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Jun 26, 2013 20:07:39 GMT
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i think it is good enough quality judging by the way he was talking about, my plan so far was to go with 20mm OD and was going to hammer the ends flat enouth to drill holes in then theres no welding involved,
Do you reckon i should heat it up too help bend it? or should i just cold work it?
also does anyone think 20mm is too thick?
tah
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Jun 26, 2013 20:17:13 GMT
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Should be in the right ballpark depending on length.
my reference point is a 17mm front arm and 19mm rear as standard in a 205 gti, however I'm running 22mm out back and many use 24mm, 106 gti runs 24mm as standard out back.
if its RWD, of course the opposite applies and the larger bar will be at the front.
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Jun 26, 2013 20:58:34 GMT
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the will be around 600mm width the 45 degree bend then approx 150mm then the droplink.
the car is RWD? do you think i should go thicker then?
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Jun 26, 2013 22:44:36 GMT
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It's very hard for us to say, as it'll depend on a lot of other points about the cars suspension. Spring rates, weight distribution and geometry will all effect it. If it suffers from oversteer then go thicker, if oversteer's not an issue, then there's not really any need to go changing things. How much thicker to try depends how brave you're feeling. Either bite the bullet and give it a go, or get the calculator out and do some reading/number crunching to give you a ball-park starting point.
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yeah very true, sorry that was me just getting over exited, because i mean different rate of shocks will change things too i guess? think ive got all the information i need, gonna try and work the whole thing cold, sweet i will update with pictures when I'm done tah very much
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Jun 27, 2013 15:37:04 GMT
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Just bought this, thinking it may be a bit too thick looking at it? What will happen if the anti roll bar is to stiff? I have put a heavier engine in, and have up rated to stronger spring
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Jun 27, 2013 18:57:39 GMT
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if the ARB is too stiff, then your back-end will slip and slide all over the place. And as that stuff looks thick enough to be used as an ARB for a tank, don't use it Also, you only generally fiddle with ARB's to alter the cars characteristic of being either understeer, or oversteer. They do not give you extra grip, they do not add performance. By nature, they reduce grip, which is why if your car understeers, you shove one on the back, it reduces the rear grip, and thus you can have something close to a "neutral steer" car If you'd like, I'll try to dig out my notes from uni on the subject
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You're like a crazy backyard genius!
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Jun 27, 2013 19:00:14 GMT
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Also, the spring is generally only there to support the weight of the car (softer is actually better!) If you want to make it sportier, you should be tweaking the damper rates, rather than just putting in stiffer springs. But stiffer springs are cheaper, and for most people, they'd never know the difference.... until you were to go on a track, and notice how yours couldn't go round corners as fast as the other cars
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You're like a crazy backyard genius!
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Jun 27, 2013 19:13:03 GMT
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There's a nice book, called "How to make your car handle" by Fred Puhn. Which gives a great intro to the world of suspension and then elaborates what to do and how to do and what not to do if you want to alter the way your car handles. Can't recommend it enough! Plus you'll have all in one book, and not from a bazillion different internet sources... Read it, it's very well worth the money!! Read it - and then read it again There's a lot to ARBs, more than one would first think, as has been said by others here before
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Jun 27, 2013 19:23:06 GMT
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if the ARB is too stiff, then your back-end will slip and slide all over the place. And as that stuff looks thick enough to be used as an ARB for a tank, don't use it Also, you only generally fiddle with ARB's to alter the cars characteristic of being either understeer, or oversteer. They do not give you extra grip, they do not add performance. By nature, they reduce grip, which is why if your car understeers, you shove one on the back, it reduces the rear grip, and thus you can have something close to a "neutral steer" car If you'd like, I'll try to dig out my notes from uni on the subject I think he's making a front ARB, not rear, so too stiff and it'll be the front end that's sliding, not the back. I might have misinterpreted things though. Personally, I think I'd want to get the car on the road and see what the balance is like. As Chairchild has said, big ARB's aren't necessarily good for grip. (There are times when adding them will increase grip, but I don't think a Viva with stiffish spring will be one of those.) On the other hand, making stuff's fun, so go for it and see what it's like I guess. At least if it screws things up it'll only be relatively safe understeer you're faced with.
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Jun 27, 2013 21:12:05 GMT
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ahhhhh there is alot more to it than i thought. yeah its the front anti roll bar. my main objective is to stop it rolling around like a boat!! ive alreday got spax adjustable shocks on the front although I havent yet tried the car with new spring, its also a transverse leaf if that helps/confuses peaple ive got a few pictures of one ive seen on a HA hang on
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Last Edit: Jun 27, 2013 21:16:40 GMT by viva_65
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Jun 27, 2013 21:15:32 GMT
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Jun 27, 2013 21:18:27 GMT
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this is roughly what I'm going for as he said it did make the car handle better
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mikeymk
Part of things
'85 Polo Coupe S 1.6 16v
Posts: 931
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Jun 27, 2013 21:58:58 GMT
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The rear ARB on MK1 Focus is definately narrow enough, should be a good rate for the front axle of a RWD Vauxhall HA too.
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if you want to stop it floundering around, then to keep any form of grip and civility, you will need to keep a soft spring rate up-front, coupled with a relatively strong ARB. Without knowing the COG of the car, the front and rear cornering stiffness, and the mass of the car - you'll just have to wing it Found the pdf with all the notes regarding it - but I can't attach it to the forum So if anyone wants it, give me a shout
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You're like a crazy backyard genius!
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sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
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can you weld a anti roll bar?sowen
@sowen
Club Retro Rides Member 24
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Jun 28, 2013 10:55:25 GMT
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I have nothing constructive to add to this, but I'm watching/reading with interest I need to mess around with ARB's on my Rover P6 to fine tune the handling, and there's nothing off the shelf for it except trying to adapt other OEM stuff, or modifying/fabricating something from scratch to suit, but having a little insight into the cause and effect is helping greatly
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Jun 28, 2013 11:34:16 GMT
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Found the pdf with all the notes regarding it - but I can't attach it to the forum So if anyone wants it, give me a shout E-Mail it to me (strassenbelag at gmx dot net) and I'll put it on my server for everyone
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Jun 28, 2013 12:22:09 GMT
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E-Mail it to me (strassenbelag at gmx dot net) and I'll put it on my server for everyone done Page 15 has the actual equations - page 9 shows some of the scary-ass equations I've had to use though.... Page 17 has a "critical speed" equation - but this only applies to characteristically oversteer vehicles, for understeer vehicles, you'd just have to plot the results of different speeds to make the graph, like on page 16 All units are SI units: mass = kg speed = metres/second length = metres corner stiffness = Kn/rad (this is the bit that's going to cause issues measuring tbh)
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You're like a crazy backyard genius!
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Jun 28, 2013 13:35:51 GMT
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Copey
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,845
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Jun 28, 2013 14:32:44 GMT
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i wouldnt call it too thick, my Capri has a double ARB, each of which are 24mm and that hasnt made the back end twitchy at all
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1990 Ford Sierra Sapphire GLSi with 2.0 Zetec 1985 Ford Capri 3.0 (was a 2.0 Laser originally)
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