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Feb 12, 2014 10:50:13 GMT
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I've voted supercharger for one simple reason.... output per £ spent.
If you wanted more power from one of these engines in N/A form, the obvious next step is something along the lines of the M5 unit or later S62, which are much, much more expensive to buy.
Starting to go down the aftermarket camshaft route along similar lines starts to get expensive really quickly, which I don't think is the idea behind thois particular project.
With supercharging, the stock cams are perfect, and the Megasquirt can already be tuned to cope with it... possibly just with the addition of bigger injectors.
With an Eaton M112 from a Jaguar, or possibly even a PAIR of smaller Eaton blowers from the new Mini (both of which should be available for around £200-400), plus a bit of ingenuity and one-off parts fabrication skill (both of which you obviously already have) along with a cheap ebay intercooler and performance superior to that of a N/A M5 is easily achievable without any of the other replacement parts cost issues.
A tuned N/A BMW M60B40 V8 would also be nice, but purely on bang-per-buck the supercharger option wins hands down......providing you still have enough space under the Capri's bonnet?
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Feb 12, 2014 11:16:30 GMT
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great work on the cylinder heads, just the way to go, removing casting flashes and mechanical symptoms of the valve seat machining
i've done valve grinding a few times with electric drill just like that lol, and also once with an old fashioned torpedo shaped electric screw driver. worked great but always found it had slightly narrower lapping "shadow" than doing it by hand. i can only guess its the constant oscillating in the manual method rather than prolonged surges in one direction of rotation on the drill
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Feb 12, 2014 11:18:57 GMT
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n-a for simplicity and THE NOISE.
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Feb 12, 2014 12:13:49 GMT
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Re: brake booster; what about a modern electro-hydraulic booster? Smal, effective, freely placeable  Cool projekt!! |
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Feb 12, 2014 14:11:35 GMT
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Thanks for all the comments & votes - gives me great inspiration hearing all your ideas I wish i'd done a thread right from when i started this project, it would have helped me through all the low spots when things broke/burst/ignited. I'm with Turbeam on the cost thing when it comes to s/c over n/a. Cam sets are a whopping £1200 mainly cos there's four of them and nobody else ever buys them. So n/a tuning is limited by the standard 249/241 9.7/9.4 cams unless someone can do me a cheeky base circle regrind with new ramps, then it would want 32 solid shimmed lifters to take up the gap. That's a possibility. providing you still have enough space under the Capri's bonnet? Don't worry Jim... if there isn't - we'll just make room  |
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Feb 12, 2014 14:28:11 GMT
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Ask piper or kent about regrinds, or newman, Goliath was quoted about 5-600 for a psa v6 which is quad cam.
Have you got pistons yet?
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10mpg
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,253
Club RR Member Number: 204
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Feb 12, 2014 14:35:57 GMT
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I'm absolutely loving this project, I'd given up watching too many readers threads on here, especially when you read yet another thread about changing wheels 7 times then chopping the springs and fretting about sticker choice...This has been the perfect antidote, proper ingenuity and engineering all done using your brain rather than your wallet (where possible).. properly cool car as well LOVE IT!
I'm an N/A fan all the way the noise and the look is awesome but for this it makes no sense, i voted for the 'charger, it'll make it a proper giant killer for minimal outlay and you'll get to show off/use your obvious talents for design and fabrication which i can't wait to see..
MORE PLEASE!
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The Internet, like all tools, if used improperly, can make a complete bo**cks of even the simplest jobs...
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Feb 12, 2014 19:00:13 GMT
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Thanks 10mpg! i too hope the quality of content here will stay high & meaningful... On a different track (but still vaguely relevent) I was checking the CR on an prewar engine i'm rebuilding and because i didn't have the necesary kit to measure the volume with liquid, i was using playdoh to verify the chamber volume. Which brought back many fond childhood memories. but it was too stiff because of the cold so had to warm it up in the microwave first   (i'm guessing it's safe for children so it should be microwave safe too...)  7 Then it's nice and squishy so can fill chamber more easily  with it pressed hard & massaged into every crevice then sliced off flush with a straight blade  and levered out carefully to give a lump of volume x  then to measure the volume of the playdoh using the tube  stuffing it into the tube  then to make it easier to measure, cutting the tube off at the same lenth as the playdoh log inside  (i'd already cut it before i got the camera out, but this gives you the idea) then measuring the length of the playdoh log  which was 10.8cm long, and the internal diameter of the tube 2.8cm. So dragging up a bit of school maths 1.4cm squared = 1.96 x Pi = 6.15cm squared 6.15 x 10.8cm length = 66cc. It's probably only accurate to 0.5cc but handy to get a rough idea on a CR. Thanks for looking |
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Feb 12, 2014 19:04:01 GMT
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n-a for simplicity and THE NOISE. A supercharged M60 might not be so much of a 'screamer' as if a more extreme regrind could be done on the stock cams, but from what I've seen of the M62 versions I don't really think that there is a huge amount of potential in regrinding like this.... probably not even as much as to approach the lift and duration of the stock M5 cams. Proper aftermarket cams would and followers would swallow up a huge proportion of the total project cost. I agree with 10mpg on this, there is going to be more work involved in installing a complete supercharger set up, but the parts involved can generally be sourced on the cheap and/ or be made DIY style to keep costs right down. From what can be seen on this thread so far, I doubt that there is anything likely to be encountered in such an installation that would present even the slightest trouble. I've often seen Eaton M112s changing hands for around £200 (as mine did) and a brand new and a suitably huge 'Chinabay' intercooler should be no more than about £70. For £400 then all in it should be perfectly possible to almost double the airflow rate through the stock M60 engine, which already produces close to 300bhp. A reliable 500bhp+ should be fairly easily achievable in combination with increased torque right through the rev range.... which just isn't possible by going down the N/A route. There are lots of videos on Youtube of supercharged BMW 740i and 540i that give a good idea of the kind of performance that could be expected when one is installed in the significantly lighter Capri. As far as the sound goes, unlike a turbocharger there is no 'pulse damping effect' on the exhaust side with a supercharger..... in fact it often makes it even more pronounced when the exhaust cam is typically advanced a few degrees with a supercharger and there is more energy left in the end gasses. Naturally aspirated BMW V8s are very nice when they can actually be heard with less restrictive silencing, but supercharged ones sound absolutely marvelous! |
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Feb 12, 2014 19:12:55 GMT
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hmmm, bosh a Rotrex on there then |
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Feb 12, 2014 19:19:11 GMT
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Ask piper or kent about regrinds, or newman, Goliath was quoted about 5-600 for a psa v6 which is quad cam. Have you got pistons yet?  couldn't afford the new CP pistons (£1k+). Using an ok set of stock flat-top 89mm pistons with new Nissan KA24E compression rings and re-used oiling rings main problem with tuning these motors is that major new parts are unavailable or v. expensive have had some other cams reground by Newman at reasonable rate so will ask them for a quote |
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Feb 12, 2014 19:27:18 GMT
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I've had an Eaton M112 knocking around the workshop for years, i think it was £160... So as Jim says cost-wise it wins hands down IF all the fabrication work is done by me fairly cheaply and things like intercoolers and larger injectors are picked up cheap on Ebay.
Cams are always costly on V8 multi-valvers. If it was an A-series or a Crossflow i wouldn't blink at getting the best cam out there
Thanks for comments
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Feb 12, 2014 20:49:16 GMT
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Thanks 10mpg! i too hope the quality of content here will stay high & meaningful... On a different track (but still vaguely relevent) I was checking the CR on an prewar engine i'm rebuilding and because i didn't have the necesary kit to measure the volume with liquid, i was using playdoh to verify the chamber volume. Which brought back many fond childhood memories. then measuring the length of the playdoh log which was 10.8cm long, and the internal diameter of the tube 2.8cm. So dragging up a bit of school maths 1.4cm squared = 1.96 x Pi = 6.15cm squared 6.15 x 10.8cm length = 66cc. It's probably only accurate to 0.5cc but handy to get a rough idea on a CR. LOL - Ingenious but a burette is only a tenner! Cold tea is ideal as a liquid as it makes the scale easy to read and it's free. |
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Feb 12, 2014 21:09:45 GMT
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This thread is AWESOME! loving the engine work going in, I was torn between installing a BMW V8 or supercharging the v6 in my cortina, i went down the SC route in the end as the V6 was already installed so it made sense. The conversion isnt too bad, I bought a Eaton M90 from a jag xjr6 so it came with the throttle body attached, basically just made a bracket and plumbed it in! Check the tread for pics or shout if you want more info!
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hmmm, bosh a Rotrex on there then Again, it is just a matter of budget. The older Eaton M112 units are not very thermodynamically efficient, and the later 4-lobe versions are much better in this respect..... but not available at anything like typical Ebay M112 prices. I would personally have liked to use a twin-screw type such as a Lysholm given the choice, or maybe a Sprintex, but again way beyond the project budget. If there is already an Eaton M112 available, then the decision seems fairly obvious to me, and it is just about perfectly sized for this application. Laying it out in the Capri is the start of the really interesting and fun stuff. If there isn't enough space below the bonnet line above either cam cover then there may be no option but to semi-recess mount it between the heads in the valley and fabricate a new inlet manifold....or maybe two separate ones....fed from intercooler/s. If the old M60B30 engine is still around, it could now come in very handy for mock-up purposes. |
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Feb 13, 2014 11:18:41 GMT
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Laying it out in the Capri is the start of the really interesting and fun stuff. If there isn't enough space below the bonnet line above either cam cover then there may be no option but to semi-recess mount it between the heads in the valley and fabricate a new inlet manifold....or maybe two separate ones....fed from intercooler/s. If the old M60B30 engine is still around, it could now come in very handy for mock-up purposes. unfortunately that got sold to a lad for £60 to make a coffee table out of, which was daft because it was full of useful spares back to the head story -  head faces were lightly skimmed to take out some scratches, just a tickle really gave them a good blast through with a pressure washer, then washed through with solvent, then blown through with an airline and then started re-assembling  the thin protective washers under the spring seat don't come out easily and tend to fall out eventually when the head's in the degreasing tank so it's easy to misplace them or end up with 2 on one seat and non on another.  putting in the smaller shaped washers that locate the bottom of the inner valve spring  putting the springs in  oiling up the valve stem then with the valve in and the valve cap on, compressing the spring  I ended up modifying the compressor by welding two long strips and a big washer on the end to allow far more room to slip the cotters in  using a blob of grease to stick the cotter to the end of a thin strip  and more grease on the top of the valve to stick them both in place  oiling up the followers  |
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Last Edit: Jan 28, 2016 20:21:06 GMT by bmwv8capri
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village
Part of things
Always carries a toolbox. Because Volkswagen.......
Posts: 567
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Feb 13, 2014 14:16:20 GMT
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you could also have just dropped the blue stuff into a jug of water and measure the volume change.
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"The White Van is strong with this one...."
Chris "Chesney" Allen 1976-2005 RIP
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Feb 13, 2014 19:23:02 GMT
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I was torn between installing a BMW V8 or supercharging the v6 in my cortina, i went down the SC route in the end as the V6 was already installed so it made sense Loving your cortina, i almost fitted a Sierra 2.9 V6 in the Capri before i stumbled on the BMW motor, the V6 would have been a helluvalot less hassle! |
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Last Edit: Jan 28, 2016 20:23:48 GMT by bmwv8capri
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Feb 14, 2014 12:57:12 GMT
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more of the rebuild 'article' that never saw the light of day threading the cam bearing studs back in with a pair of nuts locked together  then the heads are about ready to go back on the cams can go back in place before the heads go on the block - but it makes it harder to get to some of the head bolts with a 1/2 socket extension So if i was doing it all again i'd leave the cams out until the heads are torqued down  This is where i lost all the pics of putting the bottom end of the motor back together, so it jumps to having the pistons & crank in and the front main timing cover in place  cleaning down skimmed the head face  and the same on the block face  tapping in the locating ferules  fixing the crankcase breather oil seperator loosely because it needs to swing slightly to connect the tube when the head goes on  new head gasket in place  new head bolts, unfortunately the stretch type. they were oiled up before going in  [didn't get a pic of the moment the head actually went on because i couldn't lift it and take a photo all at the same time, but you get the idea] oiling the cam bearing caps  tightening down the bearing caps bit-by-bit in sequence to avoid bending the cam  inter-cam chain tensioner post and the exhaust cam sprocket now on the red loop of wire is temporarily holding up the main timing chain from falling back down into the sump  inlet cam sprocket and chain going on  the sprockets sit over hubs on the front of the cam and so they'll stay in place without the bolts until the cam timing is set later  then the crankcase ventilator tube can be levered sideways to locate in the head & then tightened fully that's about the trickiest part of the whole operation, although setting the cam timing was a bit of a pain |
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Feb 14, 2014 19:46:05 GMT
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made a cardboard timing disc to fit snugly over the main pulley, then the original crank sensor bracket makes a handy marker to set the disc to TDC   standard cam timing is exhaust opens 48 BBDC, closes 14 ATDC. Inlet opens 14 BTDC, closes 52 ABDC. 28 degrees overlap i wanted to try a timing that someone else claimed to give smoother idle & more top end. So set the inlet cams advanced to 0 TDC / 66 ABDC, exhaust staying the same, 14 degrees overlap. So will be interesting to see if closing the inlet valve a bit later will make any difference at high revs  turning the cam using the squared-off lump at the back  torquing the pulley bolts up the red wire is holding the main chain guide in place to keep the chain tight. Because the cam pulley bolts can't all be accessed once the upper timing cover is on, but the cover has the hydraulic tensioner in it, so it's a bit of a catch-22. I expect the dealer cam-timing kit has some special tools in it for doing the same job.  cutting out new gaskets for the upper timing cover  going on with a thin smear of sealant  fitting the main timing chain hydraulic tensioner plunger and cap  torquing down the head bolts in sequence. I don't enjoy the "then tighten xx extra degrees" they specify with the stretch bolts, always makes me nervous...  the valley water jacket cover has a wiggly rubber gasket that fits around a ridge on the face, but mine was knackered and i couldn't find another one so i ground the ridge off to make a flat face, then cut out a new normal gasket for it    with all the timing covers on, starting to look more like an engine!  |
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Last Edit: Feb 14, 2014 21:36:56 GMT by bmwv8capri
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