Filthyjohn
Part of things
Currently on the road: 1/11
Posts: 705
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Hi, sorry for putting this in General, but My brother and I have only a day and a half to sort this out. Our dad passed away a week ago and we wanted to drive his cherished Rover P5B to his funeral, which is on tuesday. However it had been off the road since the timing chain went on the way back from the Metrocentre meet last year: We didn't know if there was any valve damage (if they are interference) or anything so we decided the best course of action would be a whole new engine. 540 miles later we had an SD1 Vitesse lump for £250: We began swapping the various P5 bits that were necessary; drive plate, oil strainer & sump, etc. Then we dropped it in: Now comes the hard part; it won't start. We had no spark at first, then when attempting to start it some smoke got out of the dizzy! That was just some slightly melted insulation on an earth wire. The SD1 dizzy had points but the P5 was running one of those Lumenition kits you put inside the dizzy (Mk.12). So we decided to swap that over. Cue much scratching of heads and marveling at the craziness of the dizzy. We connected that up as it had been in the P5, and then found we were one tooth out so the rotor arm was pointing at number 8 when it should have been pointing at number 1. We corrected this and triple checked the firing order, going by the cylinder numbers on the inlet manifold to be sure. Now it produces a spark which looks strong enough, but won't give more than the tiniest cough when you turn it over. Should mention that we aren't putting fuel in yet because we haven't reconnected the fuel pump, we're spraying easy start into the carbs which in my experience would normally result in a full second of revs then die off. To summarise: Engine advertised as a runner, with video to prove it, Zenith 175 carbs, in good condition, We fitted new duplex timing chain, New plugs, used silicone leads, Firing order correct, Good oil pressure and smooth turnover, Decent spark, Won't run on easy start, just an occasional tiny cough, as if one or two cylinders are firing. Any help on this would be deeply appreciated, we really want to honour our Dad's memory by driving his car to his funeral.
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'95 Volvo 945 Turbo
'87 Volvo 765 TIC
'75 Opel Manta A 2.0 16v,
'86 Volvo 360 turbo,
'62 amazon,
'67 MGB GT.
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my condolences john. i wish i could be of help, but sadly not. hope you can get it sorted. I'm sure one of the RR massive will be able to help.
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Sorry to hear about your dad. cant help with the V8, but if you need help with any other aspects of the car let me know.
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1993 Fiat Panda Selecta 2003 Vauxhall Combo 1.7DI van 2006 Mercedes Kompressor Evolution-S AMG SportCoupé
"You think you hate it now, wait til you drive it"
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Filthyjohn
Part of things
Currently on the road: 1/11
Posts: 705
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Thanks lads, I'm off through to Newcastle to pick me new suit up. Will check back when I get in.
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'95 Volvo 945 Turbo
'87 Volvo 765 TIC
'75 Opel Manta A 2.0 16v,
'86 Volvo 360 turbo,
'62 amazon,
'67 MGB GT.
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wildy
Part of things
Posts: 134
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Firing order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. Number 1 is at front of engine. Left bank odd numbers, right bank even.
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fogey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,614
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Sorry for your loss, John.
If it's coughing on easy start I'd be tempted to get some fuel in the carbs and see how if it fires. Even if the pump is still disconnected and it's just the float chambers full, it would eliminate that side of things.
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Sorry for your loss. That's a lovely thing you are doing by having his P5 there! I can relate to that.
In my experience of the Rover V8 (I've had one or two) Easy Start won't cut it on its own, I never use it with any of my vehicles. What you need is good, high octane petrol. If the engine turns over, there's a good spark and everything is moving freely then put some petrol in the carb and see what happens, I believe you'll get more then a tiny cough. If the fuel pump isn't connected try using a small jerry can and gravity to feed the engine so you can get it running over a short period of time.
Let me know how you get on!
Ian
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1971 Range Rover 1977 Jeep Cherokee 1982 W123 Merc 230CE 1992 Peugeot 405 TD Saloon 1995 Peugeot 405TD Estate (having a rest) 1990 Peugeot 205 CJ - For Sale 1985 Peugeot 305 GTX 1979 Honda Accord MK1 1995 BMW E34 TDS 1994 BMW E34 TD 1998 Mercedes 320 CLK
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Filthyjohn
Part of things
Currently on the road: 1/11
Posts: 705
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Hi guys, just been messing with it now.
We found we had no spark, then put the old (lucas) coil back on, and we've now got a spark. It's a pretty weedy one though. We turned it over with some fresh petrol gravity fed, and got a big cough out of one bank of exhausts, then back to nothing.
The petrol is fresh from shell, but the V-power was off so I got 95RON. This being an SD1 engine I hoped that'd be ok.
I'm now thinking weak spark, and looking at the wiring diagram there's mention of a "ballast resistance", and the correct colour wire for it heading away from the coil into the main loom. The trouble is, I don't know what or where a "ballast resistance" is!
As I understand it, this engine runs 9v from the coil, but has some sort of amplification during starting to give it 12v. I think this is either the ballast thing or a direct 12v feed from the starter. I'm about to try giving it a direct 12v from somewhere.
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'95 Volvo 945 Turbo
'87 Volvo 765 TIC
'75 Opel Manta A 2.0 16v,
'86 Volvo 360 turbo,
'62 amazon,
'67 MGB GT.
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wildy
Part of things
Posts: 134
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Have a read of this:http://www.classicroverforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9936 Have you swapped the timing covers? Or have you removed an SD1 engine? As according to this the distributors wouldn't be interchangeable.
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Filthyjohn
Part of things
Currently on the road: 1/11
Posts: 705
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It's a full SD1 engine, with SD1 timing cover, water pump and dizzy. We only needed to swap the very bottom section of the timing cover which holds the oil filter, so it would clear the crossmember. The dizzy has a longer shaft on the SD1 because the water pump is bigger. Now that dizzy contains all the innards of the P5B one, including the lumenition kit. It all fitted together really easily, and there's some spark so I think that's all ok. I'm sure I just need a fatter spark really.
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'95 Volvo 945 Turbo
'87 Volvo 765 TIC
'75 Opel Manta A 2.0 16v,
'86 Volvo 360 turbo,
'62 amazon,
'67 MGB GT.
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Filthyjohn
Part of things
Currently on the road: 1/11
Posts: 705
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Right, I give up.
Tried a constant 12v to the positive side of the coil, still a weak spark. It's obviously beyond my talents.
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'95 Volvo 945 Turbo
'87 Volvo 765 TIC
'75 Opel Manta A 2.0 16v,
'86 Volvo 360 turbo,
'62 amazon,
'67 MGB GT.
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Maybe worth giving scary a ring and see if he is able to pop over to try and sort it ?
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1993 Fiat Panda Selecta 2003 Vauxhall Combo 1.7DI van 2006 Mercedes Kompressor Evolution-S AMG SportCoupé
"You think you hate it now, wait til you drive it"
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More condolences dude, gotta be a real heart break. This is a ballast resistor The idea is that you have a feed to the coil that runs only when the key is in e start position that runs 12v and another feed that runs only when the key is in the run position that goes through the ballast resistor to drop it to 9v. Is the coil getting hot? Can you hold your hand on it when the engines been running for a while? If you have a multimeter pull the coil feeds off and check what voltages your getting in both e start and run key positions. Go through and check all e connections between dizzy, coil, ignition and earth. Check the condition of your rotor cap and arm, they need to be excellent. Which coil did you use, the p5 or the sd1? Hope you make it in time for the old guy.
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Koos
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squonk
Part of things
Posts: 864
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One problem you have here is that you are mixing and matching parts from two different ignition systems. You need to have a greater understanding of how each system works before doing this. Working with what you have installed, what voltage coil is fitted? It should be marked on it. If the car has a ballast resistor ignition system the coil should be either 6v or 9v but not 12v. If it is not a ballast resistor system it should be a 12v coil. Once you have established what the coil voltage should be take a multimeter and with the ignition turned on measure the voltage at the coil. If a ballast resistor is fitted it will be either 6v or 9v. If one isn't fitted it should be 12v. Next crank the engine over and measure the voltage at the coil. In either case it should be 12v. Also check your firing order very carefully. The diagram below is from a Range Rover EFi but the layout should be the same for the P5B The distributor order is as below: One final thing, it looks like the engine you have fitted is from a manual. Presumably the P5B is an auto? Did you change the crank thrust washers for the right ones before fitting? The end float is different for the auto and the manual and if not set correctly will result in the eventual failure of the rear crank oil seal.
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2004 Chevrolet Avalanche Z71 2005 Mercedes CLK320 Cabriolet 1996 Mercedes C180 Elegance Auto Saloon 1996 Rover 620Ti (Dead fuel pump) 1992 Toyota HiLux Surf 1987 Range Rover Vogue (Rusty) 1992 Range Rover Vogue SE (More Rusty) 2006 Chrysler Grand Voyager 2008 Corsa 1.4 Design
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Hmm pic no wrk...
Ok use your imagination time...it's a ceramic white block about 2.5 inches in length with a wire connection on each end and a single bracket wrapped around the middle. There's also a later type that's a sheet of folded ali with some spade connectors poking out one side.
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Koos
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Squonk makes a good point, but those lead positions can end up moving round is the dizzy wasn't aligned properly when it went back in.
Worth checking with a timing light if the spark is happening at the right time.
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Koos
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And what you have is a Range Rover engine, as that's what came with zeniths, an SD1 would have SUs
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Koos
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squonk
Part of things
Posts: 864
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Or if a timing light is not available, turn the engine to TDC compression stroke on No. 1, pull off the distributor cap and look at where the rotor arm is pointing.
One other thing, RV8's are very sensitive to ignition components. They do not like poor quality rotor arms and distributor caps. I once spent over £600 on a Range Rover trying to discover the cause of rough running only to discover that it didn't like the brand new rotor arm that was fitted!!
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2004 Chevrolet Avalanche Z71 2005 Mercedes CLK320 Cabriolet 1996 Mercedes C180 Elegance Auto Saloon 1996 Rover 620Ti (Dead fuel pump) 1992 Toyota HiLux Surf 1987 Range Rover Vogue (Rusty) 1992 Range Rover Vogue SE (More Rusty) 2006 Chrysler Grand Voyager 2008 Corsa 1.4 Design
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squonk
Part of things
Posts: 864
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And what you have is a Range Rover engine, as that's what came with zeniths, an SD1 would have SUs The OP says the engine was from an SD1 Vitesse so it should have had the early EFi system originally fitted, not carbs.
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2004 Chevrolet Avalanche Z71 2005 Mercedes CLK320 Cabriolet 1996 Mercedes C180 Elegance Auto Saloon 1996 Rover 620Ti (Dead fuel pump) 1992 Toyota HiLux Surf 1987 Range Rover Vogue (Rusty) 1992 Range Rover Vogue SE (More Rusty) 2006 Chrysler Grand Voyager 2008 Corsa 1.4 Design
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