Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 16, 2010 20:36:36 GMT
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and the longest hour ever later.....lol! anyways, time for a bit of an update. been so busy ive had little chance to touch this, or update the thread, but these are bits I got/got done a while ago and havent covered yet. firstly, I got some brake calipers. it was the last peice I needed for the front end really. doing random ebay searches again, I found a pair of BNIB re-con AP 4 pot calipers intended for one of the 3.5v8 powered sherpa police vans/ambulances. they were 15 quid starting bid, tenner postage, but the key factor was the guy selling them had spelled 'leyland' AND 'sherpa' wrong in the tile!! a quick check up revealed that all sherpas and LDV 200s use the same size disc, just different calipers for the different van weights, so I stick in a bid and suffice to say, I got them at the starting bid  when they turned up, I was surprised by them. lets just say they're 'quite large'  yes, thats a normal 'mansize' mug, not a little girly one or anything!! they're about as big as your face. probably too big tbh, but hey, its easier to make brakes crapper than intended, rather than better. anyway they bolt up, are centred on the disc, and fit within my wheels, which is what is important.  next, one part thats been causing me no end of grief is the rear axle. the one on mine was incomplete, missing most of the brakes, plus it had been left sitting around outside without the diff in so all the inside was rusty, which I wasnt looking forward to having to sort out. in the course of trying to source brake parts, I got talking with a chap from the RSR, who gave me some very useful info. he basically said, that as my axle was basically uneconomical to fix. to find a sherpa rear axle (and he didnt even know i was already using the front brakes!!), as they were developed from the same MOWOG axle on the P2 and the series landy, and are near identical. they're the same width, the same bolt pattern, use the same pinion flange at the same distance from the axle centreline, have the same size axle tubes, and are similar ratios. the only rear differences are the brakes are updated to hydro, and the spring saddles need moving to the other side of the axle tube. plus the diff is a little stronger as they're update to fine spline axles rather than the old 8-spline like series landies, which is what P2s had originally. it seems the leyland group werent into changing things or developing new parts if they didnt have to!! he said if they get a P2 or P3 with a knackered axle, its what they use to replace them as they're so similar. so, needing to keep my rear axle 'as stock' for points reasons, but being stuck between a rock and a hard place in actually putting together something that would work and last, I decided if it was good enough for the RSR it was good enough for me, so decided to use a sherpa axle out back. only a couple of days later, I was down ye olde scrappy, and not two minutes before we walked in a LDV 200 had just come in. the tyres were still warm let alone the engine!! swift negotiation got me the entire front and rear axle with wheels for a good price. what shocked me was how clean it all was- it all looked 6 months old not 10 years old!! but what was important was it was a swb low roof minibus, which meant it had the best (tallest) rear axle ratio, and the smallest front brakes. in other words the ones most useful to me. heres the rear axle as it came off-  and the stick with the all important ratio on it, 4.3:1.  |
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Last Edit: Nov 16, 2010 20:41:27 GMT by Dez
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 16, 2010 20:54:27 GMT
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so, a couple of hours with the grinder, hammer and chisel, flapwheel and files saw the axle paired down to what i actually needed- basically just the bare axle, all the brackets on it were redundant, except for i kept the spring saddles, modded them a bit, then cleaned them up to be refitted to the other side of the axle.  heres the little mod to the spring saddles, as you can see they were originally square, but i decided that looked rubbish, and was a dirt trap too. so i cut through the corners and knocked the ends in til they would meet up with the axle tubes, like this-   then cut the corners off,(cut short so youre actually welding into the bit where the 'corner' should be, as it goives a nice rounded edge), and rewelded them-  here they're sat on top of a set of 3" lowering blocks i thought id need (turns out i wont, i think) what it does illustrate though is how the rear axle location is performed.  the holes in the saddle plates are the same size as the allen key head on an m8 allen capscrew, which is conveniently what also holds the spring packs together. so this means the axle is solidly located before you even put a U-bolt around the axle to clamp it down. i absolutely HATE 'universal' lowering blocks that have holes that are too big in them, so they don't positively locate the rear axle. people fit them then wonder why the back end of their car now feels 'vague'. its cos the axle can wander on the springs under load!! make sure your lowering blocks are always a tight fit into the hole in the spring saddle, and the other end is a tight fit onto the peg on the springs. plus if youre doing an axle flip on anything, don't forget to take the pin/bolt through the spring pack out and put it through the other way so the axle can positively locate on it. anyway, rant over, next, problems with springS!! |
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Nov 16, 2010 21:25:03 GMT
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Nice work! Did AP cast the shipping weight of the calipers too? Or is it heavier than 14kg?  |
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 Click picture for more |
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 16, 2010 21:44:52 GMT
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so, axle issues sorted, next problem is the rear springs themselves. first, I put the springs on, and chucked the axle on top of them to see how it sat. when I got it, I knew the rear springs werent put together right, as everything was only finger tight and the shackles were pointing upwards!!   the axle sat where it should wheelbase wise, exactly in between the two holes for the bumpstop to bolt to the chassis, so I thought id got the springs in the correct orientation- one half is 1" longer from the eye to the axle pin. but, even with the 3" blocks in there, the axle only just clears the chassis. something cant be right. after doing much online research looking at the resto projects of people who had stock rover P2s that hadnt had the rear suspension dissassembled and reassembled by someone without a clue, I concluded a couple of things. firstly, the stock axle does hold the rear springs under tension when the rear springs are unweighted. I cant say I like this, but thats how they did it. secondly, the back end of my 'rod is absolutely miles too light for the stock springing to ever work. with the big ol heavy rover body on there, the springs sit almost totally flat- mine certainly don't!! the issue was that was can be seen at the left had side of the above photo- my springs are so uncompressed that the shackle points towards the front of the spring- so much so that when weighted up they want to go up and over rather than backwards!! they should point downwards as a minimum, ideally they be about 7-8 o'clock position. to test my theory, I took the springs off and stripped them down, and refitted them with just the two main leafs. so the weight of just the chassis was enough to compress them. the results were much more satisfactory.  the springs sit much flatter, how they should do, and the rear shackle points the right way. plus if I can get it to sit at that height, I don't need the lowering blocks, as you can see. as the springs are so soft with only two leafs I can bounce the suspension through its full travel, and all is good, no issues with anything getting in the way of anything else. rear shackle now sits like this-  only issue is flattening the spring has moved the axle back, meaning the springs were on back to front after all so, ive got to take it all apart again and swap the springs around. whilst its all out again, I'm going to need to 'tune' the spring to the weight of the car more, now its so much lighter. considering the issues with the rear shackle position, I'm going to opt for trying to leave as many if the leafs in as possible so it stays stiff, but make up a decambering jig and flatten them out to take all the preload out of the spring and push that rear shackle back. thatll be another DezTECH© thread coming up in the near future  these last few shots show it with the pickup bed frame back on so theres a bit more weight on there, and this is about exactly where it should sit height wise when together. the little kink at the current 'back' of the springs is now explained too- it should go at the front for extra clearance around/underneath these-  (which need new washers making up from nylon to go each side of the spring to fill that gap up, to replace the old worn out fibre ones) i also cleaned up all the pivot pins , blasted them out with the airline to make sure the grease galleys arent blocked, filed up the castle nuts all square again, and fitted new grease nipples before they went on. it should have a bumpstop between axle and chassis yet though in case it gets unweighted in use. you can see the springs sit quite flat. you can see my spring saddles i made fitted up to the axle here too. not welded on yet as i have to get the suspension set up before setting the pinion angle.   as well as doing all this, which to be honest has wasted quite bit of build time as its all been messing about trying to figure out what the hell was going on,(but at least i know what going on now, and what else i need to do to put it all right) ive also got the rear wheels sorted. i posted a seperate thread about those, i will cross-post that in a sec. |
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Last Edit: Nov 16, 2010 22:19:30 GMT by Dez
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 16, 2010 22:26:37 GMT
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here the rear wheels. original thread herethere was a discussion thread about these a while back, and I promised a how-to on a pair of rims I need to do for the budget hotrod pickup. well here it is!! heres the thread for those who don't know what reverse rims are, or why you'd need them. so, here's the victim. its some sort of american OEM wheel from the GM stable, in 15x6" size, and 5x5" bolt pattern. judging by the thickness of the steel in it, its a truck rim, or off a heavy-chassis car. the centre are rim sections are both 3mm thick, thats twice what your average uk car rim is!!  its in good, straight, uncorroded condition, and the set of 4 only set me back 50 notes. suffice to say, make sure the rims youre doing this to are in good nick before you start!! but, the issue with them is the offset. as can be seen here, its too close to my pickup bed for me to even be able to fit it on the axle with a tyre on. it needs to go out about 3/4"- 1" to clear it by enough for it to be usable. measuring up, flipping the rim will give me 1.5", which will be perfect. I could probably squeeze another half inch out of it by tapping the centre back a bit in the rim, but it isnt necessary.   now, this type of rim is the more difficult type to do. the ones that have visible bands of weld on the backside as quite straightforward and self explanitory, simply cut long inside the weld, knock centre out, grind off old weld, refit, job done. this is the type that is spotwelded together, which makes them more difficult to get apart. most wheels are held together like this these days, very very few have seam welds as it costs so much more to do. this technique I'm using here also works on the old type rivveted rims as well though so covers lots of bases. this is one of the offending spot welds. theres 8 in total, 2 on each of the 4 sections of the centre that make contact with the rim. (ive drawn round it in tippex so it shows up better)  now, the weld measures about 3/4" by 1", but in my experience they're still stuck together a bit beyond the edge of the spotweld, so you want to go a bit bigger than that- I went 1-1/4" on these, giving me an extra 1/8" each end removed just to make sure. they're nothing worse that drilling the welds out only to find you've done it too small, as you're pretty buggered then, and you'll end up having to resort to a file to widen them out!! first I put a decent centre punch in the centre of each weld-  then, I moved the wheel over to my pillar drill. I realise a pillar drill with a bed that can drop this low is a bit of a luxury to most people, I imagine if most of you have one itll be a bench mounted jobby, but you could do this freehand with a cordless with a bit of care, itll just be a lot harder work! as you can see I dropped the bed right down and set up a 1-1/4" hole cutter above the wheel.  you know the little spotweld drills you get for removing spotwelded body panels? envisage what were doing as a rather manned up version of that, and you wont be far wrong!! heres the first two cut. you need to go straight through both layers as you need to completely remove the bit of steel or you cant get the rim off of the centre, thats what makes this style of rim more difficult and more work.  and heres whats come out- as you can see, very thick steel in these rims!!  with all of em cut, itll look something like this-  guess whats gunna happen next-  one swift clout with the tickling stick (wooden block to stop damage to centre of rim) and the centre is out.  |
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 16, 2010 22:27:40 GMT
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so, time to assess the damage youve done. don't look good does it?   basically, these big nasty holes cut in the centre section need filling up again before we can reintroduce the centre to the rim in its revised position. but, we have a cheat to make filling those big nasty holes up quite easy-  washers!! these are 3mm thick(same as wheel centre) and 30mm diameter. why 30mm? well, whats 1-1/4" in metric children? 31.75mm, or 32mm, more or less. that means with one of these washers in there you get a nice 1mm gap all the way round so you can burn your welds in really nicely. perfect-   so, glue them in good and proper, and fill up the holes in the middle. easier doing that than cutting blanks from scratch it kinda goes without saying, unless youre a pretty darn good welder, you have a capable machine, and youre confident in your work, you shouldnt really be doing this.......  I welded them from both sides and ground back smooth from both sides, for asthetics more than strength as they're plenty strong enough only welded from one side as you're welding into the aforementioned 1mm gap. not really necessary, but I like things to look 'proper'. make sure you don't grind too much off the outside here, or youre centre will be slack in the rim, which will make trueing up later on a nightmare. also, this section is the entire strength of the rim, so you don't want to go removing any more metal than necessary. all schmoooth-   then, I cleaned the centre section up with the knotwheel. makes much sense to do it now whilst its out rather than when its harder to get to-  I did the rim section too. knotwheeled the curse word off it then finished it off with the flapwheel to get a good finish on it as it had a few spots of rust here and there, and it keyed it up properly for paint- I find a knotwheeled finish is a bit too shiny.  |
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 16, 2010 22:28:21 GMT
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well, tried to upload the rest of the pics last night but PB was not having it. here they are now though. next, bolt the centre up to the axle on the car, or any other convenient axle or hub the same bolt pattern youve got lying around. do ALL of the bolts up tight, not just two!!!   then, add the rim. it went on quite easily, just needed light tappage with a soft faced hammer to get it on. too slack is as bad as too tight (or so ive heard), as it wont stay were you put it so is a 'mare to true up. you can see here I used the little red magnetic level stuck on the pickup bed frame to true it up. check for both bob and weave, and adjust accordingly by tapping it in or out with the hammer. this one was dead easy to do, it took less than a minute to get it down to 0.5mm runout.  now, compare to the other side which still has a standard rim on, and see the whole wheel rim is moved out by 1.5"  so, happy with the positioning and trueness of the wheel, I tacked it in place, through the drilled holes, working in opposites across the wheel to make sure it didnt move. one last check for true and its ready to weld properly.  and all welded up. again I worked in opposites across the wheel. these quite large holes give you plenty of weld area to really burn it in and get the two bits stuck together well.  then, a light dressing up with the flapwheel, and they're done. they will want a couple of coats of seam sealer over the welds to make them airtight though as all mig welds are porous. heres the finished article-  and next to a stock rim-  just got to do the other one, paint, and add tyres!!! |
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Nov 16, 2010 22:30:42 GMT
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Love the sledge hammer picture. It needs no words ;D
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RA40tony
Europe
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
Posts: 768
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Nov 17, 2010 21:28:05 GMT
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Great update!!! As always you make me feel very bad for taking 3 days to sort out the levers for the heat exchangers on the karmann...  |
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1979 Toyota Celica GT. Currently Gone.
1975 Toyota Celica ST. 13x7 Allycats, "the stick" applied. 100kW 4AGE... Sold
1963 Karmann Ghia - Lo & Slo, Sold.
1965 VW Fastback - cruising
1953 Oval Ragtop, work in progress...
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 18, 2010 23:22:10 GMT
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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I did a couple of silly little 15 min bits on the other end too. after knocking the grille shell off for the 127th time as it was only propped/balanced on there, I decided it was high time to add some actual mounts to that frame I made a while back. they're so self explainitory I didnt both with in progress pics. I just mitre cut the ends of the box section at 45deg. cut a strip of 2mm plate, drilled a 10mm hole for the bolt, rounded the end, put a 45deg. bend in it so it capped off the end of the tube, weld, flapwheel smooth, done. same on both sides, obvs!  so there now a 10mm bolt holding it down each side. quite solid like that, but to stop it wobbling with any engine vibration, it needs some top stays. it helps if these are adjustable too, so you can preload them to stop them vibrating either. cue some old mechanical brake rods with adjustable ends. basically a long straight(ish, they are 80 years old!) bit of 5/16" rod with an eye one end and a threaded heim the other, perfect!! only slight problem is my box of smaller AF taps and dies went walkies last time I moved workshop, so I cant recut the thread on the now shortened brake rods-cum-rad support bars until I buy some more. ho-hum, I still recon they look really cool, I like to reuse redundant bits in creative ways   now thats all done I can mount up my rad, and my super sexy header tank ive been keeping under wraps for a while now. all will be revealed once its mounted |
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Last Edit: Nov 19, 2010 0:08:05 GMT by Dez
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Great update!!! As always you make me feel very bad for taking 3 days to sort out the levers for the heat exchangers on the karmann... oh i dunno, as jobs go, getting the heat exchangers on a VW chassis to actually work properly with the cables is right up there with platting fog! |
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,950
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Good progress mate, slightly unorthodox alternator position though.
Matt
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RA40tony
Europe
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
Posts: 768
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Nov 29, 2010 12:11:49 GMT
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Great update again... its gonna be such an amazing rod. Checked the heating yesterday and it seems to work. (PS: you building it to sell or use? Can I call shotgun? ) |
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1979 Toyota Celica GT. Currently Gone.
1975 Toyota Celica ST. 13x7 Allycats, "the stick" applied. 100kW 4AGE... Sold
1963 Karmann Ghia - Lo & Slo, Sold.
1965 VW Fastback - cruising
1953 Oval Ragtop, work in progress...
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burns
Part of things
Posts: 373
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Dec 14, 2010 12:31:33 GMT
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That looks great. It certainly makes me appreciate the amount of work that goes into building a rod.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Dec 16, 2010 23:41:47 GMT
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well, time for TONS of updates. yo know i said i like to keep a bit 'in the bag' in regards to how much work ive done on it, so I'm always ahead of the progress reports? well, i could do an update every night for 2 weeks and still not be up to date comments/Qus first though- thing is matt, I'm not actually sure where i am gunna stick the alt, yet!! the mundano one is about as big as ya head, cos it is about 95A to run all the luxurious guff it had. so i may need a scrap yard mission for a really small bodied one, tbh 45A is more than enough. i just need to find something thats got a 5-rib pulley. tony, its being built as 'shop truck' so to keep. hence the engine choice, i need economy from this thing. otherwise it would have had a silly v8, probably something really oddball like a rolls royce one would have been perfect. but i have a habit of spending ages building cars and then getting bored very quickly and flogging them, but ive told everyone to not let me do that this time, lol! burns, you aint seen nothing yet. I'm just getting to the good bit |
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Davenger
Club Retro Rides Member
It's only metal
Posts: 7,272
Club RR Member Number: 140
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Dec 16, 2010 23:46:21 GMT
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twin point injection classic mini alternators are pretty compact.
can't remember how many ribs on the pulley though
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Davenger
Club Retro Rides Member
It's only metal
Posts: 7,272
Club RR Member Number: 140
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Dec 16, 2010 23:51:27 GMT
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,950
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Dec 16, 2010 23:53:25 GMT
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Those mini Daihatsu OAP wagons have tiny alternators, as do Suzuki swifts. Also iirc Honda V6's have a tiny one between the banks of the V.
Matt
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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first task I tackled was the headlights. after mounting the rad frame, it meant I could then attach the headlights to it. I'm doing it this way and having one framework with the rad, header tank, fan, grille shell and headlights all mounted to it as its easier than finding separate mount points for each on a chassis I cant go drilling lots of holes in. plus, it makes getting it all off very quick and easy if I need to. I could spend a whole thread going on about the whys and wherefores of headlight placement, and what I personally think is right, but I wont as itll either bore or annoy you all all ile say, is too low looks rubbish, as does too high, or too far forward, or too far back, or too far in or out. also, too far fore/aft and you wont be able to turn as your wheels will hit them, or obscure them on full lock. so you want to keep them away from the wheels really. generally, if you look at the car dead side-on and they're hidden behind the wheels, you wont be far wrong. I also like to line up the bezel/body join with a similar panel line on the grille shell if possible, as I think this makes it look 'right'. anyway, thats enough of that, and here how I made my massively over complicated brackets for my pre-war vauxhall headlights! the lights themselves are 8" lucas catseye lens items, with the old style solenoid dip mechanism. they're chrome over brass, with side mounts. this pic shows the mounts viewed from below, showing the hidden adjusting mechanism and wiring. they thought about stuff like this even in the thirties  you can also see though, that the mounts are at a squiffy angle, presumably where they fitted the grille shell in their original application. this left me with the predicament of making something that I could fit to mount them solidly to a square steel tube frame, in the right location. so, I took the mount off to make it easier to work with (and stop me breaking the lights, ive already broken one of the ones of these ive got for my A )  this is the first bit I came up with. its a baseplate to bolt to the flange, that allows that 'bar' to stick through. this was a problem in itself as its offset, so took some careful marking and measuring. the flange on the light isnt actually round, but this plate is slightly larger than the mounting flange, so it looks ok.  it fits on like this-  now, to mount it, there is two bolt holes on the flange on the bracket. but to complicate things, one bolt goes through and screws into the cast mounting, the other goes the opposite way through a plain hole and then screws into whatever it used to mount to. so ones simply a case of mark the hole with a pen, the other requires on of these to be made-  it simple a cut down bolt sharpened to a point, and screwed in a good few turns (don't screw it in far enough and youll damage the thread when you hit it). you simply hold the plate against it in the right position, give it a whack with a hammer, and it centrepunches the hole you need to drill for you. simple! so I drilled it, and here it is all fitted. the third hole that has appeared is for the wiring to pass through-  at this point, is a good time to quickly duplicate what youve made, as its miles easier than having to mark out another one- don't forget that before you get carried away and weld things together!! heres the second one, a little metal mighty boosh face painted onto a disc of steel(yes I do work on my own for extended periods of time )-  it thin drilled it out the same as the other one. so now, ive got two of them made, and here you can see ive tacked a nut onto the back of the holes that needed them, so they're now captive- easier than fiddling about trying to get a nut on there in a tight space. if youre wondering why ones painted while and the other isnt, look at the pic above, and you can see to mark the second one I just laid the other on top and sprayed it with white rattlecan primer to mark out the holes. another handy trick  these plate now bolt solidly to the lights, but arent enough to mount them by themselves. thats where those extra bars with the two holes in come in. there do actually mount dead straight and level across the car, unlike the plates ive just made. I'm a bit shy on pics of this bit as I was too busy actually figuring out how I was going to do it, and doing it to take pics. I took this one just before I welded the bits id made together-  the top bit is obviously a bit of the same 1" thinwall box section the rad frame is made out of, cut down to a U-channel shape, the end sliced off at an angle corresponding to the flange, and two 6mm holes marked and drilled in it. these bolts then pass through the bar, and into a piece of 1" wide 1/4" plate, drilled and tapped to m6, so so bolts screw into it and pull it all down together. the gap between the U-channel and the plate was deliberate, its to weld into so I can smooth the weld off afterwards so it just looks like a piece of the box section. miss out a few more steps (welding it all together, smoothing off and cleaning up), and I then refitted the mount back to the light, and offered it up to the car, and tacked it into place. the simply weld straight onto the back of the rad frame, like this-  and because of this it was dead easy to set them up square and level. I did think about cutting the rad frame out and letting them in so they were level with it, but they sat too far forward and the wheels hit them before they got to full lock. they do look a bit 'out on their own' there, but ive isnce fitted the rad and fan, and the way they fit around this really makes sense and makes them look 'right'. ile expain that later though. this is the headlight position I settled for in the end-    which I'm quite happy with. if it looks a bit weird in those pics, its cos of the odd size wheels with odd offsets, my mate leigh who turned up at just the right time to hold them in place whilst I tacked them will attest to them being withing 1/8" of each other position wise ile have to take some more pics now its got both correct front wheels on. |
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Last Edit: Dec 17, 2010 1:03:25 GMT by Dez
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