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I wonder if anyone with a bit of knowledge about how autoboxes work can help me out here?
I've bought a BMW M52B28 to drop into my 110. At present it runs a ZF4hp22 autobox from a V8 model, and I'm still trying to decide if I should stick with the auto or go with the manual box I have sitting.
At present the main stumbling block is how the V8 valve block would cope with the BMW. My knowledge of autoboxes stretches far enough to know it basically looks at the engine speed (input) the road speed (output) and throttle position to decide which gear it wants to be in, with various settings altered to give different shift points, TC lockup speed etc to suit the engine.
From this I can deduce that there's going to be some difference as the V8 has its peak torque at 2600rpm, and peak power at 4750, compared to the BMW at 3900rpm and 5300 respectively. Add in the functional redline of the V8 is about 5200rpm on a good day, whilst -with an alteration to the ECU settings- the BMW will spin up to 7000rpm.
So, whilst I reckon canny use of the throttle would see the engine and box working fairly well, I find myself thinking that the TC lockup and shift into 4th gear could well find themselves murdering the engine just as it's coming on song rather than making the most of what's on tap.
Is my thinking straight enough here?
I don't want to fit an EH box and associated controller as my wallet won't allow it, and finding a BMW varient of the 4HP22 to rob the valve block from also seems prohibitively expensive, whilst I wouldn't be best pleased if I'd made up the adapter kit and found it horrible to drive.
Build it with the manual box seems a more attractive option all the time.
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squonk
Part of things
Posts: 858
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Jan 10, 2017 18:55:59 GMT
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I would contact Ashcroft Transmissions and ask them. They are probably the foremost authority on the 4HP22 as fitted to Land Rovers and Range Rovers. They produce uprated versions themselves and can re-program the valve block to suit any requirement. www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/
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2004 Chevrolet Avalanche Z71 2005 Mercedes CLK320 Cabriolet 1996 Mercedes C180 Elegance Auto Saloon 1996 Rover 620Ti (Dead fuel pump) 1992 Toyota HiLux Surf 1987 Range Rover Vogue (Rusty) 1992 Range Rover Vogue SE (More Rusty) 2006 Chrysler Grand Voyager 2008 Corsa 1.4 Design
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Jan 10, 2017 20:23:30 GMT
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I have my suspicions they would try to sell me a rebuilt EH box with a Compushift controller, at a mere £1300 plus VAT.
Considering I'm aiming to have the engine in the vehicle and drivable for £300 or so it's a non starter.
Make an adapter to put it onto an R380 it is then.
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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Jan 11, 2017 11:13:53 GMT
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^That. Just go manual and use the on board computer in your skull to sort out the gearshifts.
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Jan 11, 2017 12:20:33 GMT
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get a bmw auto box and stick the transfer case on the back?
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Jan 11, 2017 12:21:39 GMT
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would you need an adapter if you used an R380 from an M51 powered P38?
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Jan 11, 2017 12:54:04 GMT
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would you need an adapter if you used an R380 from an M51 powered P38?
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Jan 11, 2017 13:31:54 GMT
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The valve block is all I would really want from the BMW box, the rest of the Land Rover internals are a lot tougher than were supplied elsewhere, but again the expense of buying a BMW box, if I could find one.
A diesel P38 gearbox would do the job of joining engine and box, but asides the expense of buying one, I'd still need to swop the input shaft into a Defender type box and be left with needing a dual mass flywheel, and a pull off clutch.
The V8 pattern R380 I have is near brand new, and I can make an adapter which fits it up with a standard Land Rover flywheel, and clutch etc, which keeps things a lot simpler, especially when the adapter will be less than £100 if I make it up myself.
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Jan 11, 2017 14:19:46 GMT
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Jan 11, 2017 14:40:51 GMT
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EH box unfortunately, so back to the electronics controller problem.
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marinacoupe
Part of things
Marina Coupe, Triumph Stag
Posts: 178
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Jan 24, 2017 14:08:43 GMT
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Why not go to the LR ZF 5HP24 4x4 version used in RangeRovers and Discos. They sat behind the Rover V8 and have the correct bellhousing.
If you are 2WD then use the LR bellhousing and the 2WD ZF 5HP24 from a Jaguar.
Either way you get an overdrive (5th) top gear. The 2WD version is popular on Rover V8 converted Triumph Stags.
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Jan 24, 2017 18:34:43 GMT
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The 5 speed was never used in Land Rover stuff. The Rover V8 either had a TF727, or a 4HP22/24.
The problem with using a V8 box is the valve block is setup for an engine with a 5500rpm redline and a 2900rpm peak torque, not one with a 7000rpm redline and a 3900rpm peak torque.
I'd be less than pleased to put it all together and find it didn't drive worth a wibblepoo.
The manual box should tick the boxes of working well with the M52, and being cheap because I've already got one.
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marinacoupe
Part of things
Marina Coupe, Triumph Stag
Posts: 178
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Jan 24, 2017 18:57:20 GMT
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You are right, my mistake, the Stags use the 4HP22/24 bellhousing onto the Jaguar 5HP24 box.
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squonk
Part of things
Posts: 858
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Jan 24, 2017 19:32:22 GMT
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Or how about get a ZF4HP22 from a TDi Discovery complete with the correct torque converter and adapt whichever bellhousing is the most suitable to mate to the BMW engine.
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2004 Chevrolet Avalanche Z71 2005 Mercedes CLK320 Cabriolet 1996 Mercedes C180 Elegance Auto Saloon 1996 Rover 620Ti (Dead fuel pump) 1992 Toyota HiLux Surf 1987 Range Rover Vogue (Rusty) 1992 Range Rover Vogue SE (More Rusty) 2006 Chrysler Grand Voyager 2008 Corsa 1.4 Design
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Jan 24, 2017 20:28:14 GMT
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As above, valve blocks are the problem.
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,161
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Don't know if it helps, but I've got a ZF 5HP18 that was bolted to a M52 you can have, if you want to collect it!
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Jan 26, 2017 17:45:32 GMT
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Thanks for the offer chap, although I've just removed one of the same from the back of the engine.
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,161
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Jan 26, 2017 18:31:39 GMT
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Well, that's the limit of my knowledge, good luck!
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squonk
Part of things
Posts: 858
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Jan 28, 2017 22:18:39 GMT
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The problem with using a V8 box is the valve block is setup for an engine with a 5500rpm redline and a 2900rpm peak torque, not one with a 7000rpm redline and a 3900rpm peak torque. I know that this engine was fitted into locally built SA Land Rovers (90's, not 110's I think) but I'm wondering what the point is of this conversion? An engine with these torque and power figures is not particularly suited to a 2 tonne housebrick. The power output is virtually identical to the RV8 but at higher revs, and the torque is only slightly more but at a very unfriendly (for this application)3900 rpm. I suspect that once fitted it will be extremely dissapointing and probably use more fuel than the RV8 by nature of the fact that it will need to have its nuts revved off in a lower gear all the time to make any progress. A vehicle with the weight and aerodynamics of the Land Rover needs an engine that produces high torque at a lower speed otherwise you will be continuously rowing the car along on the gearbox. I would have thought that a decently tuned TDi would be far more suited to this - in standard form the automatic version has the same torque as the BMW but at a far more usable 1800 rpm. A zero cost tweak to the pump can easily release another 25 - 50Nm. (I am not a TDi fan at all but it seems to make more sense in a 110). Even a RV8 on LPG would be far more suited and probably cheaper to run. Can't really see how this conversion makes any sense - it probably won't even tow very well due to the lack of low speed torque. Bearing the above in mind, if you go ahead with this I'd fit the manual box as it will probably have to spend much of its time in third gear to keep the engine close to its power/torque peak in normal driving. An auto will be up and down all the time and will be a total nuisance. Apologies if this is not in agreement with your thoughts.
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2004 Chevrolet Avalanche Z71 2005 Mercedes CLK320 Cabriolet 1996 Mercedes C180 Elegance Auto Saloon 1996 Rover 620Ti (Dead fuel pump) 1992 Toyota HiLux Surf 1987 Range Rover Vogue (Rusty) 1992 Range Rover Vogue SE (More Rusty) 2006 Chrysler Grand Voyager 2008 Corsa 1.4 Design
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,194
Club RR Member Number: 170
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ZF autobox knowledgeChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
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Jan 28, 2017 22:54:45 GMT
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You are right, my mistake, the Stags use the 4HP22/24 bellhousing onto the Jaguar 5HP24 box. To my knowledge the Triumph Stags have never used the 5HP24 box ; it's too big. They use the 4HP22 gearbox with a modified BW35 bellhousing and an adaptor plate to mate the gearbox and bellhousing together.
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