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Jan 11, 2017 12:03:47 GMT
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As the title says, I'm in the market for a new daily and I keep seeing cat C or D on car ads. I know basically that it means a car has been put back on the road after being written off. What I want to know is what sort of damage or mechanical problems would lead to a cat c or d? Is there somewhere you can find out this info on specific cars? Some of the ads do say why the car's got the c or d status others don't. Not being mechanically minded am I right to be wary of cars like this? Thanks. I compensation for a dull question have a cool car pic.
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Jan 11, 2017 12:10:30 GMT
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ksry
RR Helper
Posts: 135
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Jan 11, 2017 12:52:27 GMT
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I deal a lot with 'salvage cars', I buy them directly from the salvage yards so I know what the damage is, my current three cars are all salvage, one cost me £10 to repair (bumper bar I got from ebay)had gently hit a lamp-post, bumper was fine, my Daily (Vectra, needed a new wing, headlight and bumper, after some careful pressing, wing was fine, headlight was replaced and the bumper has some incredibly heavy duty holding it together and the third looked a right mess when I originally purchased as my intention had been to breaking, but a bonnet, bumper, headlight and bumper bar later, and it was fine.
These are all relatively old cars though so have been fairly easy, non-structural repairs, if a car has been written off within 5 of it being produced, I'd personally avoid, unless it was vandal damaged as these tend to be a lot more severely damaged, if they weren't they'd have been repaired. Flood damaged cars are also something to be a bit wary of, once dried out, they can be fine but its only a matter of time before the electronics play up,
Just my two cents
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Jan 11, 2017 12:56:05 GMT
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Google it everyone has a different opinion and you'll find 1000,s of threads about it. I've had a few cat c cars over the years the only problem come when you come to sell it. Some people will run a mile some like me will buy it on the condition its in there and then. All depends on the car and value your buying i guess. The vic check is nothing to do with the quality of the repairs some people will list as vic passed and pam it off as if it does. All the vic check does is check the vehicle identity check hence VIC.
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Jan 11, 2017 13:32:29 GMT
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don't need a vic check any more, it was abolished seeing as from nigh on a million tests they did only found 40 ringers.
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Jan 11, 2017 13:45:22 GMT
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In simple terms, a Cat D car is one which has been assessed by insurers and repair quotations have exceeded 50% of what they believe to be the value of the vehicle. A Cat C car is one that exceeds 100%. You shouldn't be any more or less wary of them than any other vehicle and every vehicle should be inspected thoroughly as say for instance you went to view two cars, which were identical models. One was a Cat D, but was mint and repaired to a high standard and only suffered cosmetic damage. The other one had no marker against it and looked in good condition on the surface, but had been involved in a heavy impact and underneath it had been repaired poorly, but as no insurance claim was ever made against it, it wasn't a Cat D or C. Therefore you may decide that car is a better buy, even if it is probably advertised at substantially more money. I've bought and sold hundreds of Cat D cars. As someone in the industry of repairing cars (properly), in the vast majority of cases I buy them in their damaged state, so I know exactly how they have been repaired, but if they have been repaired correctly or they're straight and just need some cosmetic tidying then that's fine, but it's always good to have a photo of a car in its damaged state and a photographic record of repairs. There is no problem selling them on. Naturally people would expect to pay a percentage below market value of the equivalent non-categorised vehicle, but as long as you've bought it at the reduced percentage in the first place then everyone's a winner. But remember that if you are buying or selling a car like that, you should expect the percentage to be taken off a non-cat car in the equivalent condition. ie/ If the Cat D car is a low mileage minter, knock the percentage off an equivalent straight one. I know I'd rather have a mint, properly repaired Cat D car to a ropey, abused, high mileage non-cat car. When the insurers come up with the valuations, in many cases they will only use brand new genuine parts and main dealer labour rates. Plus in a lot of cases they will add on storage costs and hire car expenses to the repair estimate. So it is very easy for cars with next to no real damage to be written off. I can give you three examples based on cars I own/have owned recently. This MINI Cooper I bought as a Cat D car, unrepaired a couple of years ago to use as my daily driver. Here it is in its damaged state: Just a little dent by the headlight. An otherwise mint, pampered, low mileage example, spotless inside and out. Cat D for something which most people wouldn't even worry about insurance on. All I did was give the bonnet a thrash with the panel hammer to get the headlight alignment right and took it for MOT and started to use it straightaway (it was MOT'd anyway, but worth having it checked over). Then a couple of week later, pulled the dent out, tight skim of filler, repaint the bonnet, job done. Second example, I don't have any pics to hand, but a 55-Reg KA. Bought direct from Copart online salvage auction. Was a Cat C with no noticeable damage at all. Turns out it had been hit lightly on the rear, but the bumper was undamaged as it sprung back into shape, but lift the carpet and the boot floor was kinked ever so slightly, but didn't affect the car in any way. Took it straight for MOT, which it just needed a new rear number plate light for. That was the only thing that was damaged. Still use the car today as a runabout/Courtesy car Third example, I recently bought an Audi A1 TDi Sport with the intention of repairing it to replace the above KA as a runabout/courtesy car. This was one of the more heavily damaged cars I've bought. Certainly in terms of the way it looked anyway. Was mostly bolt-on bits that were damaged, but we did have it on our jig as the one chassis leg had been pushed out a couple of mm and needs a new dash as the passengers airbag had been deployed. When I came to apply for the V5, I contacted the DVLA I was unsure whether it would be a Cat D or Cat C (as you don't have to pay the £20 for a Cat C for a replacement V5). I thought it was going to be Cat D, but wasn't sure. Anyway, turns out it was neither and despite being vastly more substantially damaged than the other two cars (and most that I buy), It's not on V-Car at all. Again, it's a car that can be repaired perfectly, but still a good example of what to look for and how Cat D or indeed Cat C can be something or nothing at all in reality.
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Specialist Bodyshop & Fabrication Classic, Retro, Prestige & Custom Small Repairs to Concours Restorations Mechanical Work Vintage to Modern
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Jan 11, 2017 17:41:25 GMT
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Thanks for the replies. what I'm taking from this is that Cat C/D isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as you do the same checks and ask the same questions you would with any other used car. I'm not really bothered about resale value as I'd probably keep the car for the rest of it's natural life.
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Jan 11, 2017 18:15:57 GMT
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There are plenty of cars with much more damage to them still on the road than anything on the register.
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,251
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Jan 11, 2017 23:13:11 GMT
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There are plenty of cars with much more damage to them still on the road than anything on the register. You took the words out of my mouth. IME CAT Cs and Ds are not a problem as long as you do your homework. Midland Performance & Retro has said exactly what I have said previously. The issue IMO is not with CAT Cs or Ds but with the unrecorded cars. As an example I once had a Peugeot 106 GTi. HPi clear. It has to be one of the most bent front ends I have ever had on a car. I managed to make it align OK but TBH with inner wing damage it was always going to be a compromise: If you look at the wing alignment before I fitted replacement panels they are horrendous. Even after I messed around they were not perfect. retrorides.proboards.com/thread/113427/1998-peugeot-106-tatty-daily?page=1I've had a few cars become a CAT D including: -a Focus 1.6 Zetec. It had a front ender which was my fault and TBH it had a front ender previously that had gone unrecorded when my mate had it. The mileage made the insurance company write it off. I used that to my advantage so as to repaint the front end which TBH was not perfect and fit a Collection bumper on. Even with a new slam panel and crash bar the bill wasn't too bad. -Pug 306 GTI-6. This got made a CAT D due to a mild front ender. The bonnet and wings were not touched at all. To look at the car you would not have known bar the front looking very clean. I bought it as a repaired car and TBH it was one of the cleaner cars I saw for sale. But many Saabs and Rovers will now be written off as you cannot even get the parts anymore to repair them! If you want madness for writing cars off check this out. A set of seats can make an Audi RS4 a CAT D! No I am not joking: www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/10703514/The-Audi-seats-being-stolen-to-order.htmlWould you honestly turn down an RS4 due to a marker as a result of the seats?
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Last Edit: Jan 11, 2017 23:14:25 GMT by ChasR
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I have seen a 2 year old cat c polo for sale on a major salvage auction site, the damage was a trolley dent down one side.
I have also seen a 2 month old passat that was cat d, it was in a right state, front end destroyed and the engine snapped off the mounts.
What I'm trying to say is,you really need to see it in its damaged state or do a hpi to find out how old it was when it was written off.
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Jan 12, 2017 12:53:15 GMT
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If your not mechanically minded I wouldn't take the risk, unless you can see accident damage photos to prove it was only light damage.
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Jan 12, 2017 13:17:07 GMT
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This is mine fixed it Last year to use as my main car. Two doors for £50 each and bit of filler an paint on the wheel arch. Doesn't look too bad. Good enough for a run around. cat C or D doesn't really matter I think. Basically if the car is a brand new 20 grand car, it must have had a lot of damage for an insurance to pay out 20k instead of fixing it. If you buy cheaper cars, they will be put on the register for minor damage as it still costs a lot to repair. My advise is to buy a car that was worth between 2-3k before the accident, as the damage won't be a severe to write off cheaper cars.
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Last Edit: Jan 12, 2017 13:20:49 GMT by pauly22
1994 BMW 525i touring 2004 BMW Z4 sorn and broken 1977 Ford Escort 1982 Ford Capri getting restored 1999 Mazda B2500 daily driver.
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Jan 12, 2017 13:49:30 GMT
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Basically if the car is a brand new 20 grand car, it must have had a lot of damage for an insurance to pay out 20k instead of fixing it. Not true at all. Depends on the insurance company and in some cases the owner too. 50% of value on car to make it cat D. Some car parts new from main dealers are enormously expensive. Plus very easy to rack up a labour bill for thousands just on cosmetic work at main dealer labour rates. Plus if insurance adds on storage costs whilst car is waiting to have paperwork done and then waiting for the car to be repaired, plus cost of hire car on top. I've got a 2008 XK-R, which I've owned for almost 5 years now and that was a fully loaded car (£89k new). Obviously it had lost a lot of value in its first 4 years ir whatever being that type of car, but was still £30k+ worth at the time undamaged and that was Cat D for minor damage, but when you add up that a new bonnet was thousands on its own. The headlights (had swivel option, HID option and side facing corner light option) were £1900+VAT each from Jaguar, front bumper was massively expensive too, 3 front grilles, front foglights, a badge. It has pedestrian airbags to deploy the bonnet. So needed two new bags, an array of sensors connected to that, and a new ECU for that system. Jaguar won't reset the old ECU (even though it can be done). That is many thousands in itself for Jaguar to do the job. Plus paint, materials, bodyshop labour and any other costs the insurance want to add on. It's easy to rack up big bills for minor damage. Also, the breakdown of the bill can be determine whether the car is written off or not. Not sure exactly how that works and guess different insurance companies work differently, but the most recent example was repaired a Chevrolet Matiz for an insurance company. It belonged to the mother of one of our regular customers who didn't want the car to go anywhere else. We gave our quote to the insurance company and they said the estimate would write the car off and they didn't want to. I expected them to ask to shave a little off the price as they often do, so we always quote a little more for insurance companies than we would public customers as we know they will ask for a reduction in labour rates or they'll say the hours their system estimates for repair is an hour or two longer than ours. Even if we quote low, they usually try and shave a bit of because that's what they try to do, hence going on the high side we can usually agree on the "right" price. On this occasion though, they didn't ask for a reduction in price, they just wanted the figures moving around to be more on materials, less on labour and move more onto a price for wheel alignment. Not sure of the ins and outs, but know that affects it. Have a look at Copart or similar places, LOTS of nearly new cars written off for not bad damage. Last time I was at Copart a 16 reg MX-5 (just after the 16 reg came out) on 519 miles was there and whilst that was more heavily damaged than the cars I've mentioned, it wasn't overly bad.
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Specialist Bodyshop & Fabrication Classic, Retro, Prestige & Custom Small Repairs to Concours Restorations Mechanical Work Vintage to Modern
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Jan 12, 2017 17:24:43 GMT
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"Beyond economic repair" tends to be the phrase the insurers use. Examples of my "write off" cars over the years : Hunter (still in daily use) - vandals/morons broke the windscreen. No panel or paint damage. The insurers couldn't find anywhere with one in stock, they quoted £1200 & 12 weeks to custom make one to fit. I ended up not claiming on the insurance and fitted a good used screen (I was offered 2, one was free, 1 was £30) Citroen AX - SHMBO bumped a car when parking, the other car needed paintwork, the AX had a broken clip on the bumper and chipped paint. Insurers said they would write the AX off if I claimed as the paintwork would be about what the car was worth. It cost £3 for a spraycan for the bumper, and the bumper clip never did get fixed. Peugeot 205 (when it was fairly new) - cute blonde another driver swerved to avoid me when I was parked and rolled their car It clipped the back quarter of the 205 on the way past. Car was still fine to drive but the insurers wrote it off due to cost of parts/labour/paint. It cost under £50 for a panel from a scrapyard fitted and painted. A chap I worked with had his Princess written off when his door got dented in a carpark. He fixed it with a £20 door from the scrapyard. I wouldn't be concerned* about Cat C or D ( insurers see the cost of new panels + labour + £££ paintwork I see a dent I can live with or fix with used parts and a spray can ) * If it was a big crash and it's been bodged back together, be concerned!
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Jan 12, 2017 18:33:33 GMT
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Jan 12, 2017 22:54:38 GMT
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Even on the more heavily damaged cars there, once you've stripped off the parts that bolt on, which are neither here nor there, there won't be an awful lot to put right with them.
Just depends what price you can buy them for and whether it's worth the price of the parts and time to repair them.
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Specialist Bodyshop & Fabrication Classic, Retro, Prestige & Custom Small Repairs to Concours Restorations Mechanical Work Vintage to Modern
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More useful info. Just reinforces the need to do my homework on individual cars (which would anyway). The cat c & d seems to cover such a wide range of issues.
Obviously I'd prefer a daily with a flawless service history and 1 careful owner but if there was a choice between a car that's been treated like curse word and maintained on a shoestring or a well looked after car that was damaged by thieves, the repaired (just to make a hypothetical example) then I'd go for the second one.
Thanks.
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What type of car/budget are you looking at, just out of interest?
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Specialist Bodyshop & Fabrication Classic, Retro, Prestige & Custom Small Repairs to Concours Restorations Mechanical Work Vintage to Modern
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Jan 13, 2017 13:28:31 GMT
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What type of car/ budget are you looking at... ^ Very relevant. Most modern cars are designed to crumple around the valuable car-buyers customers passengers, so a gentle hit can cause a lot of problems under the surface. I often used to race Vovlo 340s, thinking they would be almost indestructible. What I found was everything outside the cabin got bent bery easily - but the inside with me in it was safe. My 205 looked like it was *just* the rear quarter that was hit, but close inspection showed a crease running across the roof between the B-pillars
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Jan 18, 2017 23:16:17 GMT
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just negotiating to buy my missus a cat C car (so far she has bought herself a car each of the past three years, the last of which has just gone bang so i will do it this time and hope it lasts a wee while!) a V plate Saxo and it looks mint, damage is fully documented and it was basically dents to two doors, nothing. it is also £200 less that a micra of same age and less spec with a huge dent to both doors and to the sill?!
problem i have with the categories of right off is they are not age considerate. A cat C 5/6 car will have had vastly more damage than one classed as cat C aged 10+ but the effect on prices etc seems to be the same. however i guess, as with all car things, pays to be vigilant!
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