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I have to say, this would make a great book.
We need heating but we're so remote electricity doesn't exist so it has to be fire
We need to keep the fire running all night because our house is actually a 17th century fridge
We can't keep the fire running all night because an old retired fireman won't allow it
We need to keep the fire running all night because the old retired fireman is retired and old
We can't put oil or gas heating in because the dinosaurs haven't finished turning thier flesh & bones into oil in this part of the world
Etc...etc...
Paul, what I can't get my head around is your family all looking to live in a house that has no menas of meeting your needs. Surely if your fireman uncle/grandad is that suseptible to cold you should be looking at this as a family thing rather than you thinking it'll be (in your own words) a fun project to do?
Is there NO electricity at all? If there is, then put some storage heaters in if keeping warm right the way through the night is that essential. If there isn't, then maybe you've got other things to worry about than a log fire?
How is it only now in this grand story that we hear about the fireman grandad putitng the fire out every night? Surely this would have been important info from the start?
Personally, I can't see that the world is any colder than it was 100 years ago. Hot water bottles, extra blankets, insulation...all things that are a lot cheaper and a lot less hassle than trying to create an overnight fire that an overzealous ex-fireman keeps putting out.
If that's really not enought, then again, think about storage heating. Or something that Fireman Sam won't be able to worry about burning the house down. Or put him in the caravan with a small heater and be done with it?
It just seems you're trying to acheive the impossible with more and more conflicitng factors.
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smellyferret
Posted a lot
Back in a retro after 7 years!
Posts: 1,121
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I was reading through this.. Started with 'fair enough' was going to suggest an AGA and there are good comments on coal etc.. But as I now see MM has pointed out, you fail to mention some very important facts... Can I suggest you rephrase it all into one concise post and then we can make informed suggestions? Until then I will revert to the tried and tested cats:
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stefan
Posted a lot
If it isn't broken fix it till it is
Posts: 1,598
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Fit a charnwood LA multi fuel burner will burn for 12 hours on a load before needing refilling and has a glass door on the front so very safe over night. The LA45 that I have gives out 3.1KW to the room and 10.1KW to the water.
Fully designed to burn 24 7 and have lower flue gas temps than an open fire so less likley to have a chimney fire, down side is it burns smokless fuel alot better than wood b ut it does meet all other requirements and you can still burn wood during the day when people are in the house. Charnwood is 71% efficiant and open fire about 35% so alot better in that respect as well.
The only other thing that will work is a trianco aztec electric boiler but that will cost more than smokless at night and wood during the day.
they seem like your best options, other than that it will have to be a pillow over the face for 10min if he puts out the fires at night
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POWER IS EVERYTHING WITHOUT CONTROL
1985 Honda jazz 1997 Saab 93 convertible 2010 transit 280
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bl1300
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,678
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Currently the heating setup is such.
In dining room there is a multi fuel burner with a raddle grate thing in it fitted with a back boiler. This provides all hot water and central heating and was fitted brand new 4 months ago under the welsh governments warm home scheme. The flue and chimney were both brand new and fitted at the same time.
In the lounge there is an enclosed cast iron log burner thing that seems to heat the room far more effectively with the doors open. There are open fire grates in all other rooms bar the kitchen but these are rarely lit.
I'm confident that I will be able to persuade Eric to leave the fire in over night before long but failing that i'll just re light it after hes gone to bed and after the grate has had a chance to dry out. Oh and as to how does he put it out 5 washing up liquid bottles filled with plain water get squirted onto the embers.
There is no mains gas and the access road is too small for the tankers that deliver gas and oil.
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Last Edit: Nov 5, 2012 20:24:30 GMT by bl1300
Current fleet.
1967 DAF 44 1974 VW Beetle 1303s 1975 Triumph Spitfire MkIV 1988 VW LT45 Beavertail 1998 Volvo V70 2.5 1959 Fordson Dexta
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Well if you have a stove with back boiler to heat the rads, why not keep that going overnight to keep the radiators warm? Block all chimneys to open fires to stop drafts and never use them again.
Surely the new stove and heating should be doing the job? Next up insulate and draft proof as best as possible.
The use of open fires should be phased out - pollution from open fires is really quite bad!
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bl1300
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,678
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Thats the intention the question was about ways to keep the fire in back boiler burner going through the night.
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Current fleet.
1967 DAF 44 1974 VW Beetle 1303s 1975 Triumph Spitfire MkIV 1988 VW LT45 Beavertail 1998 Volvo V70 2.5 1959 Fordson Dexta
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lippyp
Part of things
Posts: 29
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Are you sure you can't get an LPG tanker up the road? We live in a farmhouse built in 1630 thats up a dirt track and have LPG fired central heating, the company we use has small tankers specifically to be able to get to rural properties. Check with some local companies, they'll come out and have a look and tell you. If the access road is that bad what about widening it enough to get something up there, would also help in an emergency if Grandpa is proved right and theres a fire, not so much fun if the fire engines can't get to the house!
We also have two woodburners here, the big one in the living room is a cheap one and proves the point that not all wood burners are created equal as it eats wood at a prodigious rate and is hard to get to stay in for any great length of time, the smaller is better at staying in but not brilliant. We also have a house in France and our only heating there is from a single wood burner and its bloody brilliant, its a Clearview and I can't reccomend them highly enough, it throws out huge amounts of heat, lights with absolute ease and is so controlleable its like turning the gas down when you push the bottom damper in. It'll happily stay in overnight if you bank it up before you go to bed and shut it right down, enough so that in the morning all it needs is a poke and some small sticks thrown in and its up and roaring away again (much like me!). Oh and the glass NEVER gets dirty, Cheap wood burners suck.
It does also depend on what you burn, burning scrap softwood is OK but theres no substitute for well seasoned hardwood, we burn mostly oak and some beech. Oak particularly burns nice and slowly. Well seasoned is also important, it needs at least a year air drying, two if possible.
Open fires are very inneficient compared to a log burner and from an environmental point as long as you get your logs from a sustainable source then its pretty much carbon neutral. Coal whilst it provides great heat is an environemental nightmare and as others habve mentioned needs a different set of circumstances to burn well so really you need to burn one or the other to get the burner at its most efficient.
Where our house is in France is a big timber producing area and most people heat and even cook still on wood. In fact my nearest village has just installed a centrally operated central heating system for the whole town, basically they've put in a massive boiler house thats run on wood pellets made from the waste product of the local sawmill and the heat is then piped around the village underground to all the houses. We have a friend over there who has just replaced her Jotul woodstove with one of these new pellet stoves, it burns again pelleted sawdust so you fill a hopper and it self feeds, they are very efficient and will keep burning as long as theres pellets inthe hopper but you would need to buy the pellets in.
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Last Edit: Nov 6, 2012 9:57:11 GMT by lippyp
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Mark
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,097
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Last Edit: Nov 6, 2012 10:27:38 GMT by Mark
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Nope not in chilly England - nothing is cheap here, best price I got on the big red bottles 45kg? was £60 if buying multiples and thats probably gone up now.. BL1300 that new stove thats been put in should burn all night relatively simply - BUT NOT if you burn wood, its got a coal grate in it so you're going to need to burn coal. On the plus side you might get the OAP's winter fuel allowance (if it hasn't been cancelled to save the government money) to buy it with Our log burner stayed in all night last night for the first time - stacked it up with slightly rotten oak and shut the dampers down ;D I doubt it was putting out any meaningfull amount of heat most of the night though.
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bl1300
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,678
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Oak we can do. We have 3 acres of coppised oak ready for harvest now just wish I new what to do with it. Its got a multi fuel grate in it. There is a lever on the side that can be used to open and close the grate. oh and heres the burner. The glass tends to keep itself clean as long as the big vent along the top of the burner is kept open.
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Current fleet.
1967 DAF 44 1974 VW Beetle 1303s 1975 Triumph Spitfire MkIV 1988 VW LT45 Beavertail 1998 Volvo V70 2.5 1959 Fordson Dexta
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Once harvested that Oak - and anything else you cut down now - will need AT LEAST a year to season. Burn it too soon and it'll produce little heat and a lot of soot and corrosive combustion products.
If you don't have stocks of seasoned wood ready for burning, standing deadwood can be a useful source of immediately usable fuel.
As for the grate: when burning coal you want it open - coal burns best with air fed from underneath. When burning wood you want it closed as wood burns best on a bed of it's own ash.
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bl1300
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,678
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It will be seasoned before any type of use. The fires are mainly fed with dead wood as you say and often bits of scrap wood scavenged from the tip old pieces of throw away furniture that you can pick up for peanuts. The barn is stacked high throughout the summer. Currently we have enough dry wood stored in the barn to last through to next summer without issue.
I'm not sure I like this idea but within the houses history journals its documented the for a time the fires were augmented with pete dug out of the land and dried out. As far as I'm concerned though that is too scarse a resource to use now despite the fact there is a lot of pete bog on the land.
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Current fleet.
1967 DAF 44 1974 VW Beetle 1303s 1975 Triumph Spitfire MkIV 1988 VW LT45 Beavertail 1998 Volvo V70 2.5 1959 Fordson Dexta
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Not sure Pete would like that. Unless you mean peat? ;D But you're right, it's not a renewable fuel - although neither's wood if it's not being re-planted.
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Last Edit: Nov 6, 2012 18:26:48 GMT by jrevillug
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bl1300
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,678
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I did mean peat lol.
True but peat takes 1000s of years to form where as a tree can be planted and harvested in a few decades. This is the reason the Oak plantation is coppised as it can be harvested every 20 years or so and each tree is left to regrow after.
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Current fleet.
1967 DAF 44 1974 VW Beetle 1303s 1975 Triumph Spitfire MkIV 1988 VW LT45 Beavertail 1998 Volvo V70 2.5 1959 Fordson Dexta
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lippyp
Part of things
Posts: 29
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Theres your problem, to keep it in overnight on wood you need some good hefty hardwood logs, old chair legs will never do it. Coppiced wood is great but it tends to be fairly small in diameter and again you have the problem of it burning through fairly quickly. It may well be worth buying in some bigger logs if you don't have access to them on your land just to use at night.
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Thats the intention the question was about ways to keep the fire in back boiler burner going through the night. I'm really confused. It sounds like the best way to keep it burning overnight is to stop grandad from putting it out every night. Do you actually even know how well it works burning wood overnight if it's put out every night? You're looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't necessarily exist.
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1989 Peugeot 205. You know, the one that was parked in a ditch on the campsite at RRG'17... the glass is always full. but the ratio of air to water may vary.
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stefan
Posted a lot
If it isn't broken fix it till it is
Posts: 1,598
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It looks like a hunter herald 14 in the pictures, if it is it is designed to burn smokeless fuel over night not wood it is listed as intermittent when burning wood.
By the way you your hearth should be 150mm to the sides of the stove yours looks alittle short
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POWER IS EVERYTHING WITHOUT CONTROL
1985 Honda jazz 1997 Saab 93 convertible 2010 transit 280
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bl1300
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,678
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I hope the hearth isn't short as it was laid by the same heating engineers that instaled the stove and was specifically laid for it, the old hearth that had a wood fired rayburn on it was removed.
We still have that rayburn but its not plumbed up anymore so may be sold its extremely extremely heavy though!
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Current fleet.
1967 DAF 44 1974 VW Beetle 1303s 1975 Triumph Spitfire MkIV 1988 VW LT45 Beavertail 1998 Volvo V70 2.5 1959 Fordson Dexta
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I wouldn't have thought the thermal shock to the boiler of dumping water into it every night would be doing it any favour either....
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stefan
Posted a lot
If it isn't broken fix it till it is
Posts: 1,598
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Its not the distance in front of the stove although thats needs to be 225mm it is the distance to the sides of the stove they need to be 150mm
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POWER IS EVERYTHING WITHOUT CONTROL
1985 Honda jazz 1997 Saab 93 convertible 2010 transit 280
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