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I wish I could explain it better but when the system uses shared coils, like the EDIS, the spark plugs are connected in series.
Stolen explanain from the web;
"Unlike a COP or other single coil per plug system, there is no ground on the secondary winding of the coil. The positive side of the coil is connected to one plug and the negative side to the other one. Current flows from one end of the coil to the first plug, through the engine block to the other plug, and back to the coil through the other plug wire. Both plugs spark at the same time(*). The current flow is "backwards" in one plug. It doesn't matter which plug is the one actually firing a fuel charge. The electrical operation is the same for every spark."
Does that make it clearer?
Gustaf
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,555
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Does that make it clearer? Gustaf Yes I guess it does! |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,555
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I feel a bit stumped really...
Before even touching anything on the car in search of the perfectly smooth running I was used to, I decided I'd just take it for a bit of a drive. Blow out the cobwebs so to speak. Took 3 times to get the engine started and running. It starts every time, but the first two go's it just doesn't seem to get its act together and dies pretty quickly. The third time it's learned how to run (although I've checked and the permanent feed is on the right pin so in theory the ecu still knows what it learned last time).
After that third start, the car backs out of the garage sort of in little bumps. As the engine sort of hunts, you feel the car being propelled in matching jolts. Then when you actually start driving it seems to do so quite normally. Picking up a little less smooth at first acceleration but once a little speed or revs have been made for a bit, pickup and ilde retun to pretty much normal. I made a video of how the car ran after a few minutes driving.
The video shows the engine to be pretty steady, but I'm doubtful if I hear a bit of a misfire in it at times. One thing that I think is different to before, the idle is kept up for a few seconds after blipping the throttle and only then settles at lower rpm. I also felt the car shifted a little later than usual. But that observation may be skewed as I had once deliberately put the car in sports mode and back to eco, but I guess I handn't pushed the eco button wel enough as it was still in sports mode. After making sure it was in eco mode again it shifted more often, but still felt a little late.
Putting the car back in the garage is then a very smoot affair.
Restarting the car 90 minutes or so later and again the idle is off, hunting and throttle response is a little off. Like the timing is off and there's a hint of popping in the exhaust. Revving it up higher and it smooths out for a bit but after a few seconds the idle returns to the hunting mode.
The ecu only shows a p0158 High load in HEGO bank two sensor two code. This usually indicates a faulty lambda sensor. But I wouldn't expect that to have such a dramatic effect.
Although I don't really expect too much from it as the engine ran fine on the current stuff before the loom failure, I'm contemplating throwing on new spark plugs and leads and doing an air leak test with brake cleaner around the intake. I also will try and swap out the lambda sensor to just rule that out and make sure the ecu is not throwing codes anymore.
But really I'm not too sure on how to proceed further. Should I take the intake off and see if the injectors are actually firing and in what patern and without leaks? I just don't really know.
Meanwhile I will be working on adding the other systems back in, as I feel that the issues I have now are not too likely to do with my bit of wiring. Although I can't be absolutely sure of that.
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As you have a known 'problem' I would clear that first.
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I would really advise starting with a set of spark plugs.
Over the years, I have chased way too many issues like this that are just down to fouled plugs - often from running the engine with another fault (like you did). Especially the EDIS sparked V6's we built were always sensitive for fouled plugs, especially when they had been "flooded" and basically that is what happend when you had the ignition wires on the wrong plugs.
My experience is also that fouled plugs may work better when really warm but then default back to misfiring when they cool off.
Gustaf
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,555
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Bit the bullet...
As I'm a bit struggling on going further wuth the diagnostics I took some advice from here for once... I just bought 6 new spark plugs, a set of new spark plug leads as at best they are also 25 years old. I also added some intake gaskets as I had to reuse the existing ones last time, which may have bit me (hunting can be an air issue) and I foresee me lifting the intake again to check the injectors workings soon anyway. Which is why I also bought a fuel system/injector cleaner. And some coolant to bring the level back up to normal (as I was out of the stuff).
I'd like a revision set for the injectors with new seals etc. So I can be sure there's no leaks there either. And I need to check my spares for a Lambda sensor. I think I should have two spares, but I'm yet to find them. Off course I forgot to buy brake cleaner for air leak investigative duties...
So plan of attack is now to see if this weekend I can get myself more motivated to work on the granada. I should then:
- try and search for air leaks
- search for and if found replace the lambda, although thinking of this I might first just try and swap the connectors over, effectively hooking up the post cat bank 2 sensor to the wiring of bank one and vice versa. The code should then swap from bank 2 sensor two to bank 1 sensor two in my thinking... This should point out if it's a wiring issue or a sensor issue.
- swap the plugs and leads
- add the fuel cleaner
- add coolant (and check oil to see if I don't have coolant in there)
- remove clean and reinstall the lower dash pan
- continue on with wiring the other systems back into the car
If new plugs, leads and the cleaner as well as replacing the lambdasensor or inspecting the wiring for it do nothing I think that is the point I'll have to decide to lift the intake.
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Work through it methodically and you'll get there in the end, the sense of achievement when you do is great.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,555
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Work through it methodically and you'll get there in the end, the sense of achievement when you do is great. Thanks! As a DIY mechanic it's sometimes tough deciding which would be the right order to work through. I'm sure I'll get to the bottom of it all, but it's starting to take too long. I thought having found the swapped plug leads that I would be there. Especially given how it ran right afterwards. Now I'm again or still doubting if there's something wrong in my wiring... But, before going there I'll try and work through the easier stuff first. |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,555
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Feb 13, 2023 15:39:04 GMT
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Well, didn't really do much this weekend. After getting back some results from some tests, I just wasn't feeling it. I had to get to grips with the outcome for a bit.
Now as I needed to do something else (take down the xmas lights from the front rain gutter of the house) I had to put the car outside. After doing that jobbie on the ladder I decided to do a quick test with another coil pack. That made no difference.
My new parts were in a day late and that meant they are still boxed and waiting to be used. So I didn't swap the hego connectors under the car for a test. Didn't top up coolant, didn't do the plugs and leads... I did look at the intake with a flashlight and I saw more green gasket protruding than I would expect. But then again some gaskets are over size so it doesn't have to mean anything. The store was out of brake cleaner so that test was a no go as well. After that I had some other chores.
I'll see if I can get myself to do something in the evenings this week. And see if I can get that brake cleaner. I want to get to the bottom of this and move on. It's eating away at me, but when I have the time it's hard to set myself to it. Time for nicer weather! But it should be running by the time the weather gets better so I have to make myself get on with it all.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,555
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Feb 13, 2023 19:20:43 GMT
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Well, new plugs and leads make little difference. That is, if it has a good moment it runs silky smooth, but it quickly reverts back to hunting. So I’m more and more inclined to check out/remove the intake…
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Feb 13, 2023 20:28:24 GMT
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Yep, sounds like that is next.
Also, if it runs good sometimes, and other times not, I would also check any vacuum connections onto actuators (like EVAP things) that can be affected by engine temp and whatever the EEC thinks it wants to do.
Gustaf
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,555
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Feb 14, 2023 14:44:57 GMT
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Question:
If I pull the intake, can I still test the injectors by starting the engine? Will it prevent the injectors from firing as some sensors are missing? As the injectors are below the fuel rail, to see any type of spray I need to take the rails with the injectors out of the heads. I'd like to confirm them firing from the ecu.
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mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 3,047 
Club RR Member Number: 77
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Feb 14, 2023 18:24:47 GMT
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Question: If I pull the intake, can I still test the injectors by starting the engine? Will it prevent the injectors from firing as some sensors are missing? As the injectors are below the fuel rail, to see any type of spray I need to take the rails with the injectors out of the heads. I'd like to confirm them firing from the ecu. My concern would be the engine starting up and heading straight towards the rpm limit on start up with no inlet restriction  Had a 306 GTi-6 do just that years back, and that only had a small hole in the inlet manifold allowing air in past the throttle body. I'd be inclined to try it without the inlet manifold on, and the coil pack disconnected to prevent it firing up at all. It should still inject on cranking that way, and allow you to see what's occurring 🤞 |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,555
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Feb 14, 2023 19:31:37 GMT
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I was planning on doing just that, disconnecting the coil pack.
But to see the injectors doing anything means that they are not in the head anymore which means the engine can’t fire anyway.
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mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 3,047
Club RR Member Number: 77
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Feb 14, 2023 22:02:27 GMT
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With the inlet manifold off, you should be able to see the injectors in place and squirting in to the throats of each inlet 🤔
And also means you don't have to disrupt the fuel rails that way
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,555
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With the inlet manifold off, you should be able to see the injectors in place and squirting in to the throats of each inlet 🤔 And also means you don't have to disrupt the fuel rails that way Duh, why didn't I think of that! It's soooo obvious, lol. |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,555
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On the granada front it has been quiet for too long now. I really should get moving again. I know what I want to do I just can't bring myself to it yet. Hopefully the weather will improve and give me a shot. It turns out it's not so strange that I couldn't bring myself to do much on the granada as over the last few months I was struggling more and more with health issues. As a result I've just been confirmed diabetic. As much as it is a bad thing to have a condition like this, it gives me hope that dealing with this will get me back to a more normal situation phicically. So treatment is underway. I did manage a small miracle though. Timed just right, an add for a revised and running engine loom came up. At a price I couldn't let it go as even if I decide to sell it on, I will not lose money on it. So I bought that. I suspect it's been made by a contact I've "known" for a long time and who is very good with electronics. The loom looks well made and the connectors are all in one piece. Also it was made with some more lenght where the injectors are, so that should be a bonus and prevent damage. This gives me the option after the air leak test and removal of the intake and assesment of the injector workings to put the intake back with new gaskets, but also to change the engine loom once more if I still can't get to the bottom of the issues. As this loom is known good on a running engine (it was removed for me) if it is curse word on mine my issues must be in the self made wiring bit. Anyhow, another route for testing. In other news I'm going to have to ask for your help.... Something happened this weekend. Something that is on the one hand utterly amazing and something to really, really be thankful for...and on the other hand something that made me feel sort of guilty at the same time... Still something I want to share as it shows there are still good people out there. Unfortunately this was an annonymous action so I don't know who to contact directly. What happened was the following: the mail came and in it was an envelop for Alex Eurogranada. In it was a card, on the inside a label in english and on the front an added envelop with a contribution to the cause in it.   I was rather taken aback by this. The gesture in itself was utterly amazing and so kind and thoughtful it humbled me to the core. I write this thread mainly because I enjoy it, to document the build for future reference and also to be able to deal with the highs and lows of such a build and owning a classic car (through your support). To not feel so alone in it all and to gain from other peoples inputs that ultimately help me along with motivation and advice that I can put to use. I know some of you enjoy my tale, but that it would inspire someone to do this I had never guessed. I must admit I'm in two minds about the contribution itself though. I find it hard to put this to words, cause I don't want it to diminish from the fact that someone went through the trouble of commiting this wonderful gesture that in itself is much appreciated. It would have been equally appreciated without the donation though. I've always felt I need to keep my own pants up where finances are concerned. I can't and don't spend money I don't have. As challenging as it is to manage it all, especially the last year with not only corona influences but also the war in the Ukrain driving prices of everything up, I balance it all as much as I can. So taking someone else's hard earned cash for not actually doing anything feels sort of wrong. Sure it ain't always easy, but looking at recent events in Turkey and Syria for instance I feel there are plenty of people who need help more than I do. To summarize:hwhoever you are, thank you for a very kind and lovely gesture. But please contact me so we can talk about it some more between ourselves... |
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mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 3,047
Club RR Member Number: 77
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What a lovely thing to receive eurogranada 😍 If I were in your boots, I'd put it away in the funds for the car, as that is what it was sent to be used on, and be very humbled by someone's kind gesture  (And meanwhile, you can carry on with life and know you have "some funds" for car tinkering guilt free) |
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teaboy
Posted a lot
Make tea, not war.
Posts: 2,113
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Wow that's really nice. As above, whomever sent the donation did so because that's what they wanted to do and they wanted you to have it to help with your car. Don't think you haven't done anything, Alex, you have taken the trouble to give us all lots of interesting stuff to read. You don't have to overthink it. I wish I was as popular... P.S. Lend me a fiver?  |
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