done for the pre 1972 tax exemption, I can see people looking for for pre 1988 modified ID,s now.
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