Yeah so I mentioned something about Jaguar parts...
Well one of the million things on my mental check-list is that there were no new hockey-stick/club-foot seals, for the rear main bearing-cap, in my Imp gasket sets and I couldn't find any for sale online. I have since seen that you can get them from Imp Club Spares - either on their own or in a gasket-set - but the bottom-line is that I didn't have any new ones when I went to assemble the engine.
I never throw anything away until I'm sure it's safe to bin so definitely had the originals somewhere. I also have a Jag V12 and, a while ago, bought 4 similar seals for the Jag. I'm sure I had a Eureka moment back then and thought 'wonder if they would fit the Imp' and did a comparison and they were a marked different length, iirc.
Anyway. While looking for the Imp ones the other night I found myself with 3 used ones that looked same length and turned the place upside down trying to find a fourth (ie 2 pairs) but couldn't. I just found 4 NOS Jag ones (which makes no sense as I have the crank installed in the V12 block now and don't think I used old ones in the cap so how do I still have 4 NOS? )
So of the 3 used ones 2 looked identical, and different to all the others, so they must be from the Imp. I compared these 2 with the NOS Jag ones again and they seemed to be an identical length/thickness etc so God knows what I thought I saw last time .
Looking closer at the probably-Imp ones I came to thinking the heads are just distorted (from being fitted badly?) and all the seals I have are actually identical. Trying the 3rd (odd) used one in the Imp cap the shape of the head looked correct, as did the length/thickness so I just used 2 of the NOS ones and am 99.9% sure it's the same part.
The Imp WSM did say something about sharp edges on the sump mating-face and despite being very careful installing the cap I ripped one of the seals so it was lucky I had more of them. I put some grease on the block to help the cap go down without damaging the seals and it worked great 2nd time. I was constantly checking the club-foot bits to see they were getting pulled out of their pockets. The one that got torn was obviously getting drawn up as the foot was bent when I removed it.
So it looks like my Imp engine may have leaked from day#1 due to damaged seals. The gearbox is covered in oil actually.
When I got home I posted on the Facebook page about the Jag thing and there were a few thumbs-up, a wow (from an Imp specialist) and comments from the experts saying they've been available for ages, someone had them specially made (but doesn't advertise that they are for sale). That kind of thing. "Aye alright, ffs, I wasn't saying everyone must stop using Imp ones and use the Jag part!"
Someone else Googled the Jag part and found they are an extortionate price. Like £17 for one. I'd forgotten that bit. I checked my records and found I'd got them at £8 a pair, from Russia
Ended up with four as I thought it was £8 for one.
The other weird thing was putting my piston assys back and reading the manual it was saying about making sure new tab-washers are fitted but I had none. More hours checking of tubs and looking at old pics ensues and still looks like I had none and am almost certain the bottom-end has never been dismantled before.
I looked at the parts lists and in later (Chrysler) one is said the washer were to be fitted if fitted originally. I therefore posted about this on the Facebook page and someone came up trumps with some (Chrysler-era) service information explaining that they decided to delete the washers and the chamfer on the bolt-holes in the cap was changed to go with this.
Looking again at the parts list it shows revised numbers for the bolts and caps and specifies 'See Data 2A/289'. I looked up the Scorpion Engineering PDF and, sure enough, that shows 289 as 'conrod alteration' or something.
My engine is pretty early tho so after all this someone prob just lost the washers. I should really order some new ones. The Club has them. Or should I..........?
assembling bottom-end but have no seals for rear-main cap
searching for the old seals I find 2 same and 1 different
also have NOS Jaguar seals which I thought were different length to Imp ones
this doesn't look right
odd-one-out used seal looks perfect fit
length looks right
decision made to use NOS jag seals
making sure feet stay in place as cap pressed down
seal bunching-up as it goes down
one NOS seal ruined
big-end caps may or may not need lock-washers. without washers chamfer at bolt holes is wider apparently
Tab washers on crank bolts used to be common place, better understanding of joints nowadays has concluded they may actually make the bolt more likely to come undone (they add a layer of compressibility into the joint), hence nobody has used them for 30 years. The chamfer is to make sure the head of the bolt is contacting the face of the cap and it's not contacting in the radius between the shank and head of the bolt, should be easy enough to check. I don't re-fit tab washers on the A series I just make sure the bolt head contacts the cap and use a dab of loctite.
Tab washers on crank bolts used to be common place, better understanding of joints nowadays has concluded they may actually make the bolt more likely to come undone (they add a layer of compressibility into the joint), hence nobody has used them for 30 years. The chamfer is to make sure the head of the bolt is contacting the face of the cap and it's not contacting in the radius between the shank and head of the bolt, should be easy enough to check. I don't re-fit tab washers on the A series I just make sure the bolt head contacts the cap and use a dab of loctite.
Yip that's basically what the Chrysler guidance (from 1975) was saying but I wasn't sure how to explain. You've done that now
So another small detail I came across this week is to do with the Sport pistons...
I got a new (later) Parts List a few weeks ago and noticed on Section A - Notes - Page XI Note 60 that Sport pistons can be identified by number 7100701 cast into the skirt.
This might be old news to experts but I can't find any other mention of it online or in books I have and I did spend a lot of times a few years ago trying to establish if I have a Sport bottom-end (and never got to the bottom of it )
I think I was of the opinion my pistons may be, or may not be, Sport ones but now I can say for sure they aren't
In Tim Millington's book he says:
The later pistons are slightly heavier, having reinforced bosses and can be recognised by the number cast inside the skirt: 7101025. The heavier components should be used on Sport, Stiletto or tuned engines
This is a bit ambiguous as it doesn't say the 7101025 pistons were fitted to Sport engines, just that they should be. It's strange that he doesn't mention the 7100701 numbers as he must've seen a Sport piston at some time and was Rootes Senior Technical Author so he's the kind of guy that would know such a thing. Also makes me wonder what was cast inside the normal pistons before the heavier ones came out.
Another thing I gleaned was to do with the piston-grading: Looking at what was written in the manual, if the pistons are stamped A1, B1, C1 or D1 that can't be Sport pistons so you don't even need to look inside the skirt if you see that stamped on top. That wasn't the point of the guidance in the manual but in a rounabout way it answered myy question
I'm still puzzled about my engine as I was told by several people it had a Sport engine in it from day #1 and I don't think the bottom end has been changed so why would it have normal pistons? They could have been changed later I guess but my block is stamped B for all 4 bores and all the pistons are B1 so they seem to match. My car is a 1965 and the conversion work was done on it in 1966 (in Rootes Experimental dept) which is pretty early for a Sport engine so perhaps they just stuck a Sport head on a normal bottom-end.
reading this, from WSM, tells me Sport pistons can't have a 1 on them, after the letter
my pistons all have B1 stamped on them
bores were also all B
piston with 7101025 inside skirt, says TM, should be used in Sport engine but Sport piston would have 7100701 cast inside
It looked like complete scrap on the Marketplace listing but was only a tenner (plus I offered the guy £10 for hassle of posting it) and i have to say am glad I bought it.
It's really only one shell that is damaged (and the cowling) but I now have a spare fan and probably the best impellor of the 3 I now have.
I have a pair of empty shells so I may be able to make 1 pump out on the remains of 2 now.
What I was most pleased about tho was gaining so proper 'thick washers' for locating the cowl etc against the pump. Despite having 3 pumps before I had no proper fittings and could see pics online of pumps with lots of extra spacers and stuff.
Tinkering with this latest one and asking the question on Facebook has now got me 99% sure of what's needed to tie it all together. Might sound simple but with 4 bolts you are tying together the pump; the cowl; metal bracket; alloy bracket and the pump-casting is 2 different heights at the bolt holes.
In total (I think) you need: 4 bolts (2 different lengths); 4 nuts; 12 washers (4 different sizes)
Also had a bit fun dismantling the latest pump as it was pretty corroded but got there in the end without breaking anything.
£10 for remains of a pump/fan/cowl assy
other side
'new' unit, seen online, seems to have a lot of bits I don't have
another unit with same bits
tall bolt-locations on pump-shell appear to be on same level as plane that cowl would sit on
short locations appear to be 3/16" below the plane
start with original bolts (3 of 4) plus original washers (3 of 4) on top of cowl. must be correct - to stop bolts digging into plastic
then possibly rear-bracket and a thick (1/8") washer/spacer on the short bolt-locations plus thin washer (2 of 4?) between nut and other shell
we also have a gap between the tall bolt-locations and the cowl
spacer which goes between (metal) rear-bracket & (alloy) front-bracket is equal to width of water-pump (at short bolt-locations)which means no spacers or washers can go between pump-casting and brackets
bracket and 1/8" spacer/washer swapped places and thin washers fill gap between tall locations and cowl (hence only 2 needed)
So I think I have that all correct now, which I'm very pleased about, and I'm reluctantly saying the parts lists are wrong or incomplete on this one. It's very easy to blame the parts list when there is some sort of dubiety but this time I'd say it's wrong...
It shows two different washers and gives exact sizes for one. 4 of each. It then says they were superseded by a different number (8 of). Initially it was 4 5/16" ID x 3/4" OD x 20 S.W.G. plus 4 5/16" wave-washers. These would be for under the bolt heads and nuts.
There is no mention of the 1/8" washers or the thin 5/16" ID x 3/4" OD thin washers that go between the cowl and the fan-side pump-shell. Confusingly in the drawing it shows 3 longish spacers on the cowl-bolts and says there are 3 of them.
Turns out these are spacers for the fan but it was the drawing which made me think these spacers were what was appearing in the online pics of complete pump assemblies. I don't have these spacers either but am sure we'll get to the bottom of that later as I'm sure it's something to do with the early and late fans. One is stepped and one is flat.
To complicate matters I have 2 late fans but my car mb originally had the early type.
So going back to the pumps. Despite having worked out the way it all goes together I don't have a full set of washers & bolts. I reckon I need 2 5/16 UNF bolts at 3.25" long and 2 of same at 2.75" long. The latest pump has 2 of the short ones and the remains of two of the others and, as posted a while back, I had a bunch of mismatched bolts in my 'original' pump.
Similar bolts and washers will be easy enough to order from Ebay
So working my way thru the ancillaries I've been looking at the fuel-pump and the oil-filter.
I'll deal with the oil-filter first and also mention that I fitted my 2nd-hand oil pick-up/strainer last week when I put the timing-cover back on.
You may remember my original pick-strainer was waving around on it's body. I thought I might be able to re-secure it using the 'new' one as a guide for the correct angle of the pipe in relation the the body but that wan't a goer.
To get it to sit at the right angle I would have had to wind it in like another half turn but the threads were already bottoming-out against the body. I could have filled something off the end of the pipe to allow me to turn it in a bit further but didn't think it was worth the effort when the new one was fine. Also the pump is dated 1974 so isn't original anyway.
A while back I got new oil-filter elements and again was puzzled about bits missing from mine and/or the kits compared to the parts list drawing. This lead to quite a lot of chat on Facebook group about bits that are never included etc etc.
Anyway I took my original assy apart yesterday for a proper examination and found bits I hadn't seen first time around. Next thing I was cleaning the can with a wire cup-brush and had it repainted. Also took the relief valve out to check it and it seems fine so it's basically good to go.
I've not torqued the body onto the block yet as something is bugging me about the gasket....
A few moths back when I was dummy assembling the engine and stand I dropped all my new gaskets onto their locations and they were like new looking and coloured. Now on my filter location on the block I have a black oily thing so am searching for the new one to no avail.
Looking back thru all my old picks I see the block ages ago with no gasket on it so the original was either taken off or scraped off, I thine see a nice new one in a packet and from 4 months ago see it on the block. Did I take it off and put the oily one back on as it was a dummy-run or has the new one turned black dur to the dirty filet-body sitting on top.
I think it's probably the latter but I'm not searching around for another new one. It's either just use it as it won't be compressed or make a new one out of gasket paper.
filter can cleaned with wire brush
painted with black VHT (no primer)
pressure relief valve removed from body
seal for under head of relief valve still in body and is supple
valve cleaned
valve moving freely
plate which sits under filter element revealed its washer and seal
a new gasket was laid on block some months ago but now I have an oily one there
assy back on block. will torque nuts down once I give up looking for the new gasket
I didn't take the spring out this time but pretty sure this is a pic of the innards last time I looked at it. I have a Sport filter assy also and that has all the bits in it too but am sure this pic is of the STD one
parts from oil-filter assy. spring sits at bottom of can
Am still having a lot of bother getting the sill panels clean. Really don't understand what the issue is as it's working fine on other, more rusty, parts.
Am starting to think the metal might have been coated or zinc'd and that's interfering with the process. But if the panels were treated in some way it didn't do much good as they rusted-up quite badly.
I guess I could just buy new ones but it seems a shame to bin what are basically new, unused panels so I may persevere with this but there's something not right.
1st piece of rusty 5mm flat-bar after a day in electrolysis
same piece wiped with cloth. notice black colour
wire-brushed
inner sill after a couple of days. looked promising as paint falling off
I've tried allsorts of rust removal and electrolysis only worked for me to get rid of the heavier flaky stuff leaving the light stuff behind and can be a bit hit and miss.
The best for me is a bath of citric acid or hydrochloric acid (sold as brick/masonry cleaner). The hydrochloric acid is more aggressive. If you use either then you'll have to give it a bath of baking soda/water to neutralise the acid and stop the flash rusting.
+1 for citric acid, I bought some on Amazon (powder to dilute) worked much better for me than electrolysis.
That's a vented disc in an '(citric) acid bath'.
Another vote for citric acid, i've been using it for a while and its great. The last lot I ordered was this www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131447087703, it works even better when the water is warm. If the item is heavily corroded then it might need a rubdown after the first application but on the 2nd go it comes up lovely.
I think it was on my Daimler VDP thread that I talked about (hoping to) use some sort of gel on the inner wings and someone said just use tomato sauce. I bought the Deox Gel (expensive) and used it with cling-film etc then tried the sauce but am drawn towards the citric acid with wallpaper paste option.
Having said that I had decent results recently with sand-blasting (trailer thread) and was thinking about just masking-up the windscreen etc and using that on the engine-bay.
Problem with blasting tho is the noise, mess, lack of visibility and constant blockages etc
So going thru my pile of ancillaries (it's getting smaller) I had a look at the fuel-pump last week and it's good-to-go I reckon.
The diaphragm, despite being possibly 50+ years old, isn't holed or stiff and everything else seems fine.
The thing looked quite complicated in the manual but it was pretty easy to take apart and put back together but it seems there are variations and mine is the type which doesn't have removable valves. They are staked-in. Seems a bit odd.
I gave everything a thorough clean including the valves which seem to have a small membrane in them and they too look fine.
In other news I have started stripping-examining my distributors. I have 2 Sport ones (early and late), a normal one and one that isn't a 25D4 but may be from a late Imp or similar.
I'm going to use the normal one but will probably rob a few minor bits off the Sport one, which is in better condition.
I have accepted the oily gasket is the new one and the nuts are now tightened down.
I've put the sump on with new gasket. The other shrunken one wouldn't stretch back out with heat applied. The sump nuts aren't tightened yet as I'm still zinc-plating them and the washers. 7 nuts and 9 washers to go on still
I have new seals and bearing for the water pump(s) and have almost finished stripping the 4th (damaged one). I was drilling/'Dremeling' the remains of the seized bolt out of it. Still got loads of pics of the various water-pumps and the condition of their working faces but now that I've learned that the rubber seal doesn't spin on the housing am not sure that's so important. The seals are spring-loaded so should be tight against the casting and any imperfections in it.
It's the bottom carbon-faced part of the seal, spinning on the impeller, that is the crucial part. My new 'best of British' Dunlop bearings are made in China.
I also re-fitted the crank pulley, bolt, washer and tab-washer but bizarrely there is no torque-figure for it anywhere. No-one on forums etc can offer a figure - which surprised me. A couple of ppl suggested Googling generic figure for size of bolt but the problem with that is there is a huge spectrum of figures depending on rating of bolt (which isn't marked) and also the thread isn't a standard size (read a ten page argument about it on a Mini forum). Size appears to be 5/8" x 16TPI
lid c/w gauze removed from fuel-pump
what was under the lid
top and bottom parts of body separated
diaphragm removed from bottom part
bottom part with diaphragm removed
actuating arm can be removed from bottom part of pump but no wear felt so left alone
bottom cleaned
underside of diaphragm cleaned
top side cleaned
diaphragm still has its AC logos and apparently new ones are only single layer
bottom casting has a mark to locate diaphragm correctly
tabs on diaphragm in line with indicator on casting
not sure what stamps on pump casting mean
poppet valves can't be removed from top casting so cleaned in-situ
view of valve from top
gauzed cleaned and back in place
gasket for lid/gauze showing a witness-mark
washer under screw for lid is actually fibre, not metal. manual says vital it is in good condition or pump will not work
pump back on rocker-cover showing priming lever
new Dunlop bearings for water-pump
made in China
4th pump stripped and cleaned but still to get remains of seized/broken bolt out
Sport (violet) and normal (orange) distributors next up for examination
A bit like the water-pumps this post could turn into several with lots of same same but different pics of 25D4 distributors but it helps me get things straight in my head and gives me good reference-photos should I need them later.
So I decided to start with the STD distributor 41122 and, seeing it had some ropey-looking bits, took the Sport 41132 one apart in same fashion. I noticed a few parts differed slightly on them but I don't think it's because one is Sport. EG the post which holds the points is a good bit longer on one and am sure I read somewhere afterwards that this was simply a later design.
It also struck me that the units are basically the same. Well I suppose they would be as they are both Lucas 25D4 but the only real differences are in the advance/retard mechanisms and the vacuum thing. I think the caps differ to, for some reason. But, essentially, if you had a Sport one with a damaged body or worn shaft you could transfer the appropriate bits into any better unit to achieve your desired version.
The cloth-covered earth-wire(?) on my STD one looks really frail and it's sort of permanently attached to the base unit so you can't really fit a new one. Other little wires (for points and condenser) had also come adrift and were tucked in to where they were supposed to be instead of fixed securley and naturally all the screws were a little chewed up.
I didn't get as far as removing the advance things with the small springs etc but when I do that I'll give the bodies a good clean and examination before putting them back together. I can feel a little wear in the dog (?) on the end of the shaft on the STD one but the shaft itself seems good in its bearings.
When I got back home to a PC I had a good search to see what bits you can get and tried to establish what size screws I need. You can buy some listed as being for Lucas distributors but not all of them so I may as well just find generic ones.
As before the dots in the pics are just so I know later which unit(s) I'm looking at
STD distributor showing a couple of chewed screws and loose wires
wires and screws on Sport unit look better but one of screws which holds baseplate to body has worn head
adjuster for vacuum unit is stuck and damaged
STD unit. nut removed from terminal that 2 green wires go to
STD unit. condenser and the loose wire join terminal-nut plus low-tension lead with nylon insulator(?)
STD unit. points removed c/W white plastic insulator thing on terminal
STD unit. baseplate with points removed. note frail wire fixed to baseplate
close-up of wire shows perhaps just the dirty cloth covering which is damaged
STD unit. post for fixed part of points is very short
Sport unit. has washers under the terminal-nut
Sport unit. nut & washers removed plus nylon insulator(?)
Sport low-tension lead (violet) shows (orange) parts from STD unit belong together
Sport unit. post for fixed part of points much longer than one on STD unit
Sport unit. points-screw and washers put back on baseplate after removing points
Sport unit. points look a little different to other ones
Sport unit. rubber washer under points assy noted
trying to work out TPI (over 1/4") for 1/8" screws which hold baseplate to body
doing same for thicker, shorter points-to-baseplate screw
screw which hold points-cam to shaft looks to be same thread as points screw but shorter with wide head
After a bit of measuring and Googling I reckon the screws are all BA so have ordered a BA screw-pitch gauge, for around a fiver. Better than guessing...
In other news I have bought and received an old-stock wheelarch repair panel from a helpful guy on Marketplace (£45 posted) and a pack of various thicknesses of gasket paper. Main reason I wanted this is for the carb(s) as I can't seem to find a suitable rebuild-kit.
both the wires should be of the braided type, standard wire doesn't last, the low tension wire with the plastic bit that slots in the side is widely available, the base plate earth was part of the baseplate assy on some or seperate on others, they are available to.
So I got my BA (British Association) screw-pitch gauge (£4.99 posted) and am 99.9% sure the screws are 4BA and 2BA. Quite hard to take a picture off this holding the gauge on the screw with one hand and using the camera with the other but the pics turned out good I reckon.
I have my 1st body-repair panels (excluding the sills) and am really pleased with it. Not sure what stickers were on it and why there is a big orange one on it but it looks well-made and offering it up to the Imp (driver's side) rear arch today it looked spot-on.
Also have my pack of gasket-paper (£5.99 posted). Some of the NOS gaskets I got recently were this brand (Flexoid) and it was one of those (sump) that had shrunk quite badly. Don't imagine this will be an issue with a gasket that is actually in place.
Lastly I got a rattle-can of Talbot Glenalmond Green paint. They'd probably get more sales if they listed these 'Talbot' colours under Rootes or Hillman but it will be interesting to see if the colour-match is any good. It was £15.75 for the can (inc P&P from Ireland) but if it's any good I will buy it neat from them in a tin. They sell it in 2 or 3 sizes up to 1 litre)
Also had a little victory with one of the distributors a few days back: as well as getting the last worn baseplate-to-body screw out I got the vacuum unit off without breaking anything. I heated up the knurled wheel with a propane torch and doused it with WD40 and the thing moved quite freely after that
baseplate to body screws are 4BA
points to baseplate screw (and cam to shaft screw) are 2BA
So I finally got a few hours back down the barn, after working every flippin' day this week.
There would be an emoji in there but they've gone now and also can't make font a different colour!
So yeah I was waiting on BA screws coming for the distributor(s) and fiddling with them last night also managed to further strip down the STD distributor and had a glance at a late Sport one I have.
So I ordered 3 types of screw:
4BA x 1/2 (pozi) for baseplate to body (£3.99 for 36)
2BA x 1/2 (socket-head) for points to baseplate (£5.50 for 6)
2BA x 3/8 (pozi mushroom) for cam to spindle (£3.49 for 30)
The 4BA fit great, altho I should really transfer the 'integrated' washers from the old ones to the new.
The 2BA socket ones are fine but I should have stuck with my initial choice of 3/8" long. As I said previously there is a mixture of washers used under the ones I have and the original screws were somewhere in between 3/8" and 1/2" long (0.45"?) but looking at pics with the baseplate removed and with or without washers there too much excess screw imo - altho they don't seem to foul anything when fitted.
The 2BA mushroom ones didn't work out as the head is too big to fit inside the cam.
Anyway after looking at all that I delved a bit deeper into the workings of the advance-weights and stuff. On my STD unit the spindle was quite stiff to turn and all the mechanism wasn't moving at all.
I had a quick look at my Sport one and that was like new. Spinning nicely with the weights moving out and in plus you could easily slide the parts up the shaft. I .'. at least knew the cam etc did come off that way so disconnected the 2 small springs and doused everything in ATF then started working the mechanism loose with my fingers. It took a couple of hours with minute movements getting bigger gradually but eventually all the bits came up off the shaft and I had a reference with the other units to see how they went back together.
I don't think I'll bother actually removing the spindle as there doesn't seem to be any wear or slack in it. However, at one point, I was trying to drive the pin out of the bottom since I didn't think I was going to succeed in freeing off the top parts and very gently tapping the pin I found it sort of locked the dog secure again and didn't want to be tapped out further anyway. Mb best to leave it be.
A quick glance at the late Sport unit shows it to be in the bast condition of the three (?) I have. All the screws seen undamaged and it has a rotor-arm too.
I think it's safe to say I can get one good unit out of the 3 for the initial start-up.
new 4BA screws fit fine in body
2BA mushroom screws no good here. head too big
new socket-head 2BA screws are a bit longer than originals (points to baseplate)
original screw with no washers
excess thread with no washer(s)
washers that were on unit replaced (unsure if original spec)
original screw with washers
new socket-screw with washers. too much thread exposed?
cam etc move freely on shaft of another unit
after a lot of to-ing and fro-ing and some ATF advance components came off shaft
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