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Jun 19, 2015 17:52:30 GMT
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I've decided that I'm going to convert my Patrol to LPG so that I can use it more without worrying about the appalling fuel economy. I was hoping to find some people on RR that have done conversions themselves as I have a few questions.
I've done some research, and it looks fairly straight forward to do yourself as long as you're sensible, particularly the open-loop system I want to fit.
I'm putting a kit together myself as I couldn't find any complete kits on eBay etc for cheap, apart from worryingly cheap new kits from China. I've got an OMVL r90e converter and I intend to use a BLOS carb and an external tank beneath the vehicle to save on load space (this may change depending on availability of tanks).
I've managed to find an old copy of COP11 installation guidelines from an old Geocities mirror (not read it yet), but I can't find a more up-to-date version. A lot of information seems to be closely guarded to stop people installing kits themselves.
Will I run into problems assembling a kit from various sources? Places like Tinley Tech sell complete kits, but surely as long as I select components that are suitable and work properly they should all work together?
Certificates - there seems to be a lot of talk about insurance companies needing a certificate for the LPG system, but no actual official certification process. There's an industry body that runs a database but that seems to be there to serve and protect their own interests rather than act as an independent certification and inspection body. There's nothing in the MOT about LPG, for instance. Are LPG certificates necessary, and if so are they easy to get for a home-built system (providing it's done properly)?
Tanks - is there a difference between an external and internal LPG tank? Both seem to have the multivalves in similar places, and presumably the cover does the job of shielding these components in either situation?
Any other pointers would be great!
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squonk
Part of things
Posts: 858
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Jun 19, 2015 18:31:24 GMT
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I've fitted a few myself to Range Rovers and put right a number of so-called expert fitted certified systems.
Firstly, lets clear up the certification issue: There is no legal requirement to get a system certified. Certificates are issued by LPGA registered fitters and have no guarantee of quality at all. The LPGA is a subscription based organisation and any garage can apply for an LPGA certification status. I have been told that the LPGA doesn't even check the quality of installations before issuing LPGA membership status, merely they recieve the money and hey presto, you can issue certificates. Car insurance companies are ignorant of LPGA certification and many will refuse to insure a vehicle that is not LPGA certified. However, there are plenty of good installers that are LPGA members and do a very professional job. A lot of these will be happy to examine your installatiion and issue you with a certificate for a small fee (typically £50). The certification is a one off cost and future checks are done at the owners descretion with no legal obligation for re-certification. A good analogy to the LPGA is that its like joining a golf club. I've paid to join the club but it doesn't make me a golf pro!!
As far as fitting is concerned, under vehicle tanks are the same as in vehicle tanks but it is important that the tank is mounted in the correct orientation. If you but a torroidal tank that is supposed to be mounted upright you cannot mount it flat under the car - the multivalve will not work properly if you do. If you mount a cylinderical tank under the car, again the orientation needs to be correct (valve angle from horizontal - I can't remember the figure but 30° rings a bell) or again the multivalve won't work properly. The multivalve uses a float to shut the filling valve so if not at the right angle you could under fill or overfill the tank. Also remember that the tanks only fill to 80% of their volume so a 100 litre tank will only take 80 litres of gas. This is to allow for expansion with temperature change.
Make sure that the tank is mounted securuely with good sturdy straps and secured to a strong part of the floor. In the past I have welded plates to the floor of the car to make a secure mounting point.
The gas lines should be marked as LPG lines and securely fitted throughout the length of the vehicle. The pipes should be a single length with no joins between the tank and the reducer - not as easy to do as it sounds!!
The reducer needs to be connected into the cars cooling system, usually a 'T' piece into the heater supply and return pipes but take care to mount it is such a way that it won't suffer from air locks. Also ensure that you mount it in a position where it can be serviced - they should be drained of 'Heavy Ends' once a year or so and many also have a filter that should be replaced. Also make sure that the reducer is away from heat sources such as the exhaust manifold or put a heat shield between it and the manifold. Again, the feed from the reducer to the BLOS should be using the correct LPG pipe and marked as LPG, and be securely and safely run.
The majority of systems I have had to put right have been due to appaling electrical installation. Take time planning the routing of cables and make sure you use appropriate gauge cable. Do not use scotchloks or chocolate block, use crimp terminals or solder and heat shrink any joins. Ensure that the feed to the system is fused.
As far as the MoT is concerned, the car will be emission tested as is presented. If it is running on LPG when you get to the MoT station that is how it is tested and it is noted on the certificate that the fuel type is LPG. The system is subjected to the same checks as the petrol fuel system - securely mounted components, leaks, condition of components etc.
Take your time and do a neat job. A first time installation should take a couple of weekends to do.
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Last Edit: Jun 19, 2015 18:38:47 GMT by squonk
2004 Chevrolet Avalanche Z71 2005 Mercedes CLK320 Cabriolet 1996 Mercedes C180 Elegance Auto Saloon 1996 Rover 620Ti (Dead fuel pump) 1992 Toyota HiLux Surf 1987 Range Rover Vogue (Rusty) 1992 Range Rover Vogue SE (More Rusty) 2006 Chrysler Grand Voyager 2008 Corsa 1.4 Design
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Jun 19, 2015 18:33:09 GMT
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Yes done several, tinsley tech are very helpful and will examine and certify installations they have supplied. BLOS carb needs a gas analyser to set up as they wil run well even when poorly adjusted. Tanks are the same for internal or external use, if it needs certifying them the tank must be less than 10 years old and the certifier maywant evidence a new multi valve hasbeen fitted.
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ChasR
RR Helper
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Club RR Member Number: 170
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Jun 19, 2015 20:27:49 GMT
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Yup, done plenty. I do have a few recommendations though, although many may not agree here:
1) Buy new kit ; I tried to perserve with old kit on one or two cars. It cost me as much as buying a new kit in the end and I had the pleasure of almost always working on the damn thing due to the issues/bodges I had to contend with! Tanks are also technically dated, but this is overlooked by many including certification peeps. 2) Don't bodge anyway ; it will come back to bite you and hard. Many professionals IME are happy to skip this point and then put the issue on the car. From a previous thread I oversaw around 2-3 cars do 700k without major issues ;We were picky about the installation though. 3) Don't get massively hung up on the kit. Whilst avoiding some brands does help the installtion IMHO counts for alot. My cars on lowly 'Zavoli' systems have been spot on, the one car we had with a professionally installed and pricey LandiRenzo kit was nothing but trouble due to the wrong kit being installed for me (it was way overkill for what the engine was) and it being installed poorly as a result.
In essence. LPG is great but it can also be your worst nightmare.
Without sounding like I am boasting I and my dad were the only people bar another kit we installed for a colleague to make an LPG system work well within our previous workplace, even with the green Mundaneo of doom (with the poorly LPG system). 2 factory installed Vauxhall Insignas would see a head rebuild and an engine before the clocks turned over 100k including the owner swearing never to touch an LPG car car again. That is before I get to a BMW 520i was shocking on LPG (read 12MPG, I kid you not!), and with a plethora of issues including an odd whiff of gas (it IMHO required a sequential system but it was on a multipoint) and cutting out issues, possibly due to the the low level cut off being disabled as a result of a atrocious MPG; the latter was never mentioned to me until I drove it...
On the plus side (isn't this what RR is all about?) my dad's Mondeo is on 300k. It was converted at 140k, and had a head rebuild at 210k (potentially down to the LPG or the valves closing up...). That is a great car on it including: It costing 10p/mile to run Being roomy Having a few toys Not being a diesel and without diesel problems for the same mileage.
People will say the above are exceptional examples but I do wish for people to go into converting a car with their eyes wide open. I do recommend going to LPG but I do like to make people aware of the pitfalls, ones which owners (and sellers) are all too keen to gloss over.
P.S Tinley Tech are a great bunch of people to deal with. For the last Mondeo mentioned many of the parts were sourced from them. Bar the service items the rest of the kit is spot on almost 200k later. Yes you can search around but it can make things a royal pain.
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Last Edit: Jun 19, 2015 20:38:31 GMT by ChasR
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Jun 19, 2015 20:52:21 GMT
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Some great info here guys, thanks a lot!
I'm trying to buy new kit when it comes up, but it is a mix of brands.
I plan to put a toroidal tank underneath where the spare is, so it'll be mounted horizontally and I'll make sure that the tank isn't tilted, or the wrong way up!
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ChasR
RR Helper
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Jun 19, 2015 21:08:02 GMT
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What kind of fuelling system do you run Dean? Carb or injection? This is technically not allowed I guess but I have a few kits which are unused. I am happy to sell one to you but you would still need to sort a BLOS part, piping, and tank to complete it. The kit however would be quite cheap!
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Jun 19, 2015 21:55:04 GMT
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What kind of fuelling system do you run Dean? Carb or injection? This is technically not allowed I guess but I have a few kits which are unused. I am happy to sell one to you but you would still need to sort a BLOS part, piping, and tank to complete it. The kit however would be quite cheap! It's on a twin choke Weber carb. Drinks fuel for fun! Drop me a PM if you like, Chas.
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Jun 20, 2015 11:02:41 GMT
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My advice from running two LPG cars, is fit a big a tank as possible, remember your actual mpg will not improve, some say even get worse, though I have not noticed this. My one car has the filler mounted under the bumper on a bracket, which is better than the other one which has it mounted by the petrol filler, because you end up scratching the body with it on the body, also if it is mounted central under the bumper you can park either way round at pump, and the typically shorter LPG hose will still reach.
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ChasR
RR Helper
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Jun 20, 2015 11:16:02 GMT
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Some people hate mounting it in the bumper and claim it is not LPGa approved, yet feel that the holes never rust. After some time I have seen the holes rust despite 'treatment'.
Newer tank designs mean you can get a bigger tank for your size. Whilst having a big tank is nice, it can rob you of space. That BMW was one example. The already small boot became useless with the LPG conversion ; my Clio had a roomier boot!
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Jun 20, 2015 14:15:07 GMT
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The space underneath the vehicle should be enough to fit a decent sized toroidal tank I reckon. The spare wheel that normally resides there is a chunky 4x4 thing so there should be lots of room. I'd prefer to mount the filler somewhere discreet - the truck's just been painted so I'd rather not to have to cut holes in it. I've seen them hidden behind the fuel filler flap which I thought was neat - I'll have to see what space I have in there. I've seen a filler mounted on the towbar on a Range Rover, but I'd worry about it getting damaged in a bump or while using the towbar.
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ChasR
RR Helper
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Jun 20, 2015 14:53:47 GMT
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Are you at the show tomorrow Dean or will you be going to RRG as the next show?
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Jun 20, 2015 16:26:14 GMT
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Are you at the show tomorrow Dean or will you be going to RRG as the next show? Can't go to the Pod tomorrow as my friend is getting married. Will definitely be at RRG though! Probably the next big show I'll be attending.
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Jun 20, 2015 20:00:19 GMT
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There are a couple of different styles of torodial tank with the muktivalve inside the ring of the donut or mounted on the outside, think about access when choosing which to fit
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ChasR
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Jun 20, 2015 22:29:16 GMT
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I will stop commenting on this thread at some point, now maybe . The outer valved toroidal tanks tend to have more capacity for a given size. In the 1.8 Mondeo a spare wheel sized tank gives a minimum of 300 miles with it on occasion getting close to 400 miles, not bad for an subtle LPG conversion . The inner ringed ones never came close to this range. Pure motorway work whilst travelling in Europe may have seen me with 340 on one of them, but not half motorway and half village trips.
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Jun 20, 2015 22:39:21 GMT
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The more comments and info, the better!
I've not given a lot of thought to tank capacity, but I'd want a big one to cope with the abysmal fuel economy otherwise I'll be filling up all the time!
I think one with the multivalve on the outside would be needed, as I don't think the inside of the donut would be accessible when it's mounted.
I guess a wideband O2 sensor / gauge will be needed to get it all running perfectly. Not a cheap bit of kit but cheaper than new valve seats I suppose!
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The more comments and info, the better! I guess a wideband O2 sensor / gauge will be needed to get it all running perfectly. Not a cheap bit of kit but cheaper than new valve seats I suppose! Once its set up initially you shouldn't need much if any adjustment unless you mess with something. If you do fit a lambda sensor then you can run a closed loop system (look up AEB leonardo) which should keep the mixture about right throughout winter/ summer/ mucky airfilter etc I'm fitting a gauge to my trasnsit as I like to can't stop messing and want to keep an eye on what the mixture is doing when I start turboing. Does you engine run unleaded without needing an additive? - If so the valve seats should be OK with LPG anyway otherwise you need to fit a flashlube kit. Fit the biggest tank you possibly can, but beware of ground clearance issues if off roading, I think COP11 regs say it must be higher than the lowest point of the vehicle but would have to look it up to be sure. Also the version of the regs I saw called for really really thick strapping for cylinder tank mounts and all mounting points should be re-enforced with a metal plate of minimum 50mm x 50mm from memory
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Last Edit: Jun 21, 2015 21:04:38 GMT by dodgerover
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Jun 22, 2015 14:44:56 GMT
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i have a large torodial tank going spare, IIRC its about 90L. Came out of a Ranger Rover p38. Probably won't use it. Half full of gas too. I'm in the same parish as ChasR and will be up in Leyland on 4th-5th july if thats of use.
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Jun 22, 2015 15:16:52 GMT
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The more comments and info, the better! I guess a wideband O2 sensor / gauge will be needed to get it all running perfectly. Not a cheap bit of kit but cheaper than new valve seats I suppose! Once its set up initially you shouldn't need much if any adjustment unless you mess with something. If you do fit a lambda sensor then you can run a closed loop system (look up AEB leonardo) which should keep the mixture about right throughout winter/ summer/ mucky airfilter etc I'm fitting a gauge to my trasnsit as I like to can't stop messing and want to keep an eye on what the mixture is doing when I start turboing. Does you engine run unleaded without needing an additive? - If so the valve seats should be OK with LPG anyway otherwise you need to fit a flashlube kit. Fit the biggest tank you possibly can, but beware of ground clearance issues if off roading, I think COP11 regs say it must be higher than the lowest point of the vehicle but would have to look it up to be sure. Also the version of the regs I saw called for really really thick strapping for cylinder tank mounts and all mounting points should be re-enforced with a metal plate of minimum 50mm x 50mm from memory I'm not sure about the valve seats to be honest - my opinion on running unleaded in old cars has always been that it'll either be fine, or the valve clearances will start closing up over a long period of time, in which case the the head can come off and get hardened valve seats fitted. I read on the internet (which is always right, isn't it?!) that Japan was using unleaded from the 1970s so all their engines are built to take it. Not sure how true that is... Thanks for the tips on the tank mounting and the lambda - I will look into these options. I'm trying to keep the system as simple as possible as it's a simple old truck, but a closed loop system would be nice to have. i have a large torodial tank going spare, IIRC its about 90L. Came out of a Ranger Rover p38. Probably won't use it. Half full of gas too. I'm in the same parish as ChasR and will be up in Leyland on 4th-5th july if thats of use. Sounds like it could be what I'm after... I'll drop you a PM.
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Frankenhealey
Club Retro Rides Member
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Posts: 3,875
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Jun 22, 2015 15:29:39 GMT
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Oooh, oooh ooooh I've got a new and unused BLOS carb from the aborted Goddess LPG non-conversion.
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Tales of the Volcano Lair hereFrankenBug - Vulcan Power hereThe Frankenhealey here
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squonk
Part of things
Posts: 858
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Jun 22, 2015 17:28:32 GMT
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I think COP11 regs say it must be higher than the lowest point of the vehicle but would have to look it up to be sure. Also the version of the regs I saw called for really really thick strapping for cylinder tank mounts and all mounting points should be re-enforced with a metal plate of minimum 50mm x 50mm from memory Just a point of clarification, COP11 are not regulations, they are guidelines. The only applicable regulation for an LPG installation is Construction and Use. However, if you need to get it certified, following COP11 guidelines would be a good idea: www.geocities.ws/lpgmanuk/cop11.htmlwww.diy-lpg.co.uk/articles/files/legalities_of_conversions.html
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2004 Chevrolet Avalanche Z71 2005 Mercedes CLK320 Cabriolet 1996 Mercedes C180 Elegance Auto Saloon 1996 Rover 620Ti (Dead fuel pump) 1992 Toyota HiLux Surf 1987 Range Rover Vogue (Rusty) 1992 Range Rover Vogue SE (More Rusty) 2006 Chrysler Grand Voyager 2008 Corsa 1.4 Design
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