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Dec 18, 2020 11:27:16 GMT
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Could the water ingress in the front be from the membrane between the doorcard and door? I know that is a major issue on the back doors of Mk4 Golf Platform cars, but replacing the plastic membrane fixes it. I think the Maestro is a perfect winter daily. Old enough to be interesting and fairly simple, new enough to be reliable and have a semblance of comfort and requiring the right amount of TLC to form a bond with it. we have had exactly this on the mx5, the membrane was torn and not stuck down properly, water was dripping off the bottom of the door card onto the top of the seal then down onto the carpet, surprising how much water was coming in, it also leaked around the aftermarket speakers as the water shields had been left off when fitting aftermarket speakers.
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jimi
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,152
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Dec 18, 2020 13:41:14 GMT
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Once dried out it shouldn't be to difficult to track down the leaks, an assistant outside with a hose or watering can and you inside with a torch. Worked for me on various cars.
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Black is not a colour ! .... Its the absence of colour
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xfu990
Part of things
Posts: 78
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Dec 18, 2020 16:26:49 GMT
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Maestro water ingress was an issue from new with these. It took Leyland (BL/Rover/Austin:) an absolute age to find the issue. The main cause used to be the two channels that run along the roof (trim strips, front to back) if you take the end caps off (apply a little heat in this cold weather) peel the them back and fill the hole with dumdum or similar and refit the trim (again with heat) I seem to remember water tracked down the A pillar and came out in the footwells. Leyland had loads of claims at the time as people though it was leaking windscreens, but that only made things worse, as the perfectly good screens got removed and new ones fitted that subsequently leaked as they had failed to be sealed correctly!
qwerty is correct, many people removed the the door cards wanting to fit upgraded speakers (they used to fail also) The plastic membrane got damaged and this provided a perfect water path to the footwells also. An old bin liner and tape is the cure for that. Good luck.
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,266
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Dec 18, 2020 20:42:34 GMT
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I did consider that, but the door card is dry. We'll see tomorrow if my latest attempt to fix it actually worked. For now, here's a new vid. Contains tea shelf.
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Looks like one of those jobs where it's a good thing you didn't have a hammer handy!
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Dec 19, 2020 15:21:17 GMT
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We spent a wet winters afternoon back in the day finding a leak on a Maestro, and as xfu990 states, it was the roof gutter.
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74 Mk1 Escort 1360, 1971 Vauxhall Victor SL2000 Estate.
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,266
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Dec 19, 2020 16:55:47 GMT
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A little more investigation today and I can confirm it's not the door, it's not the moisture membrane, it's not the bit of seam I sealed up, it's not the door seal, it's not the roof gutter, and it's not the roof aerial. It might be the windscreen seal.
My new seal for the rear light cluster isn't fat enough and because I sealed up the seam in the light cluster hole the water is now getting into the boot in a slightly different place, but at least I know why.
I've got some new sealants on the way to sort this out, at least I know the causes and can hopefully remedy them.
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xfu990
Part of things
Posts: 78
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Dec 20, 2020 16:15:03 GMT
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Seem to remember pumping sikoflex around the screen to try to get a seal, others swear by Captain Trolley's sealant (I just swear at it because it never worked for me) Also have a look if it's had a new clutch cable sometimes the bulkhead grommets don't go back quite in the right place, or any other grommets on the bulkhead of course
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,266
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Dec 20, 2020 19:27:25 GMT
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The recent very heavy rain confirmed my suspicions and I now know where the two leak points are. Captain Tolleys actually worked really well as a witness for the windscreen leak since I knew where I'd put it and could see where it was getting washed out, because it's just a bit thicker than water, it left a more obvious trace. The leak at the front is where pressing for the gutter meets the windscreen seal at the driver's side, there's quite a step in the pressing so the rubber seal can't sit flat against it and water is getting in. I'm pumping the seal full of Arbomast (when it arrives) and that will plug up that particular leak. At the back I now know the water leak is the top edge of the rear light cluster. The gasket material I used isn't quite thick enough for one particular spot and I can now see how the water is getting into the light cluster and overflowing into the boot. I've got some butyl tape coming to apply to the cluster and bulk it out in addition to the gasket I made and that should help it seal without sticking the cluster to the back of the car. For now, I stole the Lanchester's hat to keep any more water from getting into the Maestro as much as possible. Taking the cover off when I want to use the car is less hassle than baling it out. I need to get another hat for the Princess. Even though I've got a new windscreen seal to go in, I just haven't found the time/motivation/helper to get it fitted. It's not leaking unless the rain is really heavy and it does dry out really quickly, but since it's likely to be sitting about doing nothing for a couple of months now, it makes sense to put a cover on it to keep the worst of the rain out.
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Dec 20, 2020 20:31:42 GMT
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Arbomast will be good for your rear light cluster too.
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,266
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Dec 21, 2020 22:14:35 GMT
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Happily, the hat has done its job and the car has dried out nicely, so I'm pretty sure my expectation of where the leak is coming in is correct. Tier 4 and seasonal nonsense is probably going to delay what I've ordered for quite a while but fingers crossed it's not too bad. I'll need a fairly dry spell to be able to seal stuff up anyway, no point trying to seal stuff up in the rain after all.
If the butyl tape doesn't work on the rear light cluster in the way I'm expecting it to, Arbomast will be the go-to for that, I imagine there'll be enough of it left over after doing the screen.
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joeytalent
Part of things
ITB Everything.
Posts: 440
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Arbomast will be good for your rear light cluster too. Forgive my ignorance - can Arbomast be used to "top up" a slightly sun baked seal as a temporary solution?
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Dec 22, 2020 13:04:19 GMT
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^^ Yes. It's quite soft when out of the gun, and cleans up with a bit of panel wipe. When dry it's a bit like hard plasticine so still flexes with movement.
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,266
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Dec 22, 2020 18:22:06 GMT
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Arbomast is one of the best suggestions I've had on here, never had it fail to fix a leak since first using it on the Renault 6 I used to own. Fantastic product.
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joeytalent
Part of things
ITB Everything.
Posts: 440
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Dec 22, 2020 22:26:37 GMT
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Thank you both. It turns out to not be readily available in the US, so I'll have to do some digging and see if there is an alternative.
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xfu990
Part of things
Posts: 78
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Dec 23, 2020 14:01:26 GMT
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Everyday is a school day, thanks for sharing the info on Arbomast, most useful.
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,266
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Dec 25, 2020 15:45:32 GMT
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I'm difficult to buy for, apparently. Part of this is because I have pretty much everything I need and I'm not good at asking for things I want. When I do ask for a specific item it's usually for one of the cars and it's usually met with the objection of "I can't buy you that, it's not a proper gift" which I find very confusing. So most people have resorted to giving me money so I can spend it as I like, which is fine, but I would derive quite a bit of joy from unwrapping bits of car while everyone else is unwrapping their soap gift sets and tech. Ah well, guess I'm not like other people.
Anyway, all this is to say the Maestro is getting the benefit of my festive money this year in the form of new headlining fabric and new rear shocks. The former is a job I'm looking forward to, I really dislike when I my fingernails touch the painted headlining board when I use the sunvisors. The latter is a job I'm not looking forward to at all, the suspension has clearly never been touched so I'm expecting all sorts of bolt related shenanigans and I have to use the spring compressors which nobody likes doing... but I think my spine will thank me and it will be nice not to have stuff bouncing around in the boot every time I go over a bump.
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,266
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Dec 30, 2020 21:11:57 GMT
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The next video will be going up on Tuesday the 5th of January. All video uploads after that will be on Tuesdays and I'm aiming for a maximum of 1 per week, and a minimum of 1 per month. Depending on how much content I actually have available, and how popular the uploads prove to be, will dictate how often I upload, it's a part-time thing after all. The next video will go into more detail on the leak hunting, how it's done, and how confusing it can be, what worked and what didn't. In the meantime, here's some update to tide you over until upload day rolls around. So, I did think the water was coming in through the seam on the a pillar to sill panel under the door seal. by the looks of the black paint that's been applied, someone else thought along these lines too. The seam was a bit gappy (there's a few factory seams like this, just seems to be a case of cba from new) so I loaded it up and smoothed it out as best I could with some seam sealer and, once dry, plonked the door seal back on. Then it was a case of waiting for some rain, which came along fairly promptly. Had my attempt to seal up the rear light cluster worked? Initial signs were very promising, until I checked the light cluster itself. I also found water was still getting into the front so I removed the door card. The drain holes in the door were clear, and the moisture membrane looks to have never been disturbed so it didn't look as though the water was getting in that way. I did find out why the front door speaker on this side (and probably the other side, I've not looked into it yet) wasn't working which is that the paper cone has failed and water was getting onto the connections. I unplugged the speaker and plugged it back in and now it works again. With all that done, I started putting tools away and found I'd gained an assistant. Showed willing, just a little slow. Buttoned everything up, left the car again and the weather dutiful rained all over everything and I found water was still getting in. I was fairly confident it was getting past the seal on the rear light cluster now but not sure about how it was getting in at the front so decided to load up the one spot where the roof seams meet the windscreen seal with some Captain Tolley's Creeping Crack Cure. A lot of product disappeared into the seal so my gut feeling was that this was the culprit. Sure enough, some rain later and the product had reappeared inside the car and since I knew where I'd put it in and now know where it got out I can somewhat confidently say that it's the windscreen seal or bonding that's failed which is letting the water in up front. Because I was fed up of bailing out water every time I wanted to use the car, I stuck the Lanchester's half-cover on. This proved successful at keeping the rain out and since it covered the two suspected ingress points, I felt like I was on the right track. Then Storm Bella happened and broke the cover, so I had to sew that back together again and bail quite a bit of water out of the car. Then it was a case of waiting for products to arrive. Covid restrictions and the festive period meant everything was delayed until today, when most items turned up. This included some butyl tape which I used on the rear light cluster. My other attempts at making a seal for this had failed because the seals weren't fat enough. I used two layers of tape and that might have been too much. Hopefully it will fill wherever the void actually is in the cluster and prevent further water ingress. Up front I used some Arbomast sealant. I then took the car for a drive to try and warm it up and dry it out before leaving it overnight to see whether or not it lets any water in... it probably won't rain now, unlike every other night just recently. It's a slightly messy job with the Arbomast, I'll clean off the excess once I know I don't need to put more in, the stuff is non-setting so it's quite easy to clean up at any point after the fact. There was quite a large void behind the windscreen trim on the driver's side so I wonder if the bonding material on this side just wasn't adequate. Fingers crossed that this solves it, Arbomast is usually really good stuff for this sort of job. Another arrival was the Metro head restraint trims because I was fed up of the passenger one rattling. The car didn't have any trims on this side so it was the metal bars of the head restraint rattling against the metal socket inside the seat, the plastic trim acts as a bush and sort of locking mechanism so the restraint is adjustable. I managed to break one of the trims, but luckily the seller had one left so I've ordered that and will replace the broken one when it arrives. Case of me being slightly hamfisted and the plastic being very old and fragile. nother item to arrive was the seed bulbs so I could sort out the one telltale that had failed. Happily that was just a blown bulb and was the only bulb in the dashboard that wasn't working. Someone mentioned that the clock looked like it wasn't illuminated. Now, I was pretty sure it was but it didn't go brighter or dimmer when you turned the lights on so I thought it best to see what was actually going on with that. Looks like whoever did the fuse repair also did the bulb repair here and there's an LED soldered in place of the bulb holder. Funnily enough, I do have the bulb holder for this, it was in the car, and the new bulbs I've got are a direct fit. Once I dig out the soldering iron we'll undo this repair and put a proper bulb and holder in there. Another exciting order to arrive was the new headlining material and glue. The board in the car is in reasonable, if not perfect, condition and since the Maestro is a hatchback I'm hoping removal of the board will be fairly hasslefree. Trying to get moulded headlining boards out of saloon cars is a horror all its own. I went for a generic pale grey rather than anything exciting since the more exciting options I could find weren't the sort of material I wanted to use. Shock absorbers also arrived today, as did the front bumper corner that was feared lost in the post which actually arrived two weeks late. No fault of the seller on that one, just a victim of seasonal circumstances. Plenty of good content still to come on this car. Annoyingly, since resolving the rattling head restraint I'm now aware of the rattling aerial, something I hope to resolve when I have the headlining out since I should then have good access to it. I imagine a trim clip or bit of foam, or something of that sort, has come loose and is allowing the aerial housing to rattle inside the A-pillar. I've got a valve cover gasket on the way to cure the one oil leak I know the car has. I also suspect the manifold gasket might have failed which is the cause of the blowing exhaust noise I can't pin down. If the gasket has blown out underneath the manifold where I can't get in to feel for exhaust come out, that would explain it, especially since the car quietens down considerably once warm. Gaskets are plentiful and cheap, happily. Everything needed on this car seems to be plentiful and cheap, it's so nice to be able to so easily find things.
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Dec 30, 2020 22:56:36 GMT
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Good progress on the Maestro! Its often difficult to trace where the leaks come from. I had some water in the boot of my Rover P5 for yearsa untill i recently discovered there was not enought arbomast used on the rear window seal quit far away. If you apply some masking tape near the area where you apply the Arbomast, you just remove the masking tape and no cleaning needed. It takes a few runs to remove all the Arbmast from a painted area. Keep up the good work!. It is enjoyabel to read Peter
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Just a thought ... "...rattling ariel ..." leak point ??
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Last Edit: Dec 31, 2020 9:50:59 GMT by westbay
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