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Jun 27, 2021 14:36:18 GMT
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Grippy seals or a grippy bore on either the master or the slave would stop the pistons on the rear retracting properly. Either that or if they get too hot just the expanded fluid can hold the brakes on and make things worse. Oh, what do you have for rear brakes? Been looking up options for rear discs on my T2000 which has nearly the spare rear as your Stag (mine's a mk1 so wishbones slightly different). The calipers are off a Ford Mondeo, not too sure what the disk were off I believe it was something like a Nissan 200 SX.The adapter plate for the calipers I did a CAD drawing, then got them waterjet cut. Didn’t cost a great deal only about £30 and they were made out of 10 mm aircraft grade aluminium. There is a picture of them on the second page of this thread. Posse still got the CAD drawing knocking out somewhere if you need it.
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“It Doesn’t Feel Pity, Or Remorse, Or Fear, And It Absolutely Will Not Stop, Ever, Until You Are Dead!”
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,960
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Jun 27, 2021 19:56:30 GMT
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Where you've removed the impeller from the water pump what is setting the thrust position on the shaft?
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Jun 27, 2021 21:36:29 GMT
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Where you've removed the impeller from the water pump what is setting the thrust position on the shaft? The impeller was just pressed onto the shaft, it doesn’t have any other purpose than spinning. It doesn’t stop the any lateral movement of the shaft . The idler is rock solid, no end float. The impeller just sits on the shaft the main load is the Cambelt.
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“It Doesn’t Feel Pity, Or Remorse, Or Fear, And It Absolutely Will Not Stop, Ever, Until You Are Dead!”
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Still in the process of sorting the brakes out, the pedal box is becoming a bit of pain set up correctly. It’s an 0BP one, but have now fitted wilwood master cylinders all round. I’ve also put a 0.7 Master cylinder for the clutch, hopefully this will make the it a bit more controllable. Its very odd, either a poor design or I’ve fcuked it up each time I’ve fitted it. The bias bar would foul in some way, and on some occasions kept the brake on. I also found that it would flex slightly. I’ve done a fair bit to it now both strengthening and machining. With a bit of luck this will be the last time it has to come off. Until the next time. I’ve now got a car part stripped down, but more to take off. There again I’ve got 2 boxes of stuff to put on. Some to sort of the cooling system. The supplier of the electric water pump gave me some wrong info, according to the manufacturer . So I have to re-do the ECU settings, as apparently the pump starts working @8v +, not 25% PMW. Also the pump has two outlets, both AN-16, but I used one one. I was told that this would only slightly reduce the flow. This was not actually true, with the fact the pump is at the rear of the car there might not be enough flow to do the job. The advice was to use both and channel them into one for the inlet. Was a bit of a search to get a steel, alloy or silicone “Y” or swept “T”.
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Last Edit: Jul 1, 2021 21:59:01 GMT by Bullstarz
“It Doesn’t Feel Pity, Or Remorse, Or Fear, And It Absolutely Will Not Stop, Ever, Until You Are Dead!”
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Jul 16, 2021 21:24:09 GMT
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For the last, well for this time, three weeks the car is been in bits trying to sort out the brakes. Took a while to get the pedal box back in, so that was sorted out. I’ve not tried it but it seems like the new master cylinder for the clutch, 0.7 rather than 0.75, is give me a bit of a clutch. I decided to fit a hydraulic handbrake as well, due to the fact that pulling off from a standing start, especially if there’s any sort of uphill gradient, can be a right pain in the asre. Hopefully the hydro handbrake will make things a little bit easier. Putting hydraulic handbrake in I tried the normal handbrake and course it didn’t work properly, what a surprise. So it’s was a case of having to take the prop off reconnect the handbrake cables. Also make the system a little better as it was a while back it was done ( bodged). But even after that and bleeding the brakes though still quite poor, so I took the calipers off I found they weren’t the best. I looked into getting some new calipers from the local motor factors. They weren’t a great deal of help, as the only information I had was, “Ford Mondeo ST 220 mate”. They needed the year, body shape and registration number. I said anything would do, providing they fit the 125 mm carrier, but they’ve said there’s over 15 different types of calipers to choose from. They did mention sending mine off and getting them overhauled, at a cost of £70, didn’t think was that bad, then they mentioned plus carriage and that was it per calliper. So using the wind it in and out tool, plus alot of lubricating oil managed to free them off so they sort of worked. Took ages to bleed them, and the hydraulic handbrake did sort of work as well. The proper handbrake worked well, better than it had them before so the little modification was worth doing. I still wasn’t happy with the rear brakes, so after a lot of looking on eBay and the various different Mondeo calipers I ordered a pair. They were £63 including delivery for the pair, which I didn’t think was too bad compared to how much it cost to get them rebuilt. I did look into getting a rebuild kit but they were knocking on 20 quid apiece, and from past experience I don’t always work, also I didn’t know exactly which calipers I had. As normal the front brakes took an age to bleed, as there’s two bleed nipples per caliper. It’s one of those cases yes all the air must’ve gone, and then you get a big stream of bubbles. A complete waste of about 2 L of brake fluid, mental when the reservoir hold about a thimble full. Once all that curse word was done, the brakes still didn’t seem brilliant, as there wasn’t much of a pedal. Looking at the bias bar the rear master cylinder was getting more movement than the front. Which, as the bias bar was set up correctly, shouldn’t of happened, so this has led me to believe that the issue wasn’t anything to do with the rear master cylinder going tits up, it was the rear calipers all the time, the utter bastards. But they turned up today……but couldn’t be arsed to fit them. The problem with the car ditching coolant, I was hoping, well not hoping as you don’t want it to ditch coolant, but I thought I had an idea what it could be. This was no quick fix as the inlet manifold has to come off. But before you can do that a lot of other stuff that’s come up first. It’s quite a big V, so that is possibly why no leaks were visible for quite awhile and I thought all was well. And it was what I thought it gone wrong after doing the cam belt and waterpump. On the one 1uz engine there’s a couple of O-rings replace one of these had failed. Getting to this stage again wasn’t easy, unless you want to take a lot more parts off and replace more gaskets afterwards. So I hacksawed the pipe off as I started to lose patience. The O-ring size didn’t surprise me as it wasn’t a generic size, nothing even similar to the 2 o ring kits I’ve got. So I had to use the O-ring from a new water pump. I did look at the car with the inlet manifold off and think, shtie I’m at the same stage about a year ago, in fact I'm probably even further behind, what complete utter Cnut. I think the only thing that keeps me battling on, to get the stag done, is the thought that is in a better state than the car, and i use that term extremely loosely, that I’m repairing at work.
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Last Edit: Jul 16, 2021 21:33:25 GMT by Bullstarz
“It Doesn’t Feel Pity, Or Remorse, Or Fear, And It Absolutely Will Not Stop, Ever, Until You Are Dead!”
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Just so you know for future reference (if you don't already), the Mondeo ST220 calipers are shared with all Mondeo MK3 models - at least the fronts 100% are, which I know as I have them on both of my MK6 Fiestas and my Puma as well. You can often find working but used pairs for £25 on eBay, although like you say rebuild kits are a further £20ish per side if you do run into any issues.
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Last Edit: Jul 18, 2021 9:36:50 GMT by jasellan
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Jul 18, 2021 12:43:33 GMT
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Just so you know for future reference (if you don't already), the Mondeo ST220 calipers are shared with all Mondeo MK3 models - at least the fronts 100% are, which I know as I have them on both of my MK6 Fiestas and my Puma as well. You can often find working but used pairs for £25 on eBay, although like you say rebuild kits are a further £20ish per side if you do run into any issues. Yeah these are the rear calipers, apparently the Mondeos have different ones where is a saloon, hatchback or estate. There’s also different ones up to 2005 then from 2004 2007, also a different one from 2006. Add to that some have vented disc.
But the ones I’ve got fit the carrier from the old calipers, so they do fit but still don’t work properly. Handbrake is completely awesome, that’s the mechanical one. The brakes still are not working correctly even with all the new bits, and being bled completely over and over again. Now wondering if the 0.7 master cylinder, even though it’s a brand-new Wilwood, isn’t big enough for these calipers. You can see when you put the brakes on the bias bar Pushes the rear master cylinder before the front, and this shouldn’t happen.
Also the hydraulic handbrake isn’t much use , that’s 0.625bore, which doesn’t really push the pistons out that far. I did look at the Ford Mondeo original master cylinder and it appears that is 25.4 mm. Which in school terms that is 1 inch, and the One I’ve got is 0.7 of an inch. Which could be the issue, as the 1” master cylinder will be pushing more than twice as much brake fluid as the 0.7 bore. But it still doesn’t add up why the issue is only just happened, when a year ago the brakes are fine. Unless the calipers have always had an issue but only just made it noticeable. They old ones where knackered though, so needed replacing.
I had a look round for a bigger master cylinders , I do rely a lot on the Wilwood stuff. Unfortunately the biggest they do is 0.813 bore size, while APS do a 1”. Even more money thrown at the brakes, I’ve ordered both sizes in the vain hope this will sort out the issue finally. Will need a load more brake fluid too but that the cheap part.
So after putting EBC blue stuff pads on the front, taking out the pedal box and replacing all the master cylinders with Willwood ones, changing the brake lines, getting new calipers it seems the issues was/maybe something I overlooked from the very start. curse word.
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Last Edit: Jul 18, 2021 12:48:51 GMT by Bullstarz
“It Doesn’t Feel Pity, Or Remorse, Or Fear, And It Absolutely Will Not Stop, Ever, Until You Are Dead!”
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Jul 18, 2021 13:56:42 GMT
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Your bias bar is set up wrong.
It should be set approx 1/8" inch offset towards the front M/C side. This will give you approx 65% front - 35% rear bias.
Then wind in both M/C pushrods equal amounts to get the pedal in the right place.
Then with someone pressing firmly on the brakes for you look to see how level the bias bar is across the two M/C's. With the brakes firmly applied the bias bar should be level across both M/C's. Adjust the M/C pushrods to achieve this. This will make the bias bar (at rest) be skewed across the M/C's.
It is then set up correctly.
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Jul 18, 2021 19:24:52 GMT
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Your bias bar is set up wrong. Well I had the same issue before I took it all the pieces, and when I looked at it on the bench the bias bar wasn’t set up correctly. So this time I spent quite awhile get it set up right. By screw in the pushrods all the Way in, then back a few threads so not to impede the movement of the clevis. Locking off the rear then winding out the front by 1/4” to get the bias bar cocked in favour to the front. All the centre and measurements were done using a digital caliper check a few times. The basis bar was set to be bang in the middle. I could have made a mistake but I’m sure it correct. I followed what Wilwood and tilton both suggested but still have the problem. Wilwood did mention, when I emailed them, that I might have to test and adjust rear master cylinders to get everything to work correctly, as the front and the rears brakes are totally different. www.streetmusclemag.com/news/adjusting-brake-bias-using-balance-bar-tilton-engineering/if the the biases bar was set up wrong I would have either all front or rear brakes. The fronts work but don’t get enough force to work correctly un less you wind the biased adjuster to the maximum front loading. don’t think there’s anymore air in the system but there may be some hiding away, which would cause the same issue. But any help or advice is always welcome. I’ll look at it again in the week and make sure I’ve not made a glaringly big error but otherwise I’ll just have to wait until the new bits come. But still got loads to do in the meantime.
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Last Edit: Jul 18, 2021 22:33:39 GMT by Bullstarz
“It Doesn’t Feel Pity, Or Remorse, Or Fear, And It Absolutely Will Not Stop, Ever, Until You Are Dead!”
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Jul 18, 2021 22:16:32 GMT
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If you have the bails bar set equal it's set up wrong.
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Jul 18, 2021 22:46:04 GMT
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I can’t get a photo of it but it’s set as in this; The biases bar is centred in the housing.
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“It Doesn’t Feel Pity, Or Remorse, Or Fear, And It Absolutely Will Not Stop, Ever, Until You Are Dead!”
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Jul 19, 2021 17:29:40 GMT
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Before you adjust anything on the pushrods the balance bar should be adjusted like this. The pushrods length has NOTHING to do with the bias. Edit...website wont let me add a photo from the phone - so on PC now.
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Jul 19, 2021 17:41:43 GMT
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Once that is set as shown, get an assistant to push brakes on firmly. Then adjust pushrods so when brakes are firmly applied the balance bar is level across both M/C's.
Nearly every instruction available tells you to set it up wrong, when I found the correct wat to set it up the brakes were transformed.
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Jul 19, 2021 21:22:16 GMT
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Thanks for the advise, I’ll give it a go and see what happens. I’ve never seen that way of adjusting before. The adjuster knob isn’t fitted yet but I’m sure the tread is 7/16 unf which I think is 20tpi. So that would be 2 1/2 turns anti-clockwise to get the 1/8” towards the front.
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“It Doesn’t Feel Pity, Or Remorse, Or Fear, And It Absolutely Will Not Stop, Ever, Until You Are Dead!”
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Jul 19, 2021 22:02:26 GMT
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Yes I think you are correct on the thread size.
Imagine you had a 6 foot beam with 2 poles attached sticking out (M/C pushrods). You have a friend on each pole (M/C's) and you are pushing on the beam in the middle. You will push both friends the same amount. Even if one friend had a 3 foot pole and one had a 5 foot pole (unequal length M/C pushrods) you will still push them equally.
Now imagine the same thing if you hold your beam 1 foot from the middle. The friend nearest you would be easier to push, and the friend further away very hard to push - this is your brake bias.
The reason you adjust the pushrod lengths to get the bias bar level when under full load is you want to push both front & rear brakes with the same amount of movement so all brakes brake evenly, but you want the most pressure to the front brakes.
Hope that explains it easily for you?
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Jul 19, 2021 22:06:51 GMT
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PS, the 1/8" offset is a guide, it can be tweaked to suit your car a bit either way. It's a good starting point though as you are looking for approx 65% front 35% rear bias.
As long as your front brakes lock up before your rear ones you are good. If rear are starting to squeal or lock up under heavy braking adjust the offset a little more.
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Jul 24, 2021 16:58:00 GMT
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It seems like an age while trying to sort the brakes out. It took ages to bleed, still wasn’t happy with the footbrake or the hydraulic handbrake. So I changed the rear master to a .75 bore, didnt make a lot of difference, so I upped it again to a 0.831. That improved things very slightly, with the slight improvement I went the whole hog and put in the 1 inch for Master cylinder.
Even with that it was taking a while to bleed and I still get in bubbles even though everything was tight, and no leaks at all. This meant I would have to replaced all the rear brake lines just in case one of them was letting Air in on the recuperation. Sourcing all the correct brake unions was a bit of a pain as there were imperial and metric. Once everything was fitted it was a bit easier to bleed but still not hundred percent happy with my travel on the brake pedal. Although I’ve not a car out so things may be different on the move.
All the advice I’ve been given about setting up the bias bar/pedal box has been incorporated, but not fully, as other things need to go back on the car before I can drive it, or even attempt to move it out the garage. This will then allow me to see if the brakes are working and how they do need adjusting or if it’s completely poo still.
Once again something that should’ve took a minutes/hours has dragged on for a matter of weeks. The car still needs to be put back together, all the coolant pipes put back on along with the inlet manifold etc. but I have fitted the extra pipework to enable both ports of the EWP to be used. That should increase the flow and allow better cooling of the engine.
Oh yes hanging upside down in the foot well of the car trying to attach the clevis pin to the pushrod with limited room, while in a hot garage on the hottest day of the year was great fun.
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“It Doesn’t Feel Pity, Or Remorse, Or Fear, And It Absolutely Will Not Stop, Ever, Until You Are Dead!”
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Jul 25, 2021 21:37:00 GMT
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When I finished with the car yesterday I left the brake pedal depressed so to pressurise the system overnight. As this would show any leaks or weeps that I’ve got in the system. When I got back this afternoon there was a couple of non-dry unions so I tighten them all up and try to re-bleed them, again. Was weird the way some of the bubbles kept coming from nowhere. Eventually I managed to get two reservoir full of fluid out of a bleed nipple that a was bubble free, which was nice.
The pedal still a bit weird but I know it’s gonna be different because it’s a pedal box and not a normal braking system, it’s similar to how it was. The thing is the bias bar doesn’t act or position how I thought it would do. The bar is “cocked” to start with, then when under moderate pressure it’s still in the same position. Then when you press harder the rear keeps on depressing. Almost as if it still needed bleeding.
It might be completely different when driving the car but I still can’t understand why the rear master cylinder is still being depressed after moderate break force, when you expect it to be fully pressurised as it is a 1 inch for Master cylinder. It doesn’t act how are expected it to or when you apply the laws of physics. Still that nothing new.
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“It Doesn’t Feel Pity, Or Remorse, Or Fear, And It Absolutely Will Not Stop, Ever, Until You Are Dead!”
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Jul 25, 2021 21:49:33 GMT
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Thats not right. Under firm pressure they should both 'go solid' - and if the bar & M/C rods are adjusted correctly they should also be level.
Are the rears discs or drums - can't remember. If discs are the handbrake mechanisms adjusted up tight?
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Jul 25, 2021 22:22:29 GMT
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Rears are disc and the mechanical hand brake is solid after a few clicks. It almost like the pistons retract further than normal, but don’t seem to. The brake light switch is on the rear brake line.and comes on but only after you can feel “ moderate” pressure.
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“It Doesn’t Feel Pity, Or Remorse, Or Fear, And It Absolutely Will Not Stop, Ever, Until You Are Dead!”
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