moglite
Part of things
Posts: 814 
Club RR Member Number: 144
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Bringing this one back to the top, as I want to spray some 2K at home. I'm not looking at doing a whole shell, and I've got a big extractor fan fitted to the garage. To summarise: Air fed mask is tricky and expensive to do at home. Disposable carbon mask, some say works fine, but you still need goggles and of course gloves. So I've thought laterally, and looked at fireman style breathing apparatus. I got this setup from a wasp exterminator from eBay for £65 !!  New I think it would be close to a grand, but others have sold for <£100, so they are out there. The 3L bottle was out of test. But I've got a dive shop 10 mins down the road, that tested and filled the 3L cylinder for £53 I think they only rate the small cylinder for 15mins in the diving world. But on the surface and not breathing hard, and not needing much of a safety margin, I'm hoping to get double that. Which in reality I believe is quite a lot of painting time. The visor even came with a spectacle frame, so I'll get some +1 lenses thrown in there.  The only other thing I'll need is some disposable visor protectors, so I don't get paint on the main visor. Being only a small cylinder, the waistcoat is easy and comfortable to wear. The fit of the mask is good, as it is a truly scary thing to wear with the bottle turned off, it will suffocate you. So is this the £120 solution to spraying 2K at home ? |
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1967 Morris Oxford Traveller
1979 Toyota LandCruiser BJ40
1993 Daimler Double Six
2007 Volvo XC70 2.4D
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cjj
Part of things
Posts: 275
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Bringing this one back to the top, as I want to spray some 2K at home. I'm not looking at doing a whole shell, and I've got a big extractor fan fitted to the garage. To summarise: Air fed mask is tricky and expensive to do at home. Disposable carbon mask, some say works fine, but you still need goggles and of course gloves. So I've thought laterally, and looked at fireman style breathing apparatus. I got this setup from a wasp exterminator from eBay for £65 !! New I think it would be close to a grand, but others have sold for <£100, so they are out there. The 3L bottle was out of test. But I've got a dive shop 10 mins down the road, that tested and filled the 3L cylinder for £53 I think they only rate the small cylinder for 15mins in the diving world. But on the surface and not breathing hard, and not needing much of a safety margin, I'm hoping to get double that. Which in reality I believe is quite a lot of painting time. The visor even came with a spectacle frame, so I'll get some +1 lenses thrown in there. The only other thing I'll need is some disposable visor protectors, so I don't get paint on the main visor. Being only a small cylinder, the waistcoat is easy and comfortable to wear. The fit of the mask is good, as it is a truly scary thing to wear with the bottle turned off, it will suffocate you. So is this the £120 solution to spraying 2K at home ? These look very similar, no? www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Drager-Pp10s-Confined-Space-Escape-Breathing-Apparatus-Rescue/333563884054Makes me wonder if one of the kits where you just stick a big hose in fresh air is as good? |
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moglite
Part of things
Posts: 814
Club RR Member Number: 144
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yeah - they look very similar, but no waistcoat.
Super cheap though.
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1967 Morris Oxford Traveller
1979 Toyota LandCruiser BJ40
1993 Daimler Double Six
2007 Volvo XC70 2.4D
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lebowski
Part of things
Hillman Avenger, Clan Clover
Posts: 456
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Excellent idea! I'm tempted to buy one too. I need to spray some epoxy primer soon and there seem to be mixed reports about whether a proper air fed mask is necessary. My compressor struggles to run the spraygun, nevermind a mask as well, so this could be an affordable option.
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Bringing this one back to the top, as I want to spray some 2K at home. I'm not looking at doing a whole shell, and I've got a big extractor fan fitted to the garage. To summarise: Air fed mask is tricky and expensive to do at home. Disposable carbon mask, some say works fine, but you still need goggles and of course gloves. So I've thought laterally, and looked at fireman style breathing apparatus. I got this setup from a wasp exterminator from eBay for £65 !! New I think it would be close to a grand, but others have sold for <£100, so they are out there. The 3L bottle was out of test. But I've got a dive shop 10 mins down the road, that tested and filled the 3L cylinder for £53 I think they only rate the small cylinder for 15mins in the diving world. But on the surface and not breathing hard, and not needing much of a safety margin, I'm hoping to get double that. Which in reality I believe is quite a lot of painting time. The visor even came with a spectacle frame, so I'll get some +1 lenses thrown in there. The only other thing I'll need is some disposable visor protectors, so I don't get paint on the main visor. Being only a small cylinder, the waistcoat is easy and comfortable to wear. The fit of the mask is good, as it is a truly scary thing to wear with the bottle turned off, it will suffocate you. So is this the £120 solution to spraying 2K at home ? These look very similar, no? www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Drager-Pp10s-Confined-Space-Escape-Breathing-Apparatus-Rescue/333563884054Makes me wonder if one of the kits where you just stick a big hose in fresh air is as good? Let me just make one thing very clear - 2K / 2 Part paints are very dangerous to your respiratory system regardless of the fact if they are isocyanate or isocyanate free - you mix a paint with a hardener and it cures - breath this in and effectively you seal your lungs shut - face masks used within an environment where 2K paints are being applied need to be positive fed - in other words the pressure within the mask area needs to be greater than the external air pressure to prevent the ingress of paint contaminated air - you cant just put a hose from an external non pressure feed air source and think that it will do the job - further to this if you are utilising any air compressor source for the mask it needs to be filtered to breathing quality - If the compressor is workshop (within the spray area) sited it needs to draw its air externally - unsure if the idea above will work but its far better than a normal facemask that others think will be ok - other things to consider is that the extraction system within the workshop needs to exchange the total air volume of the spray area of a rate at least twice per minute - and the body absorbs the paint vapour through the skin / eyes etc hence the wearing of the correct PPE is essential Now just to add to the conversation it needn't be that expensive to kit yourself up - I found a high quality pro use 'Iwata' full face mask @ £250 www.spraygunsdirect.co.uk/index.php/masks/airfedmasks/iwata-full-face-airfed-mask-kit-2020.html#sthash.8rjV28Nq.dpbsSounds a lot of money but it would pay for its self and if you only used it a few times and no longer required it you would always get at least half your money back on resale |
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Last Edit: Jul 5, 2020 9:33:15 GMT by Deleted
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cjj
Part of things
Posts: 275
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Let me just make one thing very clear - 2K / 2 Part paints are very dangerous to your respiratory system regardless of the fact if they are isocyanate or isocyanate free - you mix a paint with a hardener and it cures - breath this in and effectively you seal your lungs shut - face masks used within an environment where 2K paints are being applied need to be positive fed - in other words the pressure within the mask area needs to be greater than the external air pressure to prevent the ingress of paint contaminated air - you cant just put a hose from an external non pressure feed air source and think that it will do the job If you have an air-tight sealed breathing apparatus, and use a manual 'snorkel' type air feed (such that is is lung-powered, with several meters of hose), 'vented' to breathable air (e.g. atmospheric), then I can see neither: - How the paint can be breathed in (as I say, air-tight mask) - How the external air wouldn't be breathable quality |
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Let me just make one thing very clear - 2K / 2 Part paints are very dangerous to your respiratory system regardless of the fact if they are isocyanate or isocyanate free - you mix a paint with a hardener and it cures - breath this in and effectively you seal your lungs shut - face masks used within an environment where 2K paints are being applied need to be positive fed - in other words the pressure within the mask area needs to be greater than the external air pressure to prevent the ingress of paint contaminated air - you cant just put a hose from an external non pressure feed air source and think that it will do the job If you have an air-tight sealed breathing apparatus, and use a manual 'snorkel' type air feed (such that is is lung-powered, with several meters of hose), 'vented' to breathable air (e.g. atmospheric), then I can see neither: - How the paint can be breathed in (as I say, air-tight mask) - How the external air wouldn't be breathable quality If its air tight - then fine - but how do you know that and how do you test it External air down a long pipe - Pretty sure it would be a breathable quality - I'm not medically trained but I'm pretty sure that you are asking a awful lot of your lungs to draw the air down the pipe - how do you specify a pipe of the correct diameter to ensure that you achieve the correct air flow rate - secondly it would require some type of a one way valve to prevent exhaled air being forced down the pipe that you are relying on fresh air from - sure it's achievable - but at what cost Has already stated it's not that expensive to kit yourself up properly - so why go taking risks with something that you think (in theory) will do job - If it was that easy a solution that's exactly what every trained & qualified paint sprayer would be adopting We have not even touched upon how you would manage a airline plus a air tube of larger diameter - getting them around the vehicle / panels without snagging / getting caught up and catching a panel that you have just applied paint to / condensation created within the sealed mask from your exhaled breath falling from the exhaust valve on to your newly painted panels etc - Its not has easy has you think it is but not that difficult or expensive to do it properly either |
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Last Edit: Jul 5, 2020 11:38:01 GMT by Deleted
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cjj
Part of things
Posts: 275
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If you have an air-tight sealed breathing apparatus, and use a manual 'snorkel' type air feed (such that is is lung-powered, with several meters of hose), 'vented' to breathable air (e.g. atmospheric), then I can see neither: - How the paint can be breathed in (as I say, air-tight mask) - How the external air wouldn't be breathable quality If its air tight - then fine - but how do you know that and how do you test it External air down a long pipe - Pretty sure it would be a breathable quality - I'm not medically trained but I'm pretty sure that you are asking a awful lot of your lungs to draw the air down the pipe - how do you specify a pipe of the correct diameter to ensure that you achieve the correct air flow rate - secondly it would require some type of a one way valve to prevent exhaled air being forced down the pipe that you are relying on fresh air from - sure it's achievable - but at what cost Has already stated it's not that expensive to kit yourself up properly - so why go taking risks with something that you think (in theory) will do job - If it was that easy a solution that's exactly what every trained & qualified paint sprayer would be adopting We have not even touched upon how you would manage a airline plus a air tube of larger diameter - getting them around the vehicle / panels without snagging / getting caught up and catching a panel that you have just applied paint to / condensation created within the sealed mask from your exhaled breath falling from the exhaust valve on to your newly painted panels etc - Its not has easy has you think it is but not that difficult or expensive to do it properly either I'm talking about kits that already exist and are used for enclosed spaces/pest control etc, so the physics and stuff are already sorted for it to be fit for purpose I guess. As for testing, you apparently kink the hose and check that you can't breathe in or something. As mentioned, they are a thing that exists, but not in the context of spraying cars that I am aware of. This is from the context of Joe Bloggs who might do a small smart repair or trim parts once a year, so not a regular person or something that would require much mobility. For those sorts of people, plumping out on £300+ of air fed mask is likely to be out of budget, whereas you regularly see the above sort reasonably priced (what with having a limited niche for it second hand). |
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The fireman kit is fine, good idea!
Chris is right about 2K being bad for you but he's a little misinformed about 'sealing your lungs shut'
2K causes Asthma like symptoms - COPD where you struggle to breath. Once sensitised even the slightest whiff of 2K will give you COPD at any time in the future.
You don't always suffer from it from a single big exposure - it can also build up gradually over time. Before it was understood properly it was often the office staff in paint shops that were affected - the painters were fine as they had the masks on.
As an aside - grinding rust is far worse for your lings and is more akin to Chris's description. The rust particles get into the extremities of your lungs and stay there forever - causing limited lung capacity and possible shortness of breath.
Wear masks for anything dust/aerosol related!!!
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If its air tight - then fine - but how do you know that and how do you test it External air down a long pipe - Pretty sure it would be a breathable quality - I'm not medically trained but I'm pretty sure that you are asking a awful lot of your lungs to draw the air down the pipe - how do you specify a pipe of the correct diameter to ensure that you achieve the correct air flow rate - secondly it would require some type of a one way valve to prevent exhaled air being forced down the pipe that you are relying on fresh air from - sure it's achievable - but at what cost Has already stated it's not that expensive to kit yourself up properly - so why go taking risks with something that you think (in theory) will do job - If it was that easy a solution that's exactly what every trained & qualified paint sprayer would be adopting We have not even touched upon how you would manage a airline plus a air tube of larger diameter - getting them around the vehicle / panels without snagging / getting caught up and catching a panel that you have just applied paint to / condensation created within the sealed mask from your exhaled breath falling from the exhaust valve on to your newly painted panels etc - Its not has easy has you think it is but not that difficult or expensive to do it properly either I'm talking about kits that already exist and are used for enclosed spaces/pest control etc, so the physics and stuff are already sorted for it to be fit for purpose I guess. As for testing, you apparently kink the hose and check that you can't breathe in or something. As mentioned, they are a thing that exists, but not in the context of spraying cars that I am aware of. This is from the context of Joe Bloggs who might do a small smart repair or trim parts once a year, so not a regular person or something that would require much mobility. For those sorts of people, plumping out on £300+ of air fed mask is likely to be out of budget, whereas you regularly see the above sort reasonably priced (what with having a limited niche for it second hand). You are very welcome to crack on and take the risks obviously from the context of your posts keeping your funds to a tight budget over that of your health is far more important - but why would you bother for a small small smart repair or a few trim parts when there is an abundance of perfectly safe & proven single pack products that you can use with minimal health risks (face mask still required but these are freely available at very economical costs) |
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Could you hire the proper kit as a middle way?
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cjj
Part of things
Posts: 275
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You are very welcome to crack on and take the risks obviously from the context of your posts keeping your funds to a tight budget over that of your health is far more important - but why would you bother for a small small smart repair or a few trim parts when there is an abundance of perfectly safe & proven single pack products that you can use with minimal health risks (face mask still required but these are freely available at very economical costs) Mainly because at the end of the day, 2K Clear is far superior to 1K. You can get UPOL 1K quite reasonably of course, but it is going to be softer and more susceptible to UV than 2K will be. As per the context of what is being said, I am curious as to what the inherent risks are in comparison - an air-tight mask with fresh-air delivery versus compressor-fed FAA. It' s not a case of filter versus no filter - it simply is (to my view) a somewhat comparable solution, just different industrial purposes. I guess I was curious as to the logic/scientific benefit, but with all due respect the thread has three years of you shooting down any attempt to discuss the very purpose of it. I understand the health risks and how naive some people can be, however there doesn't really seem to be any pragmatic reasoning taking place here - just belt and braces. |
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You are very welcome to crack on and take the risks obviously from the context of your posts keeping your funds to a tight budget over that of your health is far more important - but why would you bother for a small small smart repair or a few trim parts when there is an abundance of perfectly safe & proven single pack products that you can use with minimal health risks (face mask still required but these are freely available at very economical costs) Mainly because at the end of the day, 2K Clear is far superior to 1K. You can get UPOL 1K quite reasonably of course, but it is going to be softer and more susceptible to UV than 2K will be. As per the context of what is being said, I am curious as to what the inherent risks are in comparison - an air-tight mask with fresh-air delivery versus compressor-fed FAA. It' s not a case of filter versus no filter - it simply is (to my view) a somewhat comparable solution, just different industrial purposes. I guess I was curious as to the logic/scientific benefit, but with all due respect the thread has three years of you shooting down any attempt to discuss the very purpose of it. I understand the health risks and how naive some people can be, however there doesn't really seem to be any pragmatic reasoning taking place here - just belt and braces. What is there to discuss - you either wear the correct PPE for the task or you don't - pragmatic reasoning wont alter that or remove the risk - you obviously think that you know far better than anything that I have learnt in the last 40 + years of professional automotive refinishing - so you will just have to find out for yourself the hard way PS - Somethings in life are very much belt & braces and for good reason too because if they weren't then they have a good likelihood of seriously damaging your health PSS - Here is the Health & Safety Executives opinion & advice on the subject matter - maybe you might like to advise them that its bit too belt & braces for own liking www.hse.gov.uk/mvr/bodyshop/isocyanates.htm |
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Last Edit: Jul 5, 2020 19:37:30 GMT by Deleted
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Could you hire the proper kit as a middle way? Unfortunately I have never come across anyone / business that does hire has such - bodyshops tend to issue them to staff has personal PPE rather than one mask for all users due to hygiene reasons - and many painters keep their own has their own personal kit |
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I have a an old air pump from an hottub in a different building and feeding a face mask through a 1" pipe, loads of positive airflow works a treat.
only problem is managing the 1" pipe as well as the air line.
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When I painted my jag I had an air fed mask and used two compressors, one powering the mask through the filter and the other running the spray gun. I cable tied the two air lines together for around 10 metres but it was a bit of an akward setup.
I put the compressor for the mask outside in the back of an old estate car to keep it dry in case it rained and to quieten it a bit.
The main problem for me isn't the mask but the size of the compressor required, I ran the two of different supplies (one off the garage and the other off the house) as one needed 2.25kW (around 10A) and the other 3kW (around 13A) still with both running off different circuits the load was less than an electric shower.
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Oh and as Grumpynorthener has mentioned above don't use isocyanate based paints or anything that the manufacturers safety data sheets say needs a full air fed resperator without one, its like playing russian roulette, you might be alright or it might ruin your life.
If you can't do it properly don't do it all and also consider the neighbours and the effect it might have on them.
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,322
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Haha someone put a penny in the northerner again...
Ofcourse you can use a BA set just like you can in any hazardous environment but I'm not sure it's going to work out cheaper for anyone. Have you got the kit to fill the tanks? Those escape sets wont last you long, they are litrally just for emergency escape use. A proper BA set that will last a decent length of time enough to paint a car is alot more bulky and I wouldnt want to paint a car with one.
An air fed mask isnt expensive really. Nore are a few old compressors and the carbon filter to use it. Hell you could even make the BA mask into an air fed with a few holes and some foam maybe don't tell the health and safety police 🙄
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moglite
Part of things
Posts: 814
Club RR Member Number: 144
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Ofcourse you can use a BA set just like you can in any hazardous environment but I'm not sure it's going to work out cheaper for anyone. Have you got the kit to fill the tanks? Those escape sets wont last you long, they are litrally just for emergency escape use. A proper BA set that will last a decent length of time enough to paint a car is alot more bulky and I wouldnt want to paint a car with one. I don't have the space for a 2nd compressor, hence looking at the BA kit, which I can bung in the loft when not using. I want to spray some Raptor underseal which is 2K and a few other bits and bats. I'm sticking to celly for the main car. But for completeness my dive shop is 10mins away and charges 7.50 to fill the bottle, normally while you wait. I think it is a solution that will work for me, and I'll hopefully be alive to tell the tale afterwards. |
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1967 Morris Oxford Traveller
1979 Toyota LandCruiser BJ40
1993 Daimler Double Six
2007 Volvo XC70 2.4D
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Although the raptor product is 2K does it contain isocyanate? What do the safety data sheets says?
I am considering using it on my MK2 when I get that far but hadn't looked into what would be required to spray it yet.
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