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Jul 16, 2012 18:37:24 GMT
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[/i] front wheel camber will improve grip through corners, although the levels of camber on OMGSTANCED stuff obviously won't.[/quote] Yup. The amount required largely depends on how far the car rolls - you want the outside wheel to be vertical when you're at maximum cornering force. Camber, stiffness, lows and stretch can all assist handling - unless taken to excess. If you're after grip, then you don't take anything to excess. If you're after OMGWTFBBQ moments at car shows and pootling round town at 15mph, excess is where it's at. Live and let live. ;D
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Jul 16, 2012 18:56:45 GMT
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Weeell... I have cheapo coilies, camber and stretched tyres on my e36. Can't says it's made any difference to the way the car handled on -40mm springs,no camber and no stretch. It's just more bumpy.
Maybe I just drive like a pussy!
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Jul 16, 2012 19:36:22 GMT
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the whole stretch/camber thing results in cars with a smaller contact patch than if they had stock wheels half the time Some front wheel camber will improve grip through corners, although the levels of camber on OMGSTANCED stuff obviously won't. That's kinda why I go with the word excessive - and in my understanding, "stance" is not "lowered and optimised", it's "dramatically lowered and extremely adjusted". There's obviously no blanket rule, how your car will react to adjustments depends a lot on the basic geometry and layout. Sweeping genralisation; you can probably lower and stiffen a 10 year old Corsa, and shove wider (even stretched) new rubber on it and find it is massively improved, without much real road time and adjustment. OTOH, messing with a Honda Integra on new stock components probably won't make much improvement over the 'facts' of the car's handling, but may adjust it to suit personal taste and appearance. It's all good. "Stance" is definitely not for me, I freely admit I don't get it and think it's beginning to be overdone
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nas80
Part of things
Posts: 363
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Jul 16, 2012 19:44:46 GMT
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Going slowly cos your wheels are too big and your tyres are too small is stupidity.
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pOG
Posted a lot
SHATNER'S BASSOON
Posts: 1,340
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Jul 16, 2012 19:49:07 GMT
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Quite sad that we've lost some members here tonight on this one. I've always considered Wilko to be a pretty good egg, and whilst HW may have mishandled [and admitted as such, which is to be commended] some of the silly posts / comments that followed prove Wilko's point to a... erm.. point.
Anyway, I digress. As for the subject in hand, yes it's horses for courses. Ultra-slam/camber is always going to win you the 'mad props' from other car enthusiasts. It's basic one-up-man-ship, showing off. It's an instant visual hit, which is why it works on the internets or at static shows (or even in 'drive by' videos or magazine shots done at 25mph). It's whether you crave the adulation of others, or the visceral thrill of flinging a car about, being The Beastmaster so to speak. If you can find a medium between these poles than you have pretty much got the whole thing right. (Though I'll wager there's a great many people with fairly extreme modifications that will sing their praises all day long to cover or justify their faults).
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nas80
Part of things
Posts: 363
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Jul 16, 2012 19:49:27 GMT
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Having a well sorted classic that is immense fun to drive when you want to. Has way more win then driving an car that's unsafe all the time.
Stance - looks good but makes a car curse word in every other way.
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nas80
Part of things
Posts: 363
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Jul 16, 2012 19:50:24 GMT
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If people are rage quitting the forum then LOL frankly.
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Jul 16, 2012 20:02:49 GMT
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Stance seems to be a term which has been hi-jacked. "stance" isn't - or shouldn't - be just a competition to see how low you can get the car and it still just-about move.
Stance always used to be the optimal ride height and balance of ride height front to back. Stance is when it looks mean, not broken.
But there is a very simplistic view of stuff for the masses. Its hard to judge and explain what looks right. So what looks extreme is easier to show and "go one better".
If thats what makes you happy, fair enough. I'm just a pedant when it comes to terminology.
Oh, and now "stance" has become a verb I notice. Thats when its not about "stance" its about getting maximum low for mad props and all that nonsense.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,926
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Stance vs handlingstealthstylz
@stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member 174
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Jul 16, 2012 20:19:58 GMT
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Why do people assume that everybody wants to drive fast and that all stances cars are dangerous? Somebody driving round like a hooligan is equally if not more dangerous than somebody cruising round in a stanced car.
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Jul 16, 2012 20:24:58 GMT
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Agreed
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Garry
East Midlands
Posts: 1,722
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Jul 16, 2012 20:25:20 GMT
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Like any modified car culture idea, it is always pushed to be bigger, better, more extreme than the last guy, in the name of being different.
One sticker turned into two, that turned into covered windows, then stickerbombing.
A bit of camber turned into a lot of camber. A bit of stretch turned into a lot of stretch.
Look back at Max Power in 1997 compared to 2007. Back then it was subtle kits and 16s being big. Modern era was fibreglass everywhere and 22s.
People always want to push boundaries. Nothing wrong with that, we're all car enthusiasts. Rather see something modified than a bland standard eurobox.
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Jul 16, 2012 20:37:36 GMT
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Why do people assume that everybody wants to drive fast and that all stances cars are dangerous? Somebody driving round like a hooligan is equally if not more dangerous than somebody cruising round in a stanced car. Other than the dichotomy presented by, say, extreme camber etc. on a car which has also had significant power upgrades... and even then... each to their own. But if handling is a stated concern, then the look and drama of it are going to be compromised. I like to drive fast, within, in order, the environment and conditions, my own abilities, and then the car's limits. But I'm also nearer to 40 than 14 and am done with pushing boundaries - I still get a buzz out of tackling a twisty road quickly and safely, and like cars which help me do that. So I lean towards functional upgrades. I'm sure if people want to create visual drama there are supporters for that too!
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Jul 16, 2012 20:45:56 GMT
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Quite sad that we've lost some members here tonight on this one. I've always considered Wilko to be a pretty good egg, and whilst HW may have mishandled [and admitted as such, which is to be commended] some of the silly posts / comments that followed prove Wilko's point to a... erm.. point. agreed on all points. anyways. in reply to the op this handles much better then stock. with intelligent engineering rather then bodging, you can have both.
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Last Edit: Jul 17, 2012 5:54:33 GMT by Al Ramone
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,784
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Stance vs handlingDez
@dez
Club Retro Rides Member 34
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Jul 16, 2012 21:06:55 GMT
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Why do people assume that everybody wants to drive fast and that all stances cars are dangerous? Somebody driving round like a hooligan is equally if not more dangerous than somebody cruising round in a stanced car. agreed. most people jump to the conclusion that modifying a car automatically means going in search of increased performance- more speed and racecar handling. yet we live in a country of constant speedlimits monitored my average speed cameras and gatsos, with the plod hiding everywhere there isnt either of the above looking to fill their coffers by bagging you on a radar gun. the days of going fast for thrills and racing your mates are pretty much gone if you want to keep your licence (and indeed your car). 'performance' isnt what it used to be if you cant use it. the whole 'stance' thing, or cars that are all about how they look when stationary/rolling past is a reaction to this, and in a way, a quite sensible one. its standing out from your peers/going 1up in a way that doesnt attact the law and loose you your licence, cos you can 'win' when youre parked up. "every moment frontin and maxin chillin in the car they spent all day waxin leanin to the side but you can't speed through Two miles an hour so everybody sees you"
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Jul 16, 2012 21:16:58 GMT
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Motorsport engineers don't tune suspension until it 'looks right', they tune it until they get the result they were searching for. This is very true, if you look at most old mk2 escort rally cars (Sorry, escorts again, but I know them) they are actually reverse raked because they handle better on bumpy roads that way.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Ryannn
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,421
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Jul 16, 2012 21:22:48 GMT
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Jul 16, 2012 21:28:36 GMT
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Turn your hazard lights on when you see them hoes Drive slow homey If you riding around the city with nowhere to go Drive slow homey Live today cause tomorrow man you never know Ya never know homey might meet some hoes homey Ya need to pump your brakes and drive slow homey
As Stealth and Dez said, we live in a society where driving fast is considered a serious crime with serious punishments, insurance is at an all time high while money is at a massive low, the same goes for petrol prices therefore the costs both monetary and in consequences associated with owning a performance car and using it to it's potential is becoming less and less worthwhile. Doesn't mean the appeal isn't there to own performance cars, but I think people are becoming more and more savvy to the fact that if they're going to own anything that's aimed towards performance or 'race car' use then it's going to be limited to track use only, hence the rise in 'track toy' ownership.
I think the popularity of diesels in the Volkswagen scene is a huge testament to this, a large portion of the cars in daily use within that particular scene tend to be diesels nowadays, yes the performance gap isn't as vast as it was 15 years ago, but the fact that people are going out of their way to own diesels over the GTi's etc is a massive sign that performance isn't as key as it once was. I mean, you can go out, buy you three year old Golf TDi drop it over some nice wheels and your car will look better than the bloke across the road who has forked out more to buy the GTi, more to insure it, spends more on petrol and can't go any faster than you because wherever he goes there's speed cameras.
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Llewelyn_
Posted a lot
Hi everyone :)
Posts: 1,977
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Jul 16, 2012 21:34:43 GMT
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Its not the lowering that destroys the handling, 90% of the time its the over stiff suspension needed to stop the car bottoming out. From what I've seen, 90% of the time it's people thinking that £200 coilovers from eBay are a suitable replacement for OE suspension developed by the manufacturer. That, or thinking that cut springs and standard shocks are a great combination. When it comes to making a car 'handle' - Form should follow function. Motorsport engineers don't tune suspension until it 'looks right', they tune it until they get the result they were searching for. Wheel tuck, rake and ride-height are consequences, not goals. When it comes to 'stance' - the opposite is true, and the resulting car will likely drive like a bag of poop. Post of the thread! There is two ways to look at this... In my mind, "stance" is a biproduct of well set up suspension on a fast-road or race prepared performance car... You only have to look at classic racers and exotica as stock examples of this. The fact that it looks good is basically cool but at the same time, completely incidental. The other way to consider "stance" is as mentioned above, which is thinking of it as a scene itself. Points raised re speed etc above is interesting and spot on IMO. Also, I think the youth of today are so crippled with insurance these days they simply cannot buy stuff like big JDM turbo cars, and genuine performance cars anymore so we have almost gone full circle and are now making bland 20 year old hatchbacks into something unique and special, by adding "stance", sticker bombing and doing all the other fashionable mods. Which is a good thing! Having said that, it's not for me but I can see the appeal!
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"Back off man, I'm a Scientist" - Dr. Peter Venkman
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Llewelyn_
Posted a lot
Hi everyone :)
Posts: 1,977
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Jul 16, 2012 21:36:39 GMT
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willWe are on the same page... But you beat me to it!
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"Back off man, I'm a Scientist" - Dr. Peter Venkman
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