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May 21, 2017 22:28:53 GMT
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Thanks Chris, You never stop learning & being open minded is always a good thing, everybody has their own twist on things, to get the job done, but the fundamentals are always the best starting points, get them wrong & the job goes south very quickly. Back in the old days, etch primer was king for aluminium, but having tried Epoxy on my AM, I can see the advantages, I'm still a solvent guy, haven't tried waterbased basecoats yet as I've seen them peel off! My paint process btw is, 120g d/a sand bare metal, Epoxy primer applied with a foam roller,no waste, then filler work/blocking, seal filler with Epoxy again, then 2k high build primer to level everything out from 180g-320g, followed by 2 coats of 2k solid colour gloss coat as an undercoat to check reflections & fill any scratches to 800g w&d, as any metallic/pearl basecoat will show scratches left in the prep, then b/c & lacquer to finish. All my prep work is hand blocked, I never use a machine. Finally wet flat lacquer 800-2000, then use 3" polishing heads to finish, this is my method at the moment, if I pick up a new tip, then I'll try it. I know the above method is probably not commercially viable, but I have no time pressures or profit to consider, so I imagine it's a very different issue for you running a business. Martin - You are not far off from a process point of view - the Jupiter that I have on the current thread will be going into paint in a couple of weeks so you will see my favoured process on a stage by stage basis - but basically I correct & fill from bare metal (top quality fillers that are designed for bare metal application) all hand blocked back to correct profiles - sprayed with a high build 2k polyester spraying filler - initially machine sanded with P320 then hand blocked / hand finished - epoxy / 2k primer over the blocked polyester applied as a wet on wet system - wet sanded by hand - P600 initially and finished with p800 prior to basecoat & lacquer - I use a slow hardener in the lacquer - then hand flat back with p2000 wet with soap - 3M do a fantastic 3 stage polishing range which I will explain on the Jupiter thread - I utilise a 6" polishing head at a low speed and get flawless results Water based is not something that I would normally favour using on restoration work at all - it's ok for minor repairs / new panels on moderns etc but is not durable enough for my liking.
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May 21, 2017 22:35:59 GMT
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Only two pages in and already i've learned so much! Just wondering now how i am going to get the Hammerite off my suspension components, and what should i coat them with instead? Would powder coating them be best? Powder coating is a good route however POR & Bilthamber both do an excellent epoxy paint that would be suitable, POR has a better colour range where has the Bilthamber product is in black only - there are other products in the market a good quality single pack air drying enamel will do the job providing it is applied over a good quality primer which has been prepped correctly.
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May 21, 2017 23:05:51 GMT
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No! Powder coating is terrible for underbody parts.one chip and the water creeps under the coating until it peels off in big sheets with very rusty parts underneath.
You could get parts cad plated or just brush on epoxy primer and paint with 2 pack, also brushed as suspension parts are not normally show finish (unless they are mine anyway, lol)
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So Paint contaminates - you have gone to all the trouble of welding / sanding & prepping your bodywork and at the final hurdle the paint stage it all goes wrong - silicone contamination can ruin a paint job and leave you completely disheartened after putting in so much work - quite often known in the trade has 'Fish Eye' silicone contamination can be caused by all wide range of products & circumstances - so what does it look like and what effect does it have It could be just a few or it could be hundreds has seen above (looks like a hammerite type finish) which I have simulated on the underside of a bonnet - if it's just a few on a isolated panel and they are small you might stand a chance with a little more paint over them and flatting back & polishing once the paint has cured - however they are normally plentiful when it happens. Caused simply by applying paint over the top of a silicone effected area - silcones can be found in vast majority of products that you will have in your garage / workshop and on your car. Has the saying prevention is better than the cure so good housekeeping is essential - you need to remain diligent throughout the paint process - don't expect to have a pile of oily mechanical parts in the corner of the workshop and think that you will be ok by throwing a blanket over the top of them - waxing down one side the vehicle when you are going to be painting the other side in two days time is not going to help either. So before you even put the car in the workshop to commence a paint project remove all waxes, silicone sprays, cleaners, oils, greases, oily rags, contaminated cloths etc. If you are sharing a workshop and someone at the other end of the shop is waxing a car or spraying silicone polishes all over it a few hours before you start painting then you are going to be beset with problems. Degrease the panels that you are going to paint before you start work on them - polymer paint sealants have now been market for over 20 years and removing them along with any paint wax etc can only aid you to a stress free paint job - use a solvent panel wipe / degreaser - it's cheap & easy to use - make sure that the cloths that you use are lint free - specialist paint / solvent wipes are available from your local automotive paint factor - cloths impregnated with solvent wipe are also available but I find them an expensive commodity. Once you have undertaken your prep work and you are ready for applying the primer a quick wipe down with the panel wipe will ensure the panel is free of any silicone contamination - do this just before applying the paint - your hands / skin carry natural oils so take care not to touch the panel with your bare hands - better still wear disposable gloves. Once you have flatted your primer and you are ready for spraying the topcoat undertake the same process again with the panel wipe - it evaporates very quickly so again panel wipe just before you apply the paint. If once you start to paint you notice a few silicone spots / fish eyes appearing - there is a cheap cost effective product in the market that can help you out so when you collect your paint from the automotive paint factors / suppliers ask for a bottle of fish eye eliminator / anti silicone additive (there are several brands) You can add this to your paint mix and it should reduce / eliminate the problem - so here is the same under bonnet panel with another two coats of primer with the additive mixed into the paint If you have a rash of silicones / fish eyes all over your wet paint - stop painting don't waste your paint trying to cover it - let it dry - flat it back and start again - continue to paint it and you are just making more work for yourself - by all means post up any questions that you may have. I shall shortly be painting the Jupiter that I have a thread running on and will be covering other paint contaminates but just need to gather the images first - it's far easier for me to explain with a few images than what it is just posting a load of blurb for you to read whilst you attempt to image in your head what I am talking about.
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Last Edit: May 22, 2017 8:11:42 GMT by Deleted
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Good thread. I'm soon to get my 911 Tub back ready for paint. I'm trying to replicate many of the factory imperfections so figured why should I pay several thousand for a paint shop to do a dodgy job.
My Plan is to do all the underside and internals then hand it over to someone to do prep and 2k topcoat on the outer panels, If I can borrow an air fed mask I might do all the door shuts and under the bonnet/engine lid etc so the final paint can be with panels on like it was in the factory.
I'll be doing the following unless anyone has any advise -
Lechler Epoxy all over - applied with Devilbiss FLG 5 which i've just invested in. fill any minor imperfections in floor and inner wheel arches Lechler Epoxy Seam seal - 2 pk brand undecided yet. Underseal/Schutz - floors, inner arches, Engine bay - I like the looks of UPOL Raptor It can be tinted and seems super tough. - This will be a beige/grey colour. *air fed permitting - Lay some Body colour paint in the luggage compartment, cabin. door shuts etc. Satin Black paint the Inner arches,engine, dash. Fit up panels and hand over for outer body prep and paint by a pro.
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1970 Porsche 911E 2002 Porsche Boxster S 2002 Peugeot Partner 1.9sdi
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May 22, 2017 10:16:37 GMT
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powder coating is perfectly fine as long as good surface prep is done.
Orange mountain bikes are all coated in house and you know the battering an mtb gets, sure it will chip if you smash the steel chain on the chainstay a lot, or bounce off a few rocks, but ive never seen one peel off its coating.
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May 22, 2017 12:27:37 GMT
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Thanks Chris, Water based is not something that I would normally favour using on restoration work at all - it's ok for minor repairs / new panels on moderns etc but is not durable enough for my liking. Can you please explain your reasoning behind this??? Water borne base coat is a fantastic product, as you will be aware this is top coated by 2k clear.. I own a restoration company and for the last 10 or so years we have been using water borne base, it's the best product on the market for cost over performance. To say it's not durable is incorrect. Cellulose, synthetic, acrylic etc etc are all old school material. Tom
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May 22, 2017 12:57:44 GMT
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Can you please explain your reasoning behind this??? Water borne base coat is a fantastic product, as you will be aware this is top coated by 2k clear.. I own a restoration company and for the last 10 or so years we have been using water borne base, it's the best product on the market for cost over performance. To say it's not durable is incorrect. Cellulose, synthetic, acrylic etc etc are all old school material. Tom Tom - I think paint is matter of preference and you quite rightly mention the old school material it just so happens I am a very old school kind of guy - was brought up on all the old school stuff and some of it still sticks - I simply just don't find that water based works for me and I don't find it durable enough in my book - I use it on the odd modern that passes through though the workshop but I much prefer to use a solvent basecoat with a 2k clearcoat on my restoration work - it's not that have not tried it but a matter of what works for me. I am aware of several other restoration based bodyshops that adopt the same route too - If water based works for you then that's fine but cost over performance is not always that critical in my work - I would much rather have the performance if it produces the right results for me & my clients even though that it may have cost a few hundred quid more in materials - Chris
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May 22, 2017 20:56:11 GMT
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acrylic? cellulose? urethane ? oil based ? that was my question It's none of those as I know all of the above base resins & tbh I don't exactly what its base resin Hammerite use that determines it category, as it has it's own thinner that doesn't mix with anything else, I just know as machinery paint that you can't re-coat for months afterwards, never use any Hammerite products on cars is my advice. hmm, i thinned it fine with tetrosyl "standard thinners". but again that was the "smooth" stuff, not hammered finished "hammerite" which i expect is a different beast. i get all the rage and why its got such universal terrible rep (i expect mostly because people do actually apply it direct to rust, and mud and grime and LM grease and fish guts) treating it with as much care consideration and prep as a "quality" paint, how bad can it be? genuine question, not trying to be contrary
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Jun 11, 2017 23:22:54 GMT
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Chris, can you tell me more about fade out thinners? I just damaged my car so will need to do some major blending soon. What is a good make and how do you mix and apply it?
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Jun 16, 2017 17:46:48 GMT
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I would also be interested in some more details on the specilist fillers you mention, I have only ever used the better known makes from the local motor factors.
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Chris, can you tell me more about fade out thinners? I just damaged my car so will need to do some major blending soon. What is a good make and how do you mix and apply it? PM'd
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I would also be interested in some more details on the specilist fillers you mention, I have only ever used the better known makes from the local motor factors. Fillers are very much a matter of choice and I very much stick to my tried & tested range - I will take some pics when I am in the workshop a little later today - my main ground rule is don't buy at the cheap end of the market - the effort required to produce anything like decent results with the cheap stuff far outweighs any cost savings - even some of the big name brands I won't touch due to the lack of workability in them
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Jun 18, 2017 20:49:25 GMT
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I would also be interested in some more details on the specilist fillers you mention, I have only ever used the better known makes from the local motor factors. Fillers are very much a matter of choice and I very much stick to my tried & tested range - I will take some pics when I am in the workshop a little later today - my main ground rule is don't buy at the cheap end of the market - the effort required to produce anything like decent results with the cheap stuff far outweighs any cost savings - even some of the big name brands I won't touch due to the lack of workability in them So here is my choice - there are other products out there but these work for me - nor are they the cheapest in the market but used by me for their durability , workability and most importantly quality I always aim to repair straighten up a panel / repair it to less than a 5mm tolerance of the original profile - ideally <3mm - sometimes this can not be achieved due to previous repairs / damage stretching the metal in which case the panel needs to either shrunk or taken beyond the original profile shape and then filled - In the rare case that I have to fill a deeper profile - this is what I use - Proworx Swift - it's a good quality product, mixes well and sands nicely I then use Dupont Cromax 769R - This is a very high quality fine filler, dries without leaving pinholes and is has easy to apply has margarine - sands back really nice - The best finishing filler that I have ever used - great for panel skimming I use a finishing glaze for final finishing - this is a self levelling filler which is much more viscus than your normal filler - in fact I would say that it is semi liquid - this is great for removing any minor undulation - I prefer U Pols Dolphin Glaze - you sand this back once cured just like you would normal filler - great for blending out over the top of repairs / paint edges etc Below image shows the combination of fillers used - the beige is the Dupont Cromax & the green being the Dolphin Glaze The Dupont Cromax 769R will be the hardest product to find - however all 3 products are stocked by LKQ coatings which is the automotive refinishing division of Euro Car Parts - lkqcoatings.com/Let me know if you need any further info - Chris
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Last Edit: Jun 18, 2017 21:00:50 GMT by Deleted
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Jun 18, 2017 21:27:11 GMT
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Great, many thanks, the fine filler and glaze are interesting, probably avoids the repeated coats of high build primer I usually seem to need.
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froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
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One you might know grumpy , how much weight do you think three paint jobs on a fibreglass van would add ? Solid colour 2k . And took lots of primer to get it something like the first time
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One you might know grumpy , how much weight do you think three paint jobs on a fibreglass van would add ? Solid colour 2k . And took lots of primer to get it something like the first time Going to have to make some assumptions here has it depends on size of vehicle / how much paint used / density of paint & colour of paint has lighter colours take more to cover than darker colours - mid to light reds can also take a fair amount of paint to cover repair areas - 2K solid colour paints tend to cover pretty well though - so 2K solid colour paint - 1 litre weighs approx 1150 grams - Hardener on 2 paint / 1 Hardener (normal mix ratio for 2K) 1150g + 575g = 1725g - say if you used 2 litres of colour that comes in at 3450g of paint on the vehicle - 3 paint jobs at a rounded up 3500g = 10500g + some heavy primer filler coats and you would be somewhere is the ballpark of having 12 - 14 kilos of paint on the vehicle in theory - however some of the paint will be lost to overspray so you can scale that back but I would not be surprised if you had somewhere in the region of 7 - 10 kilos of paint on the vehicle that has had 3 x 2K paint jobs
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froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
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Jun 20, 2017 10:46:48 GMT
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The current shell is in two halves as it was mid engined but it's now having a different engine in the front so it's s choice between using a spare complete shell or bonding the old one back together meaning even more weight . Does mean taking moulds off the old shell to make the big arches etc but they will also be s lot lighter than the old shell which were built on the car so a fair excess of glass and filler to get the shape . Bare std shell with no doors weighs 80kg so I've got something to compare it with
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Jun 20, 2017 11:17:51 GMT
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The current shell is in two halves as it was mid engined but it's now having a different engine in the front so it's s choice between using a spare complete shell or bonding the old one back together meaning even more weight . Does mean taking moulds off the old shell to make the big arches etc but they will also be s lot lighter than the old shell which were built on the car so a fair excess of glass and filler to get the shape . Bare std shell with no doors weighs 80kg so I've got something to compare it with Having now seen the size of the van you could scale my estimate back a bit has you would paint that with a little over a litre of 2K high solid content colour so I would estimate a 5 - 8 kilo paint weight
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froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
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Jun 20, 2017 11:52:10 GMT
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Thanks for the reply , I thought 2k solid colour was a bit heavier then base and laquer .
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