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Hate to be right on this - I feel for you. At this point on other forums I would say its time to drop in a small block Chevy If you got the crank re-ground would there be shells available then? (it might need a regrind anyway now if it's spun a bearing - journal may well be oval, you need to get it to an engineering shop for a proper check). Engineering shops might know of bearing sources too - it may well share bearings with other makes/models.
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,281
Club RR Member Number: 146
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The problem isn't the availability of R6 bearing shells, there's plenty of those, the problem is this engine. It has the skinny crankshaft in the larger engine, which I'm led to believe is the uncommon engine. If I had the earlier small capacity engine with the smaller crank I'd be okay and if I had the beefier crank I'd also be okay (and finding a bigger crankshaft is also difficult, I'm not entirely sure it swaps in without further modification to my engine) but I don't. So it's parts availability that's the issue. That and my lack of knowledge.
If I'm *really* lucky I'll drop the sump and find all the shells where they should be and it's just a slightly too tight component rather than anything dramatic, but I've not been that lucky with this one so far. The biggest problem I face is my lack of knowledge. The second biggest problem is I'm flat out with work and not-car responsibilities, so I'm not exactly firing on all cylinders myself when I do have the time spare to fettle with it.
My plan presently is that if it has spun a bearing shell I'll get everything loosely reassembled to keep the dirt out and have it transported to my home garage and worry about it later. If it's just a case of slackening a couple of over-tight bolts to free up the crankshaft (providing nothing is damaged, of course) then I'll do that and carry on.
Either way, it'll sort, it'll probably just take a lot longer than anyone wants it to. I can always turn my attentions to the Princess instead because I know *exactly* where I stand with that one, it needs time rather than money spending on it, I've got everything together now.
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If you live near I would teach you to do it but unfortunately you are too far away. I'll burst your balloon now I'm afraid - if it's tight then something is wrong. There is no 'slackening off' to get it loose again (unless you have massively over torqued an end cap in which case the shell will be damaged - so back to square one). I'd possibly think of looking for a replacement engine instead? probably cheap enough if you can find one.
If you want a chat about engines you can PM me for my number, happy to go through any questions you have and to advise on stuff.
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Brigsy
Part of things
Posts: 617
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Did you mix up the caps when refitting? I have seen issues where caps have been mixed up and not replaced in the original place causing the crank to nip up.
As blackpop said you will need the crank grinding and new shells minimum now though. I imagine the parts can be picked up fairly easily.
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Good call on the caps, got the T shirt on that one! If it is just a mixed up cap you can get away with just a new set of shells.
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,281
Club RR Member Number: 146
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I was very particular when dismantling and reassembling, everything that couldn't be put through a hole in a card with a number was numbered invididually and kept in order. I'd had so many warnings about not muddling parts I was really particular about that side of things. Other engines do fit but it seems like a massive waste of time and effort to go that route after all the work I've done if all I need to do is source and fit the correct bearing shells. I know something is very wrong, especially since it was turning freely and now isn't.
I won't get time to look at this again until the weekend. There's not much point at this junction provide any info or advice until I've had the sump off to have a look, I won't be able to do anything with the info provided.
Tall and short of it is that I've cocked something up and now I have to uncock it.
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It's probably the worst thing about owning obscure things - getting parts.
On a side note, you will have to probably get the engine out again (if it's the shells), so perhaps a swap to an engine more common/known runner, isn't the worst option. Quirky will only go so far and wears off when you're stuck on the side of a motorway.
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Thinking about this, it's was turning freely when it was out, everything was torqued up. Put it in car - crank is tight, could it be a mounting bolt a fraction too long and it's rubbing on the flywheel or something? When it bent the pushrods could it have done something that's making the crank tight?
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Hopefully it's just a simple problem to fix when you get into it. The bent pushrods and weird cam timing make me wonder if some bits inside were making contact when it was turning over on the starter? Keep the mojo up!
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,281
Club RR Member Number: 146
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READ THIS BEFORE ASKING QUESTIONS PLEASE!
To hopefully clarify for people with this engine, the current state of play is thus:
Four slightly bent pushrods (three you have to roll on a flat surface to know they're bent, it's not that obvious by eye, one it's obvious by eye) Crankshaft will turn with the starter Crankshaft won't turn by hand Crankshaft did turn by hand before the engine was put in the car No stuck valves Compression on all four cylinders Freely moving camshaft Good oil pressure, working oil pump An amount of fuel is being delivered Spark is available Starter motor is not jamming things Spark plugs are not interfering with anything All engine components were labelled and put back in the order they were removed. This was done meticulously and to avoid whatever problem might arise. A problem has still arose.
Something is causing the crankshaft to not turn freely. What that something is we will hopefully find out this weekend. Until then, any speculation is pointless because you know as much as I do now.
So, because I'm now fed up of answering variations on a theme, hopefully the above covers everything succinctly. You will have to wait until the WEEKEND until I can provide answers as that's the next tinker time I have available.
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Last Edit: Aug 9, 2016 19:57:14 GMT by vulgalour
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Rich
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,328
Club RR Member Number: 160
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I'm hoping on the tightness front it's something 'external' like the flywheel or something, a 'mate' of mine engine swapped his Skoda Felica from the N/A AEF to an Turbo AAZ one weekend, and left both the VW gearbox shim on and then fitted the Skoda gearbox adaptor and the engine wouldn't even turn if you towed it. I'm really hoping something like this is occurring, rather than something like the shells have slipped. I've enjoyed this thread, and you are so close! Don't loose faith now.
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Well you have a minimum of 3 cider plan evenings ahead, don't waste em
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,281
Club RR Member Number: 146
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mmm cider.
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jpsmit
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,274
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I had this with the Vauxhall - the bearing caps were no longer properly paired. These engines are line bored so they aren't interchangeable. It took the very sharp eyes of the son of a friend to see it - they should be marked somehow.
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Paul Y
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,951
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Last Edit: Aug 10, 2016 6:30:30 GMT by Paul Y
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,281
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Turns out I can't do anything with the Renault this weekend, the engine crane and stand are booked out for the next few weeks and I didn't find that out until yesterday so... bums.
I shall make hay, metaphorically speaking, as I have more than one automotive problem child to contend with. The Princess is now running after a fashion and I need to get that sill repaired. The biggest obstacles to doing the sill work has been a lack of personal motivation and time and the fact that pushing it in and out of the unit to weld in a safe area has just been impossible to do on my own.
This weekend I'm going to make a concerted effort to repair the passenger side sill. There's a fiddly bit of inner sill at the back to do, some arch to rebuild and then the simpler task of fitting a full-length outer sill to the car. I could realistically do that over the weekend which would get through the worst of the remaining bodywork and would make the car look much better. I could also rebuild the headlights and get the face back on the car for a bit of a mojo boost so she doesn't look so sad and get that wing mirror put back on... lots of little jobs like that to tackle really. There's an MoT place right next door to the unit I can book her in at when the time comes and once passed, I can drive her home and then I *will* be happy.
Most importantly, I need something that isn't that sodding Renault to turn my attention to for a bit. If anything, not being able to work on the Renault this weekend is a relief, I run the very serious risk of falling out of love with it which is quite dangerous at this stage of a project. See eBay "spares or repairs" and "easy project" listings for more information on that.
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Well, it IS French.. It wouldn't be in character if it all went according to plan. Please don't follow their lead and surrender. Also, I had a quick look for bearings in our systems here, but couldn't find anything with your 1181 motor? What year/series etc is it from?
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Last Edit: Aug 12, 2016 3:30:11 GMT by varelse
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79cord
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,617
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Aug 12, 2016 11:22:28 GMT
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R6 very rare here, R5 even rarer, R4 didn't sell here long enough to get engines that big, so Renault R10? At least they were assembled in Victoria & sold in 'reasonable' numbers.
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,281
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Aug 14, 2016 18:23:10 GMT
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RoverHaving a little well earned rest while I give my brother's Applause some exercise. I do not mind this at all, the Applause is a bit of a giggle. RenaultOn hold until I have access to engine moving tools in a couple of weeks. PrincessCould it be? Is this an actual update of things that have happened with this car? Why yes, yes it is! This is posted on several forums, so I may repeat myself a little while I fill in the gaps for those forums I haven't updated. The running problem was narrowed down to three causes, the first being the brand new condenser on it's way out (after about a mile of use), the second was that the ignition timing was way off and the third was that the plugs were in the wrong order. Forums are super for flushing out helpful people and it was one such that came along and diagnosed this and sorted it and got the car running in about half a minute if that. So big thanks yet again to Scaryoldcortina. Reason for the timing and plugs being muddled was me getting into that terrible spot where you know there's a problem and you try and fix it only to find whatever you do makes it worse and then you can't remember how it all was to start with. In turn, that meant I could finally move the Princess under its own power which is vital for the last bit of welding. The clutch is now VERY noisy and doesn't work very well, it's been less than great for the past four years and I do have a new clutch kit to go on so I'm hardly surprised it's finally given up. The duff condenser makes running rough but works well enough to get the car in and out of the unit until the replacement component arrives. The brakes work. I pumped up all the tyres and wobbled into the unit this afternoon so I could actually do some work on the old boat. It was actually fun, even though nothing is really as it should be, to trundle around in this car again. After using the Rover for the past year the Princess feels enormous, and very slow, and the steering feels quite heavy. Still, we got in and Mike helped me remove the doors for the job ahead. I spent most of today just cleaning back the mess that was the old sill. It had been sort-of-welded along the bottom edge and tacked once every 3" or so (except for the 6" either side of the B pillar where there was NO welding at all) on the top edge and then SMOTHERED in filler. There was so much filler it had oozed between the old line of the original sill and the replacement. It took a very long time to get it all back to good metal. Also removed a big chunk of filler from the sill-to-arch join which was hiding, unsurprisingly enough, some holes and thin metal. This area was up for replacement anyway and will be part of the next stage of repair. The other area is the sill end. I'd already repaired what I could inside the car but I now need to let in some smaller pieces for the sill rail, the sill closing panel and the inner arch. I also need to rebuild the outer arch where it had rotted away. None of this is particularly complicated, it's all just fiddly little patches. I'll be making it structurally good rather than pretty because most of this won't be seen when the new sill goes on. Finally, an overview of what I achieved. The old sill had gone very thin and was much more damaged than the driver's side (which I'll need to replace in the future, but can stay put for now since I've already repaired it). Happily, the inner sill with the exception of the above is absolutely solid and cleaned up very nicely, I was actually quite surprised there wasn't any creeping rot hiding in here. I am quite busy with work but my schedule is more manageable this week so I'm hoping to get a bit of time in every day to do a little bit of repair work this side until the weekend when I hope to fit the full outer sill and get it painted. I'll also repair the door bottoms and sort out the blistering paint - which started showing itself as micro-blisters 4 years ago and so far has always been down to excessive use of filler - before they're refitted to the car. I'm not worried about perfect paint and finish, I just want to eliminate as much rust and rot as I can while I have things in bits.
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,281
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Aug 15, 2016 17:08:00 GMT
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Got a tiny bit of free time to do some more on the Princess. Started by making the repair sections for the back end of the sill which is mostly just the closing panel and a small section of the lower rail. Went quite smoothly and while the welding isn't the most attractive it is strong enough to hold the patches firmly to the car. The welder doesn't seem happy and I don't know why. Sometimes it welds lovely and then you'll go to do the next bit and it just doesn't want to know, as if it's on a whole different bunch of settings. Pretty frustrating really so it slows me down a lot. With that bit sorted I could move on to fitting the outer sill. Except I'd left the drill and the drill bits at home and since I want to spot weld the bottom of the new outer sill on for the whole length in addition to the other welding to attach it that put the brakes on that side of things. Not wanting to waste my time I instead took the angle grinder to the back panel for the inner light bucket on the passenger side. I ordered a new pair of lights last night that will fit so I thought it best to get these in ahead of them arriving. I've not welded the bucket in yet, just made the hole and pushed it into place to check it all looks as I want it to, and it does. Still unsure about the number plate solution. I've got some ideas but none that real grab me as the ideal solution yet.
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