Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,714
Club RR Member Number: 34
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19.5s aren't common over here. We seem to mainly have 22.5s on the bigger stuff, and 17.5s on the tiddlers. I've not found a source of UK ones, I think they're much more common in the States. Tyres for them are a good bit dearer than 20" rims too, from what I've found. I tracked down radial 8.25 and 7.50 20s for just under £200 each, with crossply ones from about £135. The 19.5s were about £300 each. I wouldn't touch bargrips with a barge pole. I've driven enough miles on them to never want to do another. They do have one advantage in addition to their low cost; you won't need to raise your gearing as you won't want to drive fast on them! To be honest, I've sort of resigned myself to forking out for a new set of radials for mine when the time comes as they make steering and stopping so much more predictable, and you don't get that crossply wandering with them. If you've already got some decent tyres I'd seriously consider sticking with them. The original rims were designed to allow roadside tyre changes without special tools, often without even removing the wheel from the hub. The hardest thing is getting an ancient tyre, that's been on there years and is rock hard, to move from where it's stuck on. Once you've had them off and cleaned and painted them it shouldn't be too bad. The low range side of the axle would be a nice thing to get working, but you're right, with a modern engine you'll not need the facility. Stripping it out might not be straightforward, but you could certainly leave it locked in high. I like the idea of a two speed axle, but they do add a layer of complication with speedo drives and control gear. If I had one I'd work out a way of using it, but as I don't I'm certainly not bothered enough to muck about swapping axles. What weight are you planning on running at? You know the pre-1960 MoT exemption for stuff over 3.5 tonnes is only valid if you're unladen? My mate is considering a petrol BMW V8 and manual box for his project, but he's planning on staying under 3.5t so wants to avoid the extra weight of a diesel lump. He's also not planning on doing many miles with it, so economy isn't his first concern. ive just had a looks and 19.5 seem pretty easy to get to me, around the same price or less as a 20. they start from 100 quid-ish, proper ridiculous brands though. £160 for a brand name i recognise. depends if any donor truck has them i guess. i stillt hink om going to stick to the original plan of buying a DAF to break as a donor, but will keep an eye out for a 10t model to see if it has the different axles and wheels. I'm familiar with bar grips, i don't find em too bad tbh. certainly no worse than a landy on mudders. never driven em on a truck though only a jeep. if i buy tyres for the original wheels ill be getting crossplies, i don't see why people don't like them, ive driven them daily for years, and on a truck they're ideal for carrying weight. my biggest issue is I'm missing a wheel though, and they're an odd american 5 stud that ford discontinued in the 50s. that and any brake upgrade over the single circuit non-servo drums will invariably mean adapters to make these fit again, which seems a bit pointless. the tyres i have are new but i don't know if theye 'good'. they're older and have some minor cracking. certainly better than whats on mind. weight is still something i need to figure out. i'll be over 3.5t, no question. i don't know what the bare truck weighs, ideally i need to get it working then go down the local weighbridge, its only a mile or so away. given the laws regarding it all, i think i may as well just get it plated high at 7.5t, even if itll only ever be 5 or so fully laden. i don't ever want to be in the position where i have to leave stuff at home cos I'm close to my weight limit. i think the american paperwork says 4.5t, but tbh thats just made up anyways. my license doesnt cover me over 3.5t anyway, id be using the 'pre-60 commercial but unladen' loophole to move it around and get stuff done until its finished, then ive budgeted to do the +C1 on my license as part of the build so i can drive it laden.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,714
Club RR Member Number: 34
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I know where there's a Mercedes atego going for spares if that's any good as a donor? i don't know much about em, will do some research, merc parts prices scare me though! did anything ever come of that daf horsebox you mentioned?
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,714
Club RR Member Number: 34
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The 6bt is a great engine, so if you can fit it, it'll be the best bang-for-buck. I saw one in a hot rod with a split intercooler - two small-area high-flow ICs, with one mounted in each wheel arch, running from one into the next. That might help fit it all in. A dragster I was reading about the other day had gone from twin turbos to a big single, but kept the twins IC setup, running the two in parallel as opposed to series. They reckoned that it was equally as effective as one big one. Running them in parallel also effectively doubles the through-flow of each IC, so you don't need to shell out for ones with massive pipes in and out. Maybe even finding a pair from something in a scrapyard to keep it cheap. I'm looking into this way of doing it for our 4x4 daf, as I want to tweak the 6bt in that a bit. thats more or less what i was thinking. i think a long thin one would go behind each bonnet vent, or in the wings (with appropriate protection) as you say.
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glenanderson
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,122
Club RR Member Number: 64
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Cool. Registering it at 7.5 ton is the best option I'd think. Give you plenty of leeway once it's built. Getting your test will be worthwhile too; you never know when it'll come in handy.
Yes, I've found tyres ok in 19.5", but I can't find wheels. Not without getting them specially made at £300+ each.
If you're planning on changing your stud pattern anyway, then I can see the sense in just swapping the axles. You'll just have to ponder a bit on the chicken/egg thing about what wheels, what tyres, what axles etc.. Modern 7.5 tonners are likely to be six stud on 17.5" rims, 10 tonners eight stud on 17.5" ones and 12 ton up will be ten stud 22.5"s. Older British stuff is either 16" six stud or 20" eight or ten stud. I'd be very interested if you turn up a source of eight stud 19.5" wheels in the UK, although I know they're common across the pond.
The crossply/radial debate could go on and on. I think crossplies are fine for stock wagons in preservation, pottering about unladen, but modified ones going quicker than their designers envisaged, carrying proper weight? Radials all the way for me. Agreed though, there's a lot of money to go into tyres with a classic truck, whichever way you jump.
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My worst worry about dying is my wife selling my stuff for what I told her it cost...
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,714
Club RR Member Number: 34
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theres a guy in norfolk selling large quanities (i.e. pallets full) of 7.50/19.5 8 stud truck rims for £36 each. he says theres off daf, man, iveco trucks and a lot of different small wheeled trailers (i.e. the ones that arent 10 stud). so I'm assuming that they should just bolt straight up to the heavier 10t axles, although that will cause gear ratio problems i guess. would be easier if i can find a truck that has it all as a package. according to the interwebs it might be a 12t truck i need to find.
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glenanderson
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,122
Club RR Member Number: 64
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Ooo. Got a link? My fag-packet calculations suggest that for a wagon running tyres around the same diameter as the original 7.50/8.25 X 20s, with a Cummins and ZF box, a final drive ratio around 5:1 is about what you're looking for. Obviously you'll need to go higher if you end up with smaller wheels. The DAFs with 6BTs in will have been built to sit at 70 on the motorway, hence the 4.1:1 diffs for the tiddly wheels.
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My worst worry about dying is my wife selling my stuff for what I told her it cost...
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glenanderson
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,122
Club RR Member Number: 64
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Not to worry, found them!
you do need to check pcds and such, but if they'll bolt straight up onto an eight stud DAF axle, then there's your answer: a ten ton DAF 45 donor vehicle for engine, box, axles and brakes.
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My worst worry about dying is my wife selling my stuff for what I told her it cost...
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I'm loving where this is going - bookmarked! I've just put a 10t F45 chassis no in the DAF computer (work at a DAF dealer ) and they were definitely on 17.5 rims. Then put in a F55 12t chassis number and they were fitted with 19.5 rims on 8 studs. so it looks like you need to be looking for any 12t DAF F55 right up until the LF was built (2001). The extra bonus is the F55 usually came from the factory with more power as standard (I know you'll turn it up anyway though ) The later Iveco Tector you looked at was fitted with the same Paccar engine as the Daf LF uses, and like you say are common rail and have the usual common rail issues! Phil
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Very interesting this. Have to ask, what are your plans for the flattie?? Selling? Sold? Keeping under bench? (only cos when one comes up i may buy it)
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Last Edit: Dec 1, 2015 17:31:35 GMT by Deleted
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Frankenhealey
Club Retro Rides Member
And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death
Posts: 3,875
Club RR Member Number: 15
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Welcome to the club Going fast is not the problem, stopping is What's the braking system on these?
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Tales of the Volcano Lair hereFrankenBug - Vulcan Power hereThe Frankenhealey here
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Ooo. Got a link? My fag-packet calculations suggest that for a wagon running tyres around the same diameter as the original 7.50/8.25 X 20s, with a Cummins and ZF box, a final drive ratio around 5:1 is about what you're looking for. Obviously you'll need to go higher if you end up with smaller wheels. The DAFs with 6BTs in will have been built to sit at 70 on the motorway, hence the 4.1:1 diffs for the tiddly wheels. Hope i'm not teaching anyone to suck eggs, but be aware the intended use of the truck determines how it gets to max speed, the long haul continental trip type wagons were geared different to the 'round town multi drop' type trucks ....... All to do with economy,cruising revs etc etc,When you order a truck you can specify the type of gearbox for the application you need. ( my new Daf has got an 8spd, 4 over 4 gearbox,which is completely the wrong box for what we need,its a pain in the neck,and i've already worn out the range change gear stick!! ... Thats what happens when the 'boss' takes over ordering new wagons!)
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glenanderson
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,122
Club RR Member Number: 64
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I'm loving where this is going - bookmarked! I've just put a 10t F45 chassis no in the DAF computer (work at a DAF dealer ) and they were definitely on 17.5 rims. Then put in a F55 12t chassis number and they were fitted with 19.5 rims on 8 studs. so it looks like you need to be looking for any 12t DAF F55 right up until the LF was built (2001). The extra bonus is the F55 usually came from the factory with more power as standard (I know you'll turn it up anyway though ) The later Iveco Tector you looked at was fitted with the same Paccar engine as the Daf LF uses, and like you say are common rail and have the usual common rail issues! Phil The only trouble with stepping up to a twelve tonner is that the axles and brakes might be a bit over-specced for a wagon that's going to run at seven and a half tons. They also might be wider as, certainly, seventeen tonners are. A twelve tonner will also be geared to sit at 56 on the 19.5s as it would have needed to be limited, whereas, while the ten tonner would have been similarly limited it would have needed higher gearing to suit the smaller wheels; thus fitting the larger ones to the eight stud ten-tonner axles would go away to correcting that. Can your work computer compare axle specs between the ten and twelve tonners? Are the twelve ton ones on full air, or are they still air over hydraulic? It might be better still to look at the ten tonner as the donor, and stick a set of bigger rims on it to get over the gearing issues. Welcome to the club Going fast is not the problem, stopping is What's the braking system on these? Dez is contemplating using the donor axles, so discs up front and drums at the back. Ooo. Got a link? My fag-packet calculations suggest that for a wagon running tyres around the same diameter as the original 7.50/8.25 X 20s, with a Cummins and ZF box, a final drive ratio around 5:1 is about what you're looking for. Obviously you'll need to go higher if you end up with smaller wheels. The DAFs with 6BTs in will have been built to sit at 70 on the motorway, hence the 4.1:1 diffs for the tiddly wheels. Hope i'm not teaching anyone to suck eggs, but be aware the intended use of the truck determines how it gets to max speed, the long haul continental trip type wagons were geared different to the 'round town multi drop' type trucks ....... All to do with economy,cruising revs etc etc,When you order a truck you can specify the type of gearbox for the application you need. ( my new Daf has got an 8spd, 4 over 4 gearbox,which is completely the wrong box for what we need,its a pain in the neck,and i've already worn out the range change gear stick!! ... Thats what happens when the 'boss' takes over ordering new wagons!) I know what you mean. I was driving pre-speed limiters, and when they had to be retrofitted to a wagon built to cruise at 60-65 they really felt held back at 56. Ideally, I'd think Dez needs to try and replicate the gearing of a 7.5 ton wagon once he's sorted his wheel/tyre/donor choices out, as he's planning on building it to that weight and will be free to do 70 on the motorways once it's done. I took another comparison pic today for you Dez, this time a loose 17.5" DAF rim with a 205/65R17.5 on it, next to a 7.50x20 mounted on my lorry: I also took some measurements for you, incase you get anything to compare them to: Apologies in advance for the mixed measuring units. I'm of the generation that was brought up bilingual in inches/mm and i tend to use whatever is closest to hand! 8.25 x 20s are approximately 37" in diameter. 7.50 x 20s are approximately 36" in diameter. 205/65R17.5s are approximately 29" in diameter. British eight-stud wheels have a PCD of 275mm and a centre bore of 221mm. Those DAF wheels have a PCD of 205mm and a centre bore of 160mm. The two axle ratios I've found for 7.5 ton DAFs are either 4.1:1 or 4.56:1, with the lower of the two an option and the higher the "standard fit". Maybe Phil can run some proper comparisons through his work computer for us though, as that is what I've gleaned from the internet, so a proper confirmation would be handy. All the best, Glen.
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My worst worry about dying is my wife selling my stuff for what I told her it cost...
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Yeah i think 7.5t is the way to go like you said. As for 70mph .... I used to get our old 05 plate lf45 off the clock ..( 80mph+). Until the limiting law kicked in!
Aim for 60mph ....70 not legal ......
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heathrobinson
Part of things
Broken everything
Posts: 848
Club RR Member Number: 111
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Nothing wrong with being able to leave smoking 11s all the way up to 60 though...
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The only trouble with stepping up to a twelve tonner is that the axles and brakes might be a bit over-specced for a wagon that's going to run at seven and a half tons. They also might be wider as, certainly, seventeen tonners are. A twelve tonner will also be geared to sit at 56 on the 19.5s as it would have needed to be limited, whereas, while the ten tonner would have been similarly limited it would have needed higher gearing to suit the smaller wheels; thus fitting the larger ones to the eight stud ten-tonner axles would go away to correcting that. Can your work computer compare axle specs between the ten and twelve tonners? Are the twelve ton ones on full air, or are they still air over hydraulic? It might be better still to look at the ten tonner as the donor, and stick a set of bigger rims on it to get over the gearing issues. Good point Glen, the 12t was wider and alot taller from memory as well. I'm pretty sure you're right and they were full air too, I'll check for definite tomorrow and report back. The two axle ratios I've found for 7.5 ton DAFs are either 4.1:1 or 4.56:1, with the lower of the two an option and the higher the "standard fit". Maybe Phil can run some proper comparisons through his work computer for us though, as that is what I've gleaned from the internet, so a proper confirmation would be handy. All the best, Glen. More than happy to check ratios as well, or anything else required. If at some point this is the way you go and you have a possible doner lined up then let me know the reg and I can check the specs of it for you (PM would be best so I get the notification and reply quick enough!).
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,714
Club RR Member Number: 34
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yeah, i can see phil becoming our new best friend here! having a link to the DAF mainframe is very handy.
id sort of agree with you glen about axle choices and donor vehicles and stuff. i want to be able to do proper speed, so don't want to back myslef into a corner with the gearing and prevent it. ultimately, the wheel/tyre choice is mostly about looks. i just want to fill the arch up with the bigger whee/tyre combo. looking at your pics, a 17.5 is just going to be too small. i need to decide which 19.5" size id be going for then calculate the diamter to compare with your measurements. comparitively speaking, I'm going to be lightly loaded compared to an average 10 ton truck that by its very nature is going to be working somewhere close to its weight limit most of the time. but this, which with a tuned engine and around half the weight, it should push a taller tyre/gear ratio without causing any issues.
regarding gearboxes, I'm fairly certain theres at least two different ones fitted to the 45/55 range. possibly two different gear ratio sets as optimusprime says dependent on the intended use of the original truck.
frankenhealey- the current brakes are best described as 'optimistic', even whan stopping it from its original 40mph-ish top speed. they're hydraulic drums all round, about 14" diamter, single circuit, unassisted. hence me wanting to swap over the full air assist setup front and rear like glen plans to do. keeping the whole system more or less complete should make it a lot easier.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,714
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Very interesting this. Have to ask, what are your plans for the flattie?? Selling? Sold? Keeping under bench? (only cos when one comes up i may buy it) yes, it will be for sale, to fund a donor vehicle for doing the rest. i need to use it to register another vehicle as well though- the rules have sort of changed recently and if youre registering a built-up vehicle, it needs to have a 'period correct' engine in it for them to give you an ID, so ill be fitting it into my '38 ford pickup, then taking it straight back out once registered to fit a later v8 (a Y-block). I'm going to get it running first though, as itll be worth more when i come to sell.. ive already had the fan and belts off and had it turning over with good compression. the water pumps are crusty as to be expected but the rest is unbelievably good. the next job once i get some spare time to aim at this is to test all the ignition components to figure out which are letting the side down, then some fresh oil and some fuel and see what happens. worse case is i think it might need a carb rebuild as well.
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Most of this is going over my head but my God, it's fascinating *n
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Top grammar tips! Bought = purchased. Brought = relocated Lose = misplace/opposite of win. Loose = your mum
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village
Part of things
Always carries a toolbox. Because Volkswagen.......
Posts: 567
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if you're going to be tight for intercooler space, consider using a charge cooler and place the radiator for it under the load bed.
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"The White Van is strong with this one...."
Chris "Chesney" Allen 1976-2005 RIP
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dw1603
Part of things
Posts: 591
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Tell you what Dez, your threads definitely offer value for money! Bookmarked.
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