cjhillman
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1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
Posts: 1,618
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Feb 11, 2021 23:04:48 GMT
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Just went out to move the Car onto the road to go to work tomorrow and it cranked slow (not unusual) then fired, ran for about 5 seconds then died. All lights died on the dash too. tried it again, turned the key, initially nothing then after a split second it fired but the same again . Did it a 3rd time but now turn the key and no dash lights... but i tested the battery and its 12.6v (battery leads tight to the battery too) I'll have to try and deal with this over the next few days but i'm guessing it not the battery  tried moving the key about thinking it could be the barrel but no joy. This is the 1.1 ohv on points , not sure if failed points would do this? I'm thinking alternator or starter motor but never had this problem. |
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,282
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Feb 11, 2021 23:37:38 GMT
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Check your main earth strap/lead. Damp weather could have cause a bit of corrosion. For a quick check, hook a jump cable from the negative to a decent earth point on the car. If it sounds like flat battery but the battery isn't flat, it's usually a bad earth, or at least it has been on the old heaps I've had that issue with.
If it turns out it's not that, check the points gap and the points themselves for signs of corrosion (again, damp weather) and if that's all good it could be a failing condensor. Unlikely to be alternator, though if it's a lazy starter motor, giving it a few good whacks might get it to unstick and behave.
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Sounds like a poor connection somewhere either a battery lead as above the ignition switch / connector, check the battery leads then try wiggling the connectors on the ignition switch to see if you can make it come and go.
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cjhillman
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1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
Posts: 1,618
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Feb 12, 2021 12:26:23 GMT
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Will hopefully be able to try some of this later. Annoying because I have the carb apart again on the Capri so can’t move that either . It’ll be dark when I get in tonight but I’m hoping I can try a couple of tests.
It’s being used for some filming next week. I had my mrs driving it yesterday to get to used to it in case I couldn’t take it ... the starter motor got a bit of a hammering as I remember lol . Hoping it’s not that but if it is I need to figure it out ASAP .
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cjhillman
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1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
Posts: 1,618
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Feb 12, 2021 21:12:00 GMT
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Ok so I didnt get in till late today. I videod what I did for reference and put it as an unlisted video on my channel.
Basically...
- Tried it again first of all and it was dead. Then it fired a little bit which made me think it was the (ignition barrel) but then died.
- After this I had a poor attempt at using a spare earth lead from the negative terminal to the suspension strut using mole grips. This was completely dead but the headlights worked. I don't doubt they worked without this earth anyway.
- removed the new earth, gave the starter a bit of a tap in case. Initially it didnt really fire but then if I kept the key turn it would fire. It also seemed that if I had the key turned and touched the accelerator it would fire but, I cant believe this car is that intelligent. IT did seem to work though.
I'm thinking I need to try a proper new decent earth on Sunday when I can see and feel my fingers. Take off the cowling to the ignition and check in there. After that I'm not sure.
I did find a website a quote talking about Alternator problems if the headlights work and I did notice problems with the battery light when flicking the lights on but I duno. I've had a faint battery light on occasionally so maybe it is that... or the earth.
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Last Edit: Feb 12, 2021 21:12:44 GMT by cjhillman
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That's either the ignition switch or the ignition relay (I'm trying to dredge my memory if the Escy/Onion had an ign relay and I'm thinking they did
Phil
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cjhillman
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1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
Posts: 1,618
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I’ll have a look in the manual when I get in this eve. Being the 1.1 on points I feel like it’s very basic but I guess there maybe is a relay in there?
I’m wondering how i will diagnose this though. My only worry is if it cuts out when I’m driving it’s going to just stop :/ never had a problem like this before. Usually they work or break down slowly.
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,282
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Feb 13, 2021 15:05:56 GMT
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I know that problem! Now I see it on the video that's exactly what the Princess was doing with the ignition switch failed. Turn and hold the key and it starts, but as soon as you let go it dies, except for when it doesn't. Everything else electrical works as it should normally, just the ignition at fault. If it's the switch, it'll look something like this.  It doesn't sound like you've got an earth problem, cranks nice and strong and sounds pretty healthy. The battery light coming on might hint at an alternator problem so you could have a couple of issues together, but if I were you I'd focus on the ignition switch or relay (as PhilA suggests) and go from there. Funnily enough, about the same time as the ignition switch failed on the Princess, the voltage regulator on the alternator conked out, I don't know if the two were related but if they are then that's probably something to be aware of on the Escort just in case. |
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cjhillman
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1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
Posts: 1,618
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Feb 13, 2021 15:14:10 GMT
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Ahh great info! Thanks guys! Will take the cowling off tomorrow and see what I’m dealing with. I’ll see if I can buy one just in case maybe as I need to use the car. Where did you buy yours for the princess ?
I’m used to cars breaking down gradually not like this haha. Yeah I think the alternator is going bad too unfortunately, maybe if it’s just the regulator I can swap that. It’s an original unit .
Annoyingly the Capri has an alternator problem too!
I’ll probably make a better earth for it tomorrow as it’s in a slightly rusty area (might just add an extra one to not disturb the rust). I’ll also see if anything weird is going on under the steering column.
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Feb 13, 2021 18:45:32 GMT
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The alternator charge light is fed by the igntion on one side and alternator regulator on the other, when the alternator is not charging it's wire is effectively grounded so the light comes on, if the alternator is producing less voltage than the battery it will also glow. If the ignition side is not connected and the alternator is turning it's possible for the light to glow as all the other devices on the ignition complete a circuit to ground. So shat I am saying inva long winded way is this too points towards a dodgy ignition switch or relay if it has one.
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,282
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Feb 13, 2021 19:07:47 GMT
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Ahh great info! Thanks guys! Will take the cowling off tomorrow and see what I’m dealing with. I’ll see if I can buy one just in case maybe as I need to use the car. Where did you buy yours for the princess ? eBay, as usual, though you'll probably have an easier time of finding the correct item than I did since your's a Ford item. A search for "Ford Escort Ignition Switch" should bring the correct one up, just be sure to check what connectors are on yours before ordering, not uncommon for the same basic part to have a different connector for different year models. For the voltage regulator, another forum user sent me a used alternator, from a Capri as it happens, and we swapped the pack over since Princess and Capri alternators are opposite handed cases. In fact, a couple of nanoseconds brings up this switch for a tenner, which might even be the correct one for your car: |
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cjhillman
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1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
Posts: 1,618
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Feb 13, 2021 21:46:04 GMT
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Cheers bud! I had a look through my old videos and took a screenshot of the switch/colours. looks like mine is a bit different.  I found one on ebay so will check mine tomorrow and probably buy that. Also will check out speed shack here in London too. Also, Could you start the car by pulling a screwdriver in just the slot of the ignition switch or would it need to be held in a position? Just thinking if I get in a bind with it before I can fix it Still havent checked for a relay in the diagrams, thanks for the Run down on the wiring kevins |
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Last Edit: Feb 13, 2021 21:47:31 GMT by cjhillman
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,282
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Feb 14, 2021 18:25:18 GMT
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Yes, you can use a screwdriver in the switch, unless the switch is too knackered for even that and then you'll have to learn how to hotwire it.
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cjhillman
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1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
Posts: 1,618
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I havent used the car much recently as this battery light has been on/the starting problem. I though I had cracked it with an extra earth strap but of course on the day I was booked for a filming session in London... it didnt start. Thankfully it did after a few key wiggles/holding the key so, i didnt turn it off and set off early. Drove 1 hour 30 there and back no problems. This paid for my Car insurance so i'm chuffed with that Oh it was Rap video btw... made me laugh a bit.  Today the dreaded MOT came round. I have been worried about this for a few weeks but happy to say she passed  There are a few minor advisories and one i'm booking it straight back in for (along with the electrical problems) the offside front wheel bearing. I've lost count on how many wheel bearings this car has had in 8 years... still, don't want the wheel falling off and at 40mph is sounded like a washing machine last week. The inner wing was a bit scabby so I worked a little magic and very pleased with the result. Its good for me anyway. I'll be having these replaced with new panels when i'm more flush. Also pleased to find out the Engine bay is still Rosso Red. The exterior is now Ford Vermillion Red ? or something. It used to be VW Rot but I don't know if these are vague paint shop codes as I cant find them haha.   Back to the Electrical stuff...last week I tightened up the fan belt as i noticed it was a bit slack and thought this could be my problem. I thought i'd solved it but on driving to work that eve, all was ok until I switched on the lights. A momentary judder with the battery light but then all ok. Get to work (15 min drive) and as i'm pulling onto the Car park I can smell burning from the steering column. I jumped out and undid the battery and did my shift  My girlfriend came to meet me after as I thought i'll come back and get it the next day when I don't need the lights. In the end I thought  this and drove it home. It smelt occasionally but I'd taken all the lower dash apart at work and couldnt see anything burnt before I drove away. I still cant days later. On driving away from the MOT today the Battery light was coming on and off a bit more than normal when pressing the brakes and using the indicator together. It even cut out once. They said they'll check it out for me when its in next week. The light kept coming on at the MOT but only on and off lightly. I've also noticed the interior light has stopped working but the bulb isnt blown... very odd. The wiring in this car looks pristine too. One thing ive always enjoyed as I HATE electrical problems. Here she is post MOT... Love this Car! Also thinking I need more 80s accessories for this car as I broke my fury dice removing them for the MOT. Any suggestions welcome. Id love some of those trapped fingers that people used to have.  |
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,282
Club RR Member Number: 146
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That sounds like you've got a weak earth somewhere. Putting the lights on is a fairly good drain on the system and if your usual earth is weak or damaged, it's going to look for another path to follow. I'd recommend putting a better earth - jump lead from battery to a good earth point is great as a temporary for testing the theory - on in addition to everything else and then gradually turning electrical systems on until you find it.
You've also mentioned the interior light is out, this could be coincidental with a bad bulb or fuse, or it could be indicative of a shorted door switch or other earth problem. Since the systems you're using are presumably doing what they should and you're not getting weird things like brakes trying to be indicators, it would suggest it's more of a main earth issue than anything else to me. It could even be that dodgy ignition switch if you haven't replaced it yet. Err on the side of caution until you find it though, by the time you see smoke it's usually too late.
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cjhillman
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1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
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I'll look into the earth again. I did add another earth strap but maybe It could have been done better. There wasnt many places to anchor it to without drilling holes in the wing etc.
I'll check out the bulb again separately. I only mention it as I turned it off ages ago for some reason and now with all this I put it back on to check if I was getting power from the battery and noticed it didnt work at all. Bulb looks fine but maybe its not.
I havent replaced the ignition switch as I struggled to find one the same. You've reminded me to call GS Escorts though as they are breaking a mk3. Fingers crossed the garage will find any problems too. I'm up for professionals looking at this one as I tend to drive a fair distance in it haha.
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,282
Club RR Member Number: 146
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I could be wrong, it has been known  it's just that the symptoms do line up pretty well with what I went through with the Princess a while ago and that turned out to mostly be down to a really poor main earth causing it to try and earth through the throttle cable, which then got hot, melted the plastic on the sheath, and stuck on which is less than ideal. There won't be many things it can be, your car is at least nice and basic. Try the jump lead earth point again for diagnosis, you can move it about to see if there's any difference that way. Good points of earth can be the door striker on the B post if it's plated rather than painted, bumper bolts, wheel nuts (front, not rear, it can earth through the handbrake cable, as I learned once), and head bolts. A good scrub to make the surface shiny usually helps, as can some tinfoil sometimes, though the latter is a bit bodgy. If the secondary main earth attempt doesn't work, look at the systems you're using that are causing the worst drain, like the headlights, and go through the connectors and earth points and give them all the best cleaning up you can to eliminate the corrosion, reconnect, and try again. Process of elimination really. It took me ages to track down all the electrical issues in the Princess, much of which was down to previous butchery. At least you've got a nice clean slate to work from with this one which is going to make your life so much easier! |
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cjhillman
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1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
Posts: 1,618
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I think you could be right. Its defintily the Lights on this causing the main problem. I know months ago when I flashed the lights at someone I could smell a faint burning but it never happend again. I took the stalk out, cleaned it up and put the dash back together. Maybe its something like the earth doing the ignition switch in? I'll get looking into it again.
Annoyingly I don't have a jump cable just a battery pack. Ill see if I can lend one as i'm saving every penny to spend on these two old Fords. I have a spare earth lead though so maybe I can do better with that.
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The earth to the inner wing by the battery looks a little dodgey, might pay you to move that to some sound metal. Remember you can't have too many earths, ie., from gearbox to body, engine to body, and battery to body.
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cjhillman
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1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
Posts: 1,618
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Right so today I wanted to move it and do the Earth on the inner wing. I was greeted by the Car turning over as slow as it could. I decided to try a new earth and drilled into the inner wing further away where the metal is good, ground back the paint and fitted my spare earth lead to it. Checked it for continuity and it said we had it.    Also cleaned up these Earths at the front... guessing for headlight/indicators.  I need to flash all this over with Paint tomorrow. After this I was confident but nothing!!! It was slow and then after some fiddling, I was greeted with the nothing at all on the dash  At this point with the key turned I just nudged the Ignition Switch wires for some reason and it started trying to kick up!! Bingo (although it didnt start because the battery was too low). Heres a little video up to this point. After this I put a jump pack on it which of course got her fired up although at the point I had no where to go so turned her off . I am wondering if I'm dealing with a bad battery now or, just a bad alternator that hasnt charged the battery along with a dodgy ignition siwtch. I cant go back spending money on both at the moment (although I know that battery is old). The other thing is... could it be a dodge wire on the dash side at the connection causing problems with the alternator which is causing battery problems too. I phoned GS Escorts as they have a mk3 like mine in for breaking. Told him the problems and he said I've had mk3's for years and its always the connection to the loom from the Ignition switch that melts and give this exact problem. I saw this on mine last week and it looked fine... still does although, if moving a wired made it jump into life its probably more likely to be this looking connection than the switch I guess. Bad pics but I was taking them blind. He mentioned hard wiring them if its melted so, might just try and check the pins are ok tomorrow. Not sure what the yellow connector is for yet.    |
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tried moving the key about thinking it could be the barrel but no joy.
There are a few minor advisories and one i'm booking it straight back in for (along with the electrical problems) the offside front wheel bearing. I've lost count on how many wheel bearings this car has had in 8 years... still, don't want the wheel falling off and at 40mph is sounded like a washing machine last week. 
My girlfriend came to meet me after as I thought i'll come back and get it the next day when I don't need the lights. In the end I thought 
this and drove it home. It smelt occasionally but I'd taken all the lower dash apart at work and couldnt see anything burnt before I drove away. I still cant days later.
it's just that the symptoms do line up pretty well with what I went through with the Princess a while ago and that turned out to mostly be down to a really poor main earth causing it to try and earth through the throttle cable, which then got hot, melted the plastic on the sheath, and stuck on which is less than ideal.
At this point with the key turned I just nudged the Ignition Switch wires for some reason and it started trying to kick up!! Bingo (although it didnt start because the battery was too low).