|
|
|
It sounds like lack of fuel which means the injection pump or feed to it. What type of lift pump (if any) has it got?
If it is on its way out it would cause these symptoms, one way to solve all the problems with minor leaks is to fit a low pressure electronic one at the tank end. (One of the cube ones meant for carbs works fine)
|
|
|
|
|
vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,257
Club RR Member Number: 146
|
|
|
It has a Bosch pump, so that'll be the VE model, I expect. As I understand it there's just the mechanical pump at the engine rather than any additional one in the tank, though I could be wrong on that.
|
|
|
|
glenanderson
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,316
Club RR Member Number: 64
|
|
|
If you have a mechanical pump, then the diaphragm could be failing, which would cause air ingress issues, or fuel leaking into the sump.
Symptoms like you described can be attributed to fuel pump failure, and this is often masked on vehicles fitted with Bosch VE pumps because, once primed, they can usually manage to supply themselves with fuel. Would be worth swapping the lift pump for a new one as th the next step, IMHO.
|
|
My worst worry about dying is my wife selling my stuff for what I told her it cost...
|
|
vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,257
Club RR Member Number: 146
|
|
|
That does make sense. I suspect the other air leak/s were masking this issue so until I'd fixed those I couldn't find this problem. Rebuild kits are available so I'm wondering if it might be worth a go rebuilding the pump I've got rather than trying to buy a replacement. A rebuild kit is around £30-40 for a Bosche one, while I imagine a pump is going to be considerably more than that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Last Edit: Apr 2, 2020 12:33:42 GMT by kevins
|
|
Rich
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,318
Club RR Member Number: 160
|
|
|
I think that’s for a petrol. I’m not sure the diesel uses a lift pump, I don’t recall there being one on my 1.7TD.
|
|
|
|
vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,257
Club RR Member Number: 146
|
|
|
Had another look at this today to see if I could find anything amiss. The car isn't keen on starting, or restarting, and the injection pump is now making a wubbawubba sort of a noise so I guess that means something in the pump is on its way out. The wubbawubba gets quieter the longer the car is running, but it required two attempts to start with or without priming, as though the pump wasn't pulling fuel through quickly enough. The wubbawubba noise is similar to the one that a mechanical fuel pump diaphragm makes, that sort of wobble board meets air sucked through a straw type of noise. I couldn't capture it on my phone because the engine drowns out the rest of the noise.
No diesel leaking out anywhere and while I'd like to say there was no air getting in, since I don't have see-through fuel hoses I can't say that for certain. Once running the car is fine and try as I might I can't get it to repeat the stalling issue.
So I guess at a minimum an injection pump rebuild is on the cards to try and resolve this issue. My concern is that the badly filtered used veg oil remains I found in the bottom of the fuel filter housing has perhaps but excessive strain on the pump and simply worn it out, which would mean replacement is the only option. I don't know though, I'm learning as I go here on this one and not entirely sure what the wisest course of action is from here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I suspect the noise you are hearing in the injection pump is air, I'd be surprised if the issues is the injection pump, the VP is a pretty robust design but like all injection pumps won't work if air gets into it.
I'd look at the fuel supply to it, is there a mechanical lift pump, or even an electric one in the tank ?
|
|
|
|
vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,257
Club RR Member Number: 146
|
|
|
Had a natter offline and decided to get some injector cleaner because with there being evidence of chipfat in the system, I could have bunged up injectors. I have bled the fuel system and got no air bubbles coming out, and I bled it again just to be sure and only got diesel out so if there is air in there I have no idea how to get it out. I don't know what, if any, pump is fitted other than the injector pump.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Take a look at this link, its a pretty good explanation of how the injection works, as you will see the only thing which could really cause your symptoms is if the control spring / lever system is sticking somehow or there is air in the fuel so a mixture of fuel and air is being metered. citroen.tramontana.co.hu/en/engines/diesel-enginesThe only other thing I can think of is something in the tank blocking the pick up.
|
|
|
|
vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,257
Club RR Member Number: 146
|
|
|
I've been catching up on the various posts and info, talking to people with some experience of these issues and ones like them and they concur with your thoughts too. There's about a dozen things it can be causing the issue and now I have a shortlist to work through. We're going to assume the bits I've done are okay and that the pump is actually probably okay for now. First attempt will be injector cleaner, then it'll probably be tank inspection, then perhaps fuel pre-heater bypass, these seem to be the most commonly mentioned causes. Then I'll move on to more involved things, like bits of the injector pump and testing the injectors themselves. We'll get there. --- Earlier today I was hunting out some stuff in the garage and found some H4 yellow headlight caps that I'd bought for my old Renault 6. I had thought I'd moved these caps on, they didn't fit the headlight bulbs in the Renault, and I didn't have another car to fit them to, turns out I hoarded them instead. They literally just clip on to a H4 bulb and that's it. cThey have the added advantage of making it impossible to touch the bulb glass once fitted. I had to wait until I'd finished work before I could see the result and while my camera overcompensates with blue, making the photos it takes look like an early Star Trek set, I've got photo editing software and I'm not afraid to correct the balance. In person, the yellow it puts out looks just like it should, not a dirty old-bulb sort of colour, nor a harsh brilliant yellow, just this very mellow glow reminiscent of news footage of France in the 80s. Time will tell if they're actually horrible to drive with at night and whether or not they actually keep their yellow colour.
|
|
|
|
vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,257
Club RR Member Number: 146
|
|
|
BX needed to be moved today since I was doing a spot of garden maintenance. It started up with a bit of reluctance and after I'd parked it elsewhere I went back and found this big puddle of diesel under it. That's a lot of diesel. Before opening the bonnet I had a look underneath to see if I could find it and all I could really see was a lot of diesel had leaked from somewhere higher up in line with the injector pump. Hmm... let's pop the bonnet and see what's what. Ran over the various fuel connection points and saw that the top of the injector pump was greasy with diesel. With the engine not running it wasn't readily apparent where it was coming from aside from a slight dampness on the outlet/return on top of the pump. I had inspected these hoses recently and had seen nothing untoward. Indeed yesterday they weren't causing any diesle to come out and the pump didn't have a greasy sheen of diesel on it like it does here. Better start it up and see what's what. Car was a bit reluctant to start up. These shots were taken after I'd removed the hose clamp for the bigger non-braided hose when I'd had chance to clean my hands so I could use the camera. With the car running it soon became very clear where the leak was. A bit of throttle and it was REALLY clear. That's a surprise, to be quite honest. Easily rectified at least... but wait, what's that I see in the camera that I didn't see in person? *tickatickaticka* Enhance. *tickatickaticka* Enhance. You have got to be kidding me! Another failed hose, and another fairly new one at that. I bet that's sucking air in and cocking things up isn't it? I haven't got enough hose in stock to replace this with and the hose itself isn't long enough for me to trim the end off so I'll have to order a new length and replace the whole thing. These cracks are not visible in person, I only saw them because of the camera showing them up. The digital camera, the tool we all forget we've got when it comes to spanner time. Oh well, I trimmed the leaking portion off the braided hose and refitted it. I will be buying enough hose to replace all the leak-off pipes as a precaution when I buy the other hose to replace that big cracked one. Maybe that will fix the issue. When the braided hose was removed it was almost impossible to see the crack that was causing the leak, it's no wonder I couldn't find it until it properly failed. Hooked it all back up and the car, unsurprisingly, started much more willingly than before and didn't leak any more diesel out. Gave it some throttle and it was fine, no leaking out of diesel. However, on pulling back onto the drive it did that trick of the idle dropping until it stalled. It did fire up again quite willingly so it's slightly improved which ties in with the slight improvement I made by trimming down that bad hose so perhaps when I replace all the other fuel hoses it will be okay and this problem will go away. I also learned quite by accident how the driver's side mudflap got broken at some point in the past and why you shouldn't park too close to the curb.
|
|
|
|
Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
|
|
|
Where are you buying your fuel hose from? I’ll make sure to avoid it...
|
|
|
|
vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,257
Club RR Member Number: 146
|
|
|
The hoses I've bought haven't leaked yet, but these latest failed hoses were bought by previous owners. The braided hose was direct from Mercedes Benz while the bigger hose has Citroen stamps on it. I guess avoid main dealer hoses? I've found a couple of eBay sellers good for quality products, this time around I'm using www.ebay.co.uk/usr/js-tradinguk and www.ebay.co.uk/usr/shirley9293 and in the past I've used www.ebay.co.uk/usr/planet_silicone for various ancillaries and found the quality of their stuff good. I try to avoid non-UK sellers and try to avoid the absolute cheapest option, purely based on previous experience of this being a false economy. That said, sometimes the above linked sellers are the cheapest and haven't let me down yet.
|
|
Last Edit: Apr 5, 2020 22:49:27 GMT by vulgalour
|
|
Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
|
|
|
The hoses I've bought haven't leaked yet, but these latest failed hoses were bought by previous owners. The braided hose was direct from Mercedes Benz while the bigger hose has Citroen stamps on it. I guess avoid main dealer hoses? Ah - I misread it then thinking it was recent hose in that you’d replaced it rather than it just isn’t original. Bit of a bad show on the OE hose though. If you’ve found traces of veg oil in there (you mentioned it regarding the new filter housing), it begs the question what have they been putting in the tank???
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Just had similar problems with my spill / leak off pipes They didn’t cause me any problems with starting though on the Astravan, my understanding is that unless injecting fuel, there is a needle valve that is closed so no air can return to the pump side. It just weeped diesel onto engine etc and then floor. So think the air in the system must be coming from the other hose. Your leak looked a bit worse than mine though
|
|
|
|
Ross
Part of things
Posts: 83
|
|
|
Dude your thread is pretty long so I might have missed this... but have you taken a look at the fuel pre heat exchanger? It sort of sits above the front crossmember. My 1990 17 TGD was plagued with abysmal stalling issues, I had gone as far as replacing the fuel filter housing too, but in the end we bypassed that pre heater and ‘Hey Presto!’ instantly I have the easiest starting diesel car I have ever owned... And you don’t need it with modern grade diesel anyway.
|
|
Last Edit: Apr 6, 2020 1:25:58 GMT by Ross
Mini eh? Rolls Royce Merlin bolts straight in them you know.
|
|
melle
South West
It'll come out in the wash.
Posts: 2,006
|
|
|
I've been using those yellow H4 caps for more than a decade now; they definitely stay nice and yellow and in my experience they're fine at night.
|
|
www.saabv4.com'70 Saab 96 V4 "The Devil's Own V4" '77 Saab 95 V4 van conversion project '88 Saab 900i 8V
|
|
|
|
|
If you want proper fuel hoses by Cochline that are genuine and won't fail then my friend Guy Davenport on Facebook will supply them for you. Think his company is A1 Hydraulics but search him on facebook and he will do you right. Service is excellent from him as well.
|
|
|
|
vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,257
Club RR Member Number: 146
|
|
|
johnthesparky I wouldn't expect the leak off pipes to cause air to get in either, in my limited understanding that didn't seem likely. It's been suggested the bigger return hose is possibly doing some weird backwards-pressure feed thing where the fuel is going back to the tank like it should, but the air is getting stuck in the pump which is also making that wubbawubba noise (which has almost completely gone since trimming the leaking hose recently). Ross it is a bit of a monster this thread, it's been running for a good few years now. Pre-heater is on my checklist of items I'm gradually going through as it's such a well-known issue, much like the fuel filter housing top that I replaced recently. It's only recently started stalling so something somewhere is breaking down and letting air in, it's just a case of finding out what, so every time I find a leak, I replace what's leaking. blackpopracing Not a Facebook user. The name's familiar though, I wonder if I've bought something from him before in the past?
|
|
|
|