vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,286
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Nov 18, 2014 17:00:57 GMT
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PhilA: good thought, I can't remember if there's a tube or just a hole for the fuel pocket so I'll check, it's the correct side and everything so it could be a good call. Xenocide: cheers  We're getting there with the place, like the equipment we've got it's nothing too fancy or expensive but it does the job well.
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Last Edit: Nov 18, 2014 17:01:17 GMT by vulgalour
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MK2VR6
Posted a lot
Mk2 Golf GTi 90 Spec
Posts: 3,329
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Nov 18, 2014 18:00:32 GMT
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Leak in the back: the only way that got there is from a higher point. I'd be checking thoroughly around the tailgate and rear cluster area. Again.
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,286
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Nov 18, 2014 20:48:32 GMT
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I've already checked lights and tailgate, the boot carpet and boot itself is bone dry so I can't see how it would be getting in from there. I'm going to pull the entire rear trims apart to investigate, gives me a chance to clean some bits I can see but not get to with them in the car too. Might even get those rear seat base covers repaired too.
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,286
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Nov 19, 2014 20:11:11 GMT
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It continues. I can understand why so much is charged for a Xantia clutch replacement now and I begin to wonder if it's not enough. A lot of time feels wasted by the amount of car you have to remove to get to the gearbox including a good bit of the suspension. I think Citroen fitted the car to the gearbox, not the other way around, it seems to be at the very core of the engine bay. Because I've been ill and there's customer's cars taking priority, work on the Xantia is not a full-time affair. Less than ideal, but that's how it is. After 3.5 hours the car is ready to have the gearbox dropped after which the clutch change and rebuild can happen. I strongly suspect refitting will be much quicker than removal. With the LHM reservoir, pump thingy, battery, battery tray, front accumulator, air box, driveshafts and myriad smaller items removed you can just about get at the gearbox. The vast majority of the time involved is figuring out how and where things are fastened down and what order to best remove them, the HBoL isn't as useful as one might expect in this regard.   You reach a point where you have to call it a day with this sort of thing, so we brought the plastic stuff home and got on with degreasing it and cleaning out the LHM stuff. Even though the LHM was done less than a year ago the bottom of the reservoir had a lot of very black deposits and the filters were equally mucked up which I expect contributes massively to the niggles I've had with the suspension and brakes.  There's still more degreasing to do on the air box, which is quite crusty down one side, but everything has cleaned up very well and is now drying out so we don't get any water contamination in the LHM on reassembly. It's likely I'll clean out the LHM a couple of times in quicker succession than is usual to get it all back into excellent condition again. Finally, we discovered the positive terminal cover hiding underneath the reservoir, not sure how it got there and didn't know it was missing but it's nice to have it and be able to refit that when the job is done.  |
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Frankenhealey
Club Retro Rides Member
And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death
Posts: 3,887
Club RR Member Number: 15
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Nov 19, 2014 20:51:03 GMT
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With the LHM reservoir, pump thingy, battery, battery tray, front accumulator, air box, driveshafts and myriad smaller items removed you can just about get at the gearbox. The vast majority of the time involved is figuring out how and where things are fastened down and what order to best remove them, the HBoL isn't as useful as one might expect in this regard. Bl00dy h3ll, that makes a turbine look simple. |
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Tales of the Volcano Lair hereFrankenBug - Vulcan Power hereThe Frankenhealey here |
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,286
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Nov 19, 2014 21:26:37 GMT
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Comparing it to every other car I've worked on, it's a bit of a nightmare. The engine and 'box are nice and neat, the LHM pipework is even tidily routed but the vast quantity of wiring and turbo pipework seems excessive and very cluttered. There must be a better way of doing it and maybe one day I'll look into tidying it all up to make access for maintenance and cleaning easier, it seems very messy and not at all appealing to look at.
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Nov 19, 2014 21:45:06 GMT
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I think they took the inspiration for the engine bay from lunch:  You've taken all that out and I still can't see anything that looks like propulsion technology. --Phil |
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,286
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Nov 20, 2014 19:02:38 GMT
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As Mike and I have been working at the Xantia today I've been cleaning bits we remove. Some parts have cleaned up exceptionally well, like the LHM reservoir. Here's a before from shortly after the car was bought.  Here's an after. Cillit Bang and plenty of hot water is superb for this sort of job and since it's quite a visible component in the engine bay it was really important to have it looking its best.  The only part so far to need any attention is the battery tray, it's had a preliminary clean and scrub and once dry we'll tackle the surface rust before dousing it in fresh black paint. New powdercoat would obviously be really nice, maybe that will happen in the future, I'd have it done white. In fact, I'd have a lot of components in the engine bay done white ideally, but that's likely a stupid idea with a dirty diesel.  Today's time spent on the Xantia brings us up to 6.5 hours since starting the job. The time I've spent cleaning components is disregarded, that's not vital to the job and is more an opportunity thing to rid the engine bay of seventeen years of grime. We did finally manage to liberate the gearbox from the car, even though it tried to take out two electrical conduits and three hydraulic pipes on its way.  The clutch friction plate was down to the rivets in places (no picture, I'll get one next time) and while it still had some life it wouldn't be long before it gave up. The inside of the bellhousing was full of black powdery clutch dust and clumps so it's clear that about as much use as possible was got from it. We gave the gearbox a douse in degreaser and jetwashed (being sure to protect bits that shouldn't get water contaminated) again to make reassembly less grim.  The hole for the gearbox does seem to be smaller than the gearbox itself, but I still suspect refitting is going to be easier than removal as it'll be less likely that will run the risk of pulling wires and pipes out. Going to be a horrible task, all the same.  Then I found out the clutch I'd bought was a push type, not a pull type. I was a little bit cross about this mistake on my part, the research I'd done had led me to believe there was only one type of clutch fitted to my age car and engine and that any listed for that use would be correct. I am now trying to get a refund for the clutch I've bought and we're hoping to obtain a correct clutch tomorrow. What a nuisance. |
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Last Edit: Nov 20, 2014 19:13:29 GMT by vulgalour
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Nov 20, 2014 23:45:24 GMT
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That flywheel is showing some hot spots. Should probably get it machined, or at least cleaned up, otherwise your new clutch could slip from the start.
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,286
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Nov 21, 2014 10:09:37 GMT
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I suspect the flash is making the flywheel look worse than it is though it does have some mild discolouration over the surface rather than being a uniform shiny silver. I'm assuming the discolouration is what you mean by hot spot, this is the first clutch I've helped change so I'm learning as I go along.
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Nov 21, 2014 13:25:36 GMT
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Doesn't look too bad to me - its worth thoroughly degreasing the flywheel though and a good sand with some coarse wet n dry or emery paper over the friction surface wont hurt either. Make sure to grease the centre spigot with a little high temp grease before refitting. Told you it was a curse word job |
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,286
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Nov 21, 2014 16:29:03 GMT
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Understatement of the year, right there  Stroke of luck today, had a choice of a Valeo or a not-Valeo clutch and since funds can only stretch so far we went for the not-Valeo. Turns out that it's actually a Valeo clutch in a different box, weighs a confidence inspiringly large amount and is exactly the same as what's been removed. Even better, I can send the incorrect clutch back to the supplier and get a refund. Tomorrow, the new clutch is fitted and the Xantia comes off the ramps. Or else. |
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,286
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Fifteen hours. This job is absolutely hateful, but it is also the worst job you can do on a Xantia. The second worst is welding and I've managed that one so it can only get easier from here, right? We did, with the help of our engine brace thingy, get everything aligned. It was still an  of a job so it was timely when my brother turned up and said "you just do this jiggle" which made the gearbox align with the engine and make it pretty smooth sailing. The clutch fork can be a nuisance but it went on first time and the actual changing of the clutch took about ten minutes.  It was actually surprising how easy the actual clutch change was considering how long it had taken us to get to this point. Six and a half hours to get to replacing the clutch and reseating the gearbox felt like it had taken a bit longer than it ought, but not daunting enough to make us worry about buttoning the rest up.  A hunt around the engine with all the bits off discovered a few possible oil leaks. The sump gasket seems to have been weeping for quite a long time. There's another leak up the back of the engine, one on the rocker cover gasket and another across the top on one of the pipes, but these are less clear so the plan is to get the engine steam cleaned or similar just so we can see where the oil is actually emerging to effectively be able to cure/lessen it.     To refit the gearbox the stud had to come out of the mount bracket. We needed to get it a bit warm to make this happen.  With everything connected, checked, the gearbox refilled with about 2ltrs of fresh correct oil and another 2ltrs of LHM in the reservoir we were ready to fire things up. Car started without complaint, no horrible smells or noises, LHM level going down nicely and just as we were about to tip another litre into the reservoir we got a terrific green waterfall out the bottom of the front bumper. Cat litter to the rescue and engine quickly turned off.  The front accumulator had been an absolute nightmare to refit anyway, the various brackets and fixings put up a fight for above an hour which was just stupid. The smaller pipe wouldn't line up and the larger one was now fountaining LHM out of the union. We suspect there's a missing seal for the larger - power steering? - pipe which means it can't hold the LHM in once any sort of pressure happens. Utterly disheartened by it. The MoT is due on Tuesday and I'm not at all confident the car will be sorted in time now. We're talking to Citromatic on Monday to see what exactly is wrong. Worse case scenario is that we need a new pipe and a new accumulator and since I know that's the only sphere that hasn't yet been replaced it wouldn't be the worst thing to have to fit a new one. Still, at least my brother remembered to bring up the clear side repeaters he got for me, which really tidy up the wings a lot.  Xantia is now in the bad books, it's been hogging space at the unit for 6 days now, which is four days too many. |
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Rich
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,339 
Club RR Member Number: 160
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The pipe seals look like this.  I'm amazed you only have one leak after taking it apart, disturbed seals should always be replaced on these and all hardlines will have them. Don't try to stop leaks by over tightening either. The seals are available from Citroen still but I think GSF can get them. |
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,286
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Nov 23, 2014 11:50:40 GMT
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If I'd known about the seals I would have replaced them. There may be a weep on another union, but so much LHM was spurted out of the accumulator it's difficult to tell, it went EVERYWHERE.
Seals will get ordered - I've had this suggested elsewhere for me to think it's the problem - and everything buttoned up. An extra couple of litres of LHM and then we should be good to go. I expect Citromatic around the corner will have the seals in stock, they seem to have everything else in stock at sensible prices.
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Nov 23, 2014 13:48:47 GMT
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getting knee deep in it now boss!!
cant offer anything other than to say make sure that oil leak isnt the crank seal behind the flywheel for obvious "oh ffs" in a few months reasons
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Last Edit: Nov 23, 2014 13:49:01 GMT by darrenh
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,286
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Nov 23, 2014 14:14:18 GMT
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Happily, the crank seal isn't presently leaking and will hopefully remain that way. The globby oil is all limited to the sump seal sitting below it rather than above so we're comfortable that it doesn't need pulling apart again for a while. But hey, this is a Citroen so anything is possible.
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Brigsy
Part of things
Posts: 617
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Nov 23, 2014 15:02:35 GMT
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Ahh the old pull clutch. I remember popping the box back on (on my own too) and not hooking the arm onto the release bearing. Thankfully i checked to see if it worked before refitting any more parts Got a sphere removal tool here, copy of the genuine item but works very good if your interested? |
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,286
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Nov 24, 2014 19:45:56 GMT
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Don't need the sphere removal tool at the moment, turns out the accumulator is still good and with the other spheres having been replaced very recently I doubt I'll need to worry about that side of things for a while. I will give you a shout if I do happen to be in need of one, always pays to keep options like that open --- I think I found the missing seal, it's gone all crumbly so it's probably just as well it's fallen out and is getting replaced tomorrow. Guessing that because it's gone all crumbly and split it dropped off the pipe unnoticed when we dismantled everything so in a way it's done me a favour as it'll definitely get replaced this way.  Citromatic identified the seal as belonging to the main pressure feed and warned that once we've replaced the seal others might go, so it may be a routine of pulling pipes and replacing fiddly little O-rings to get the system LHM-tight before the MoT. We're getting new seals delivered tomorrow but I've got to leave the job to Mike as I've got to crack on with artwork as I'm already behind on that front thanks to this stupid job. MoT is due tomorrow, fat chance of me getting a working car in for it by then. Thankfully, our local trusted MoT garage shares the same building so we needn't even go on the public highway to get the Xantia to them. |
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,286
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Nov 25, 2014 18:02:52 GMT
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Hooray, Mike has successfully bled the LHM system through after replacing the damaged seal, the car goes up and down as it ought. Lots of black stuff came out of the rear calipers and lots of air came out of the front, the pedal is now apparently very hard compared to how it was, I need to see how that feels to assess it for myself, but it sounds like it's normal for Citroen now.
The rear driver's caliper seems to be sticking half on so that needs investigating and the front driver's ball joint has stripped the thread to such an extent that it can't even be re-cut, so a new ball joint is going to be got for that. I've got the relevant castellated tool somewhere.
All the bleed nipples are made of brie and quite round, rather like a wheel of brie. We will likely replace those too.
Missed the MoT deadline but that's to be expected. At least the car can be moved out of the unit under its own power now so it's not going to be in the way. We'll order a new ball joint, find the tool and get it booked in once that's sorted.
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We're getting there with the place, like the equipment we've got it's nothing too fancy or expensive but it does the job well.
