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Mar 18, 2016 15:54:10 GMT
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www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehiclesHmmm seems an awkward one as the monocoque HAS been altered therefore losing the 5 points required to keep the original reg number. However, if this was converted prior to the rules changing and logbook successfully changed then all could be well. Difficult one, looks a lovely conversion as well, probably worth phoning to check up. Looks like it would get a q if required pretty instantly but of course that's not always to everyone's liking. The engineers report bit is pish as well, I had to have this done years ago for an import and it was literally a letter I wrote signed by an mot tester.
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VIP
South East
Posts: 8,302
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Mar 18, 2016 17:46:48 GMT
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He could have insured it as a banana, it doesn't change the fact it needs to go through a BIVA and be correctly registered on a Q plate and it's just waiting for the DVLA to revoke its v5 Does it though? It's not been built up from other parts or had the floor pan changed? I could be wrong of course but that was what I thought the BIVA thing related too. There's been a lot of incorrect information banded about on the internet before now, I was told my cossie needed to be put on a q because I built one car from two, absolute nonsense confirmed by the DVLA, shell retains its id and the other is now scrapped, end of story. Monocoque cut = IVA. There's no grey area regarding this. |
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VIP
South East
Posts: 8,302
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Mar 18, 2016 17:48:25 GMT
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www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehiclesHmmm seems an awkward one as the monocoque HAS been altered therefore losing the 5 points required to keep the original reg number. However, if this was converted prior to the rules changing and logbook successfully changed then all could be well. However the logbook still says 'hatchback' as confirmed above, so unfortunately this doesn't apply in this particular case. |
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ozips
Part of things
Posts: 267 
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Mar 18, 2016 17:55:36 GMT
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Well u can never win wen selling a small car with a big engine...most people want it as a small engine so they can insure it as a small engine..then u have people who don't,it was insured as a 20L and a pick up and never had a problem with the law....not mine just trying to HELP a mate,ring him and have chat with him and am sure he will yell you what he thinks on the matter.
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Mar 18, 2016 18:10:44 GMT
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www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehiclesHmmm seems an awkward one as the monocoque HAS been altered therefore losing the 5 points required to keep the original reg number. However, if this was converted prior to the rules changing and logbook successfully changed then all could be well. However the logbook still says 'hatchback' as confirmed above, so unfortunately this doesn't apply in this particular case. Yeah true, not something I was aware of until recently. Wonder how these lads get away with 4wd Sierra floor pans with mk3/4 escort tops on them? Probably just not declaring it? Tbh there's always going to be people who can live with it and those who can't, the likelihood of the DVLA revoking the v5c is minimal unless highlighted to them and it has been insured correctly. It would be worth notifying them of the engine upgrade at least and even try changing the number of doors to "2" as my guess is some 17 yr old girl in there wouldn't pay much attention to it. However it is a gamble that they don't pull it in for inspection. An old acquaintance used to do this years ago to escorts, buy a 3dr escort, change the logbook to "2dr" and put that id onto a cabriolet shell that had either been q plated or written off, finance owing etc. Not even slightly legal of course but he had and sold on at least 4 or 5 like that. Maybe even a few still going about today!!! |
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VIP
South East
Posts: 8,302
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Mar 18, 2016 18:16:51 GMT
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However the logbook still says 'hatchback' as confirmed above, so unfortunately this doesn't apply in this particular case. ...the likelihood of the DVLA revoking the v5c is minimal unless highlighted to them and it has been insured correctly. MOT testers are obligated to decline to test and notify the DVLA/DSVA when a vehicle is presented for testing that does not match the details registered. Given the heavier and heavier penalties they can suffer for turning a blind eye, I think you'll see less and less friendly testers in this respect. |
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Mar 19, 2016 14:05:28 GMT
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most people want it as a small engine so they can insure it as a small engine.. I think your 'most people' might be a different bunch to mine. |
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Rob M
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,915
Club RR Member Number: 41
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Mar 19, 2016 15:26:39 GMT
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How strange. If that had stayed a hatchback, albeit modified mechanically etc as it is now, it would have sold super quick. It would have been a gorgeous hatchback.....  Now its destined to spend eons doing the rounds on forums and ebay. |
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taurus
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,084
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Mar 19, 2016 15:49:04 GMT
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Whatever the views about its paperwork I have seen this on the road and it looks fabulous.
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Mar 21, 2016 14:24:23 GMT
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He could have insured it as a banana, it doesn't change the fact it needs to go through a BIVA and be correctly registered on a Q plate and it's just waiting for the DVLA to revoke its v5 Not to mention VED fraud for being still 'taxed' as a 1.2 when it's now in the higher bracket. Why are you moaning if you don't like it, don't buy it simple |
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Previously owned
12 mini,s
mini moke
sabre sprint
reliant ss1
nova,s
205
fiat 126
mk4 escort van
reliant ti
ms jiffy pickup
gtm coupe
chambers special
wolseley hornet
mini jem
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VIP
South East
Posts: 8,302
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Mar 21, 2016 14:53:51 GMT
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Not to mention VED fraud for being still 'taxed' as a 1.2 when it's now in the higher bracket. Why are you moaning if you don't like it, don't buy it simple No-one is moaning - folks are entitled to build whatever they want, and if they ignore the rules, that's their own decision as grown-up people. However when things like this come up for sale, naive buyers may unwittingly find themselves in a potentially sticky case, like the DVLA rendering their new purchase unregistered, or if they are not careful enough checking the V5C, unwittingly committing VED fraud when they tax their new car. In order to help prevent that, it's important that any buyer knows exactly what they are letting themselves in for, and can make a clear judgement what risks they are taking, or what actions need to be done once they've purchased said vehicle. |
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Last Edit: Mar 21, 2016 14:55:24 GMT by VIP
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jmcm
Part of things
Posts: 35
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Mar 21, 2016 17:22:25 GMT
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Hi,
I may be reading the link wrong but it states the following
Your vehicle must have 8 or more points from the table below if you want to keep the original registration number. 5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame.
It doesn't state the original has to be unmodified only a new one. As most older cars are likely to have corrosion repair or accident repair thus making them modified to some extent.
It reads a little grey to me, as the and in the stamement relates to the word new.
Just a thought I am sure someone has done this and will know the correct answer, it looks like a very nice little Nova such a shame to see it doomed
Thanks
JM
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Last Edit: Mar 21, 2016 17:43:17 GMT by jmcm
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Mar 21, 2016 18:57:17 GMT
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It's the "monocoque " but that causes the issue. Simply replacing like for like panels is no problem, replacing rotten metal for good is also ok but due to altering the structural integrity of a vehicle it is altering things like shell ridgity etc.
I agree it's a peach of a car but there could certainly be an issue if for instance you crashed into another car or hit a pedestrian as no doubt it states in your insurance documents that the v5c must state any changes like colour or engine etc.
If it was something like an old tvr on a separate chassis effectively you can put whatever you want on top as it's not a monocoque design.
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jmcm
Part of things
Posts: 35
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Mar 21, 2016 19:15:11 GMT
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I understand what you are saying, but that would mean that cutting a chassis leg like on a Mk1 fiesta for a 5 speed, cutting the crossmember for a turbo down pipe would mean the car would be on Q plate?  ?? Or cutting in to the wheel wells for wheel arch extensions would also be a Q plate As all these involve modifying the monocoque All seems a little carzy to me and the stament reads that new and original are treated differently why else would use and in the statement Bizarre I just think it's unfair to the sellar. I understand the colour change and engine size change which can be rectified easily but the suggesting the car need be a Q registration with out being 100 percent sure seems unfair to me at least anyway JM |
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Last Edit: Mar 21, 2016 19:21:47 GMT by jmcm
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VIP
South East
Posts: 8,302
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Mar 21, 2016 19:33:25 GMT
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...suggesting the car need be a Q registration with out being 100 percent sure seems unfair to me at least anyway JM We're 100% sure that cutting a monocoque into a pick-up is instant IVA territory. Actually cutting a chassis leg for a 5-speed conversion, and cutting a cross member to fit a turbo is also IVA territory. Same with arch extensions if you mean cutting the rear arches and split the inner and outer skins from each other, then reattaching them further up. You're confusing the term 'original' to mean 'the one it came with', whereas 'original' actually means 'as per factory specification'. You can cut a roof for a sunroof, as long as none of the cross braces are touched. Crash repairs don't count as you may be cutting parts out, but you're then replacing it with identical metalwork putting it back to the exact same specification it was before. Cutting the shell to change it to a different than original specification means IVA. |
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Last Edit: Mar 21, 2016 19:45:00 GMT by VIP
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jmcm
Part of things
Posts: 35
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Mar 21, 2016 19:58:37 GMT
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You're confusing the term 'original' to mean 'the one it came with', whereas 'original' actually means 'as per factory specification'.
I disagree if that was the intended meaning then why add unmodified to the statement about new in the stament from the DVLA below
Your vehicle must have 8 or more points from the table below if you want to keep the original registration number. 5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame.
Part Points
Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer) 5
Suspension (front and back) - original 2
Axles (both) - original 2
Transmission - original 2
Steering assembly - original 2
Engine - original 1
Get a ‘Q’ registration number
You won’t be able to keep your vehicle’s original registration number if one of the following applies:
it has fewer than 8 points
it has a second-hand or altered chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame
there’s evidence that 2 vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie ‘cut and shut’)
Your vehicle must pass the relevant type approval test to get a ‘Q’ prefix registration number.
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VIP
South East
Posts: 8,302
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Mar 21, 2016 20:43:36 GMT
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You're confusing the term 'original' to mean 'the one it came with', whereas 'original' actually means 'as per factory specification'. I disagree if that was the intended meaning then why add unmodified to the statement about new in the stament from the DVLA below Your vehicle must have 8 or more points from the table below if you want to keep the original registration number. 5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame. Part Points Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer) 5 Suspension (front and back) - original 2 Axles (both) - original 2 Transmission - original 2 Steering assembly - original 2 Engine - original 1 Get a ‘Q’ registration number You won’t be able to keep your vehicle’s original registration number if one of the following applies: it has fewer than 8 points it has a second-hand or altered chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame there’s evidence that 2 vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie ‘cut and shut’) Your vehicle must pass the relevant type approval test to get a ‘Q’ prefix registration number. With respect, you can disagree if you so choose, the term original definitely means 'not changed from factory specification'. In the part you quote above it clearly says "You won't be able to retain your vehicle's original registration number if...it has a second hand or altered...monocoque body shell" You're also reading the 8 point rule as the 'original' OR 'new and unmodified', whereas the actual meaning is 'original or new' AND 'unmodified'. There is a subtle but very distinct difference between those two statements. The IVA and SVA before it have been around long enough for us to establish what the terms mean. It isn't a new Law that folks are still trying to understand the new jargon about. |
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Last Edit: Mar 21, 2016 20:48:57 GMT by VIP
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jmcm
Part of things
Posts: 35
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Mar 21, 2016 21:10:31 GMT
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Hi
The last point makes it clear
although this has the ability to effect lots of retro cars, a little worrying.
but thanks for your explanation about altered body shell.
apologies
JM
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VIP
South East
Posts: 8,302
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Mar 21, 2016 21:44:10 GMT
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Hi The last point makes it clear although this has the ability to effect lots of retro cars, a little worrying. but thanks for your explanation about altered body shell. apologies JM Absolutely no reason to apologise. The rules aren't known by everyone and can be ambiguous. It's cases like this where opportunity arises to help clarify things. It's when the rules aren't known or understood that folks end up spending lots of money and find themselves in a sticky situation. |
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