eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Jun 14, 2016 10:00:02 GMT
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I read the link. But This should not be the cause. I use an original granada automatic brake pedal (although the car was originally a manual car), in the original pedal box on the original pedal shaft, attached to the original booster (same for all larger V6 engined models) with the original pushrod and ending in an original (albeit later model Granada) MC. I actually verified the manual pedal versus the automatic pedal this weekend again, to be sure I hadn't overlooked anything when converting the pedal box. So I'm pretty sure this is not it. But I'm for now taking the approach to get the car MOT ready and aligned so at MOT time the brakes will be proven either ok, or rubbish officially. And if they are rubbish officially, I think I'll just drop the car somewhere and tell them to fix it. For 10 minutes with a tape measure might it not be worth a check to ensure the ratio is right? Knock the simple stuff off first before getting into vacuum etc. P.  Yep it might! ;-) And I'm not trying to be a wiseguy or anything, or unappreciative, but we've been over this. If this is wrong, than Ford designed it wrong. As said it's all original components that are supposed to be on this car. It's not like I created a hacked up frankenstein pedal or decided to use an MC or booster from a different car. It's all Granada original stuff at worst, I decided to use a later model MC as that is "bigger" internally. And to repeat myself: the same braking system (only with old components) worked fine before the restoration!! That is also why it is so bothersome that now with all new parts that individually seem to do theri thing, the total system feels so weird. Thing is though, I have no recollection of pedal feel from years ago. That is a drawback to it being 6+ years since this car last drove. But I do know I never had any doubts about the brakes before and now with all NEW components, I seriously do and have from the very beginning. That tells me I need not simply dismiss this. But all the basics have been gone through, now with help and second or even third pairs of eyes. So it is hard to diagnose. And the brakes do seem to work. So I keep coming back to working out the last remaining jobs and just going for MOT. |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Jun 14, 2016 10:16:15 GMT
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When you say a later model Granada master cylinder, how much later? The whole setup (master cylinder, servo and pedal box) will be matched to give a certain amount of fluid movement to the wheels for a certain movement at the actual pedal end. For example - if it's all arranged to make 10cc of fluid (no idea if that is right or not - random figure) for a 50% pedal depression by your foot, that will translate to a (again example figure) 15mm movement of the piston. As its a direct acting servo, that will be 15mm of the pushrod, hence 15mm at that part of the pedal which by the leverage ratio will be (say) 100mm at the pedal rubber - your foot. If you are trying to move more fluid (due to larger Pistons in the calipers), then the MC can't do this without more stroke - in which case normally you would try and go up a size to match the ratio. This then keeps the servo and pedal bit happy as it does the same linear movement (travel) to move the caliper pistons out the same amount. If, however, Ford at some point changed the setup to make it less servo and master cylinder travel then either the caliper pistons will get smaller or the master cylinder bore gets bigger to adjust the ratio to match the new pedal lever ratio. In short - pedal/servo/master cylinder/calipers need to match original. If anything is different from original, then what's the difference? If it all matches, then it might simply have a longer pedal than one is used to - either that, or the rears have too much clearance (adjusters not working correctly?) and the "slack" is taken up by them first resulting in a long pedal? Apologies if this is already known - just thinking out loud. No need to appologise for thinking out loud. And I need to let your story work in on my somewhat. But a lot has been covered before I think. A few reminders off the top of my head: - With three (different inner sizes) different MC's the problem has always been there since the rebuild - The new calipers have the same piston size as the old ones, just more pad surface (but I'm at the point I may put on the old ones just to eliminate this...) - The new wheel cylinders have the original diameter inners - I cannot adjust the wheel cylinders out further or the drums (that have NO LIPS) will not fit over them anymore. Also the handbrake is so effective this indicates well adjusted rears. - The new MC I bought the biggest one as everyone said that it should push more fluid with the same throw and therefore help braking. So the system consists of new hard and flex lines. New calipers of the same capacity pistons, new wheel cylinders as per original dimensions. The original booster (as far as I know, all V6 ones are the same) and pedal assembly only now for an automatic. As far as I have been able to determine, all Granada Mc's have the same travel inside. Pedals are also all the same. Booster also seems to be either a 4 cylinder version or a 6 cylinder. But no difference between V6's. I'm still puzzled. I have to admit, even though I value SamJ's opinion and I will do as he advised working toward MOT and just seeing what the outcome will be, it still bothers me and it keeps me up at night. |
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Jun 14, 2016 10:53:03 GMT
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source of vacuum or how much its producing is irrelevant (unless its too little) the engine vacuum is just emptying the servo chamber, like a reserve or accumulator for negative pressure, and the negative pressure is equal both sides of the piston. vacuum only acts to aid pedal effort once the pedal is pressed, it cant suck it down on its own. also, its not linked to the hydraulic system what so ever, so cannot affect pedal travel versus fluid displaced, it can only affect the effort. if the vaccum is sourced from the inlet manifold of a normally aspirated petrol engine it will be the same (maximum) regardless of engine type or configuration
agree with previous post, if the engine revs are dipping at the first or second pedal application, you have a leak. the one way valve just stops the vacuum escaping back towards the engine when its stops making any (wide throttle angles, low engine load)
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Last Edit: Jun 14, 2016 10:55:36 GMT by darrenh
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Jun 14, 2016 10:58:53 GMT
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Do the new hard and flexi lines have the same internal bore size?
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Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
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Jun 14, 2016 11:45:39 GMT
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Your logic seems good - a larger master cylinder should make for a shorter pedal but more pressure required.
There was talk about the rear shoe arrangement changing at some point - did the drum diameter change at all? I'm thinking the shoes might be the wrong size and whilst making initial contact soon enough might be bending/moving when pressure is applied?
If you have rubber hoses, then clamp them off and see what the pedal is like then? If you have stainless ones then you can't do that. I'm also assuming there isn't any pressure limiting device in the system that can be possibly affecting things?
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Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
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Jun 14, 2016 11:55:30 GMT
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Another thought - I've fitted new pads/shoes in the past and they've felt "strange" until they've bedded in (maybe not a perfect match to the surface of the drum/disc - sometimes an issue with aftermarket parts especially if the patterns/moulds are getting old as they probably are being for cars that are 40+ years old).
If it seems to stop well enough, I'd get the brakes checked as part of the test. By the sound of it, they will be OK for efficiency. They may get better just by the act of driving it for a few kms once you've managed to get rid of the "newness".
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Jun 14, 2016 12:03:18 GMT
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Alex, apologies for asking the obvious...
Is the rubber pipe to manifold secure? how does the pipe attach to the manifold itself i.e. is it part of the casting with a jubilee clip or is it a screw in fixture ? if screw is it tight ? (does it need any ptfe tape around thread?)
Is the non-return valve on booster chamber new or the original ?
Once again apologies for thinking aloud!
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Jun 14, 2016 12:17:53 GMT
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Another thought - I've fitted new pads/shoes in the past and they've felt "strange" until they've bedded in (maybe not a perfect match to the surface of the drum/disc - yeah same here |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Jun 14, 2016 14:11:06 GMT
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Wow, so much info, I'll need to let it work into my thick skull...
I do know that right now I'm starting to hate my car...
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Jun 14, 2016 14:30:52 GMT
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source of vacuum or how much its producing is irrelevant (unless its too little) the engine vacuum is just emptying the servo chamber, like a reserve or accumulator for negative pressure, and the negative pressure is equal both sides of the piston. vacuum only acts to aid pedal effort once the pedal is pressed, it cant suck it down on its own. also, its not linked to the hydraulic system what so ever, so cannot affect pedal travel versus fluid displaced, it can only affect the effort. if the vaccum is sourced from the inlet manifold of a normally aspirated petrol engine it will be the same (maximum) regardless of engine type or configuration agree with previous post, if the engine revs are dipping at the first or second pedal application, you have a leak. the one way valve just stops the vacuum escaping back towards the engine when its stops making any (wide throttle angles, low engine load) Thanks for this! As you explain it is exactly as I would have expected. I knew that the vacuum assist only affected the feel of the pedal as in the effort it takes. The only thing I have trouble with is where to look for a possible leak. As the booster pulls vacuum and so far the vacuum line has not given any indcation of leaking. And the phenomenon only presents itself with the pedal pushed (mainly when pushed repeatedly). |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Jun 14, 2016 14:31:44 GMT
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Do the new hard and flexi lines have the same internal bore size? Yes. |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Jun 14, 2016 14:35:34 GMT
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Another thought - I've fitted new pads/shoes in the past and they've felt "strange" until they've bedded in (maybe not a perfect match to the surface of the drum/disc - sometimes an issue with aftermarket parts especially if the patterns/moulds are getting old as they probably are being for cars that are 40+ years old). If it seems to stop well enough, I'd get the brakes checked as part of the test. By the sound of it, they will be OK for efficiency. They may get better just by the act of driving it for a few kms once you've managed to get rid of the "newness". Although some bedding in may help the brake effectiveness, I would be surprised if the pedal firmed up or starts grabbing sooner. But True the car has no miles on it at all. |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Jun 14, 2016 14:41:15 GMT
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Your logic seems good - a larger master cylinder should make for a shorter pedal but more pressure required. There was talk about the rear shoe arrangement changing at some point - did the drum diameter change at all? I'm thinking the shoes might be the wrong size and whilst making initial contact soon enough might be bending/moving when pressure is applied? If you have rubber hoses, then clamp them off and see what the pedal is like then? If you have stainless ones then you can't do that. I'm also assuming there isn't any pressure limiting device in the system that can be possibly affecting things? Hi, All rear brake parts are original. Yes there was discussion on whether the wheel cylinders are supposed to be on top or at the bottom of the backplate, but in my MK1 they belong at the bottom. The brake drums are the same as were on there and don't have any lips or issues with roundness. They are the original fitment wide type (smaller engined versions had narrower drums and shoes). The brake shoes are new replacement items. And yes they may need some bedding in. But they match the originals exactly in size and they seem to be a very nice fit in the drums. Yes, in hindsight I think we should have clamped off the hoses, but we felt it wouldn't add to the discussion at that point. As the car does brake and stop. |
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Clement
Europe
ambitious but rubbish
Posts: 2,095
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Jun 14, 2016 15:57:39 GMT
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Just catching up here, but have you thought of defective brake lines? Even though they are new they could be collapsing internally or instead acting like a balloon. As for the brake-related rough running, is the servo connected in the right place on the manifold? The volume of air in the servo is small, but I guess that it could be non negligible if it is sucked into the engine after the MAP/MAF/whatever it uses for engine management. It must be incredibly annoying for you, but I do find these issues very interesting to resolve... Sorry  |
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logicaluk
Posted a lot
Every days a school day round here
Posts: 1,373
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Jun 14, 2016 20:40:03 GMT
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Sounds abit like a ballooning hose to me. it would be worth getting it on a brake tester to see if one circuit has less power than the other. Think id get it MOTed and drive a bit to get the friction materials beded in.
Dan
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Jun 15, 2016 11:03:40 GMT
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Wow, so much info, I'll need to let it work into my thick skull... I do now that right now I'm starting to hate my car... No chance ! the collective RR wisdom / experience will solve the problem !! |
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Last Edit: Jun 15, 2016 11:04:11 GMT by westbay
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Wow, so much info, I'll need to let it work into my thick skull... I do now that right now I'm starting to hate my car... No chance ! the collective RR wisdom / experience will solve the problem !! Thanks for that! The community has shown to be very helpful. And kind. |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Well, staying with the positive.....some progress was made yesterday evening. Although without pictures. I reaaly should take some of the last work I have done to the car.
We had some really bad weather around the time my work day ended. That totally took away all desire to go work on the car. I still don't really know why, but the weather has such a huge influence on my will to do things... Luckily while having dinner (sounds fanncy for eating a supermarket Wagner's Big American Texas pizza in front of the telly, lol) the weather improved. The sun actually came out. So at 18:34 I was on my way.
At the barn I switched on the lights, opened the front door for extra light and plugged in my soldering iron. I find the extra light helps lift the gloom from both the barn and my thoughts. I found the wires to solder and prepped them while the iron was heating up. In the mean time I pushed the car forward so both doors could open and took off the cover. With the soldering iron hot, it only took me about 10 minutes of fiddly work to create the cables.
Then I set to fitting them and running the lines forward. Putting them more or less in the places they need to be. Turns out the length of one is just cutting it. But hey, just long enough is exactly that, just long enough!
While the soldering iron was warming up I had taken a few minutes to look at my custom switched audio wire. I taped it up in strategic places so it couldn't short anything and would be routable as well. By now I was ready to fit that back to the car. I ran it back which was easy and then switched my attention to the speaker pods for some reason.
So I drilled holes in the back of the pods to allow the speaker wires access. I crimped connectors on them (turns out previously they were connected only by twisting the wires around the contacts (how's that for being lazy)... oops. I must say that they were never meant to be in there for anything but a test. With that out of the way I set them in place and drilled two holes through each of them so they can screw to the body work. I didn't find any trace of them originally being mounted like that, but with the added weight of the speakers I wanted them firmly in place. I used nice black screws so when covered all will be nicely up to standard. The pods went in pretty well. On the drivers side I had to relocate for the third time the inertia switch for the fuel pump by spinning it around on it's mount. Then the pods were in as well and the speakers were mounted to them in what I consider the desired position.
At that point I tried running the custom switched (to allow for a second input source) audio cable to the head unit, but getting it through the dash was not a one minute job...so as time was passing quickly, I opted for doing the test instead of having the cable run right. So I hooked it up outside of the dash and hit the power button to activate the system (it's on a switch that disconnects everything but the memory). I don't want any chance of it running down my battery. Also I want to be able to play it without any keys in the car.
Well what do you know.... the unit comes on! But no cd-changer input at all, it didn't recognise the unit. So I fumbled with the mass connection, but no joy. Turns out the magazine was partially ejected. It suddenly came up and when pushed down it came to life as it should and had previously. I was also stumped why the carkit hadn't come to life, until I remembered that I not only had to hook up the brain of it, but also connect the screen to it... Duh... So with the radio playing the HU's own source and now also the cd-changer, I activated the bluetooth streaming. Low and behold: the cd-changer played, left/right, front/rear, flick the switch and at least there was sound..... Left/right, front/rear to be exact. I did notice that one channel seems inverted, the mass and feed seem to be switched. But that is a very easy fix. I did notice that the sound quality from this streaming device is not as good as I'm accustomed to, but hey, it works!!
So after tonight I can almost cross all this wibblepoo off the list. The pods are in place, the cable needs two minutes of soldering and then rewrapping and I need to clip the wiring in place. I have clips to glue to the underside of the package tray that can either clip wires or have a hole for a tie wrap to go through.
So I guess next up is gluing the last sill carpet in place on both sides. Then fixing the components in place by bolting them to the car and finishing the wiring. Then comes the hardest part. Fitting the inner sill trims. That will be a hassle. Finding the holes is one thing, but with those wires running behind it's even harder and I need to trim the front edges to fit the pods...
So I guess that will be my Friday afternoon. And that would cross a big job off the list and open up room for the last wiring and dash things...
Still plenty to do in that area though:
- rev counter
- speedo
- front seats
- rear view mirror
- power to the rear
- power to the console
That in itself sounds very doable, but you shouldn't forget that to do this right a large part of the dash will have to come apart again. That in itself will take a lot of time and if I need to trace wires back to the ecu that is never easy either.
I'm not sure if I will start that work saturday or if I'll use saturday to finish the under hood electrics and washer system and air filter bracket stuff. All small jobs that need doing.
Well at least yesterday provided some motivational force and a little boost to the mojo. It may have helped that I wasn't alone and there was someone to talk to even if I wasn't letting me be kept from my work at hand.
I'm trying not to put too much on my plate either, so mojo is less likely to take a hit again. I think finishing the audio and thereby cleaning up the interior is a feasable goal for this weekend. Anything else I get started/done will be bonus.
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Jun 19, 2016 17:36:56 GMT
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Hello Alex,
Hope you don't mind my input as a newbie on this but in my defense, i have taken all week to read this thread and would hate this brake issue to be the final hurdle that cant be overcome!
Were any rubber hoses in the system replaced when the axles were rebuilt or when fitted to the car? Might they have aged and weakened in any way? On the road i see someone didnt have confidence in the brakes and wonder if the combination of new pads and steering alignment might be contributing to this poor feeling. I'm no expert but i have had better brakes after an alignment adjustment, although new tyres were fitted at the same time, but not because they were worn.
Love the mirrors though!
All the very best,
Geoff.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Hello Alex, Hope you don't mind my input as a newbie on this but in my defense, i have taken all week to read this thread and would hate this brake issue to be the final hurdle that cant be overcome! Were any rubber hoses in the system replaced when the axles were rebuilt or when fitted to the car? Might they have aged and weakened in any way? On the road i see someone didnt have confidence in the brakes and wonder if the combination of new pads and steering alignment might be contributing to this poor feeling. I'm no expert but i have had better brakes after an alignment adjustment, although new tyres were fitted at the same time, but not because they were worn. Love the mirrors though! All the very best, Geoff. Hey Geoff! Wow, that shows determination, reading this entire thread! I like words, and being precise in my recollection...did you know, lol?! As for your suggestion... Yes all flexi lines were replaced, but all are new examples, not old stuck that has been on the shelves for years. Visually they do not show defects when under pressure. Although the alignment needs doing and that does mean that the full wheel can move more then it should with all those bolts set and tight, I'd expect to see that in shorter stopping distances, not in brake feel. But time will tell. Alignment and MOT is not too far away anymore. I'm working towards that double time right now. But I have to warn you some things are slow going. As an update to this weeks work, I can carry that as a theme. Slow going. I had to redo some work in the boot. But with that done it was time to fit the subwoofer casings permanently to the car, then add the subwoofers themselves to the casings. I then took a detour and fitted the fuinal piece of bodywork: the fuel filler flap. It took some modifiying and carfull tightening of the bolts to get that to sit pretty! Easy job but a quick 30 minutes gone. I really want to add a latch to the flap ever since I found out that several 80's toyota's had a very simple and clever pull cable system. The granada flap is known to vibrate against it's stopper. Also my car does not have a lockable filler cap and instead of putting one on with an additional key, I'd rather just invisbily lock the flap in place. Another detour took me to fitting the dust caps on the front hubs. They were still off the car and were just laying around in the car. Same as the fuel flap. To prevent damage while doing the next job, I decided to put the both of these things on. It's small stuff but gets me closer to finished anyway. Then I went to do a real curse word of a job. I had wanted to ft the inner sill trims. I'd just glued in the last carpet pieces to the front inner sill left and right. But I have about 5+ cables running along the inner sills on both sides. One side is all the separately fused power to the audio and a speaker wire and on the other all the pairs of amplifier signal leads. Pretty substantial bundles that are hard to cover with the trim. I bundles them to be more manageable and set to work on the passenger side. I got the trim on, and the wires hid, But the trim just didn't sit right. Along the door edge there was a slight gap that I could live with. But at the fron speaker pods the trim just stood from the sill way too far. My speaker pods hava slightly thicker lower edge. I'd taken that into account some, but not enough clearly. No real biggie but that meant I had to trim the moudling. So after all the work to get it in, I took it out again. I then decided it was late enough to warrant cleaning up, rolling the car back and going home... Which is exactly what I did. I took the trim with me and sunday made a qucik modification on both and repainted them. Although the same paint was used, the paint reacted so I'll have to sand and redo this. Sorta bummed about that, but still it's not the hardest job to fix.... So the plan is now to visit the barn wednesday or thursday evening and finish the wiring job on the audio. Friday would then be the day for wiring the seats and opening up the dash. We'll see how the week evolves... At least my motivation wasn't hurt this week, which in itself is a good thing! |
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