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Dec 30, 2011 22:34:05 GMT
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I hope this is the correct section, if not, please feel free to move it to where it belongs. I enjoy doing overland expeditions by vehicle, and have used various cars/Land Rovers and the like over the years. Now I am on the search for something throughly practical and cheap to run. The practical side covers being able to carry food and equipment, robust enough to cope with the third world, especially the roads, as well as being able to sleep in it when needed in relative comfort. The cheap to run means better fuel economy then a four wheel drive, cheap to buy and parts being cheap. Reliability is important as is the ability to be able to get fixed anywhere in the world. The use of a car also has other practical purposes too, four wheel drives are extremely valuable in the third world and can lead to a lot of very unwelcome attention. A car is less obvious. I've also found over the years that a true off roader is not usually required in many of the places you go, indeed most locals make do with a 2WD even in 'off road' conditions. However some under-body protection and raised ground clearance would be beneficial. After much thought and reflection, I've narrowed my choice down to 2 vehicles. 1) Peugeot 405 Estate -Diesel 2) Subaru Forester - Petrol I'm thinking about putting a modest suspension lift on the 405. Plus points for the 405 include, easy 50mpg, good reliability, lots of room. I'm familiar with peugeot diesels and have enormous respect for them, as well as knowing the basics and when they're running 'right. Good parts availability. Plus points for the Subaru, no need for a suspension lift, 4WD (but not a big off roader) Japanese reliability. I'm tempted with both, however am not very familiar with the Subaru, can anyone offer their opinion please? I'm looking at the 1997/1998 models. Obviously it won't give as good MPG but if it has other advantages over the 405, then I'd be happy to take the hit. Any advice on the above would be much appreciated Ian
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1971 Range Rover 1977 Jeep Cherokee 1982 W123 Merc 230CE 1992 Peugeot 405 TD Saloon 1995 Peugeot 405TD Estate (having a rest) 1990 Peugeot 205 CJ - For Sale 1985 Peugeot 305 GTX 1979 Honda Accord MK1 1995 BMW E34 TDS 1994 BMW E34 TD 1998 Mercedes 320 CLK
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speedy88
Club Retro Rides Member
"Nice Cortina mate"
Posts: 2,296
Club RR Member Number: 118
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Dec 30, 2011 22:39:42 GMT
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I think you're onto a winner with the 405, can't think of anything that'd be a better allrounder tbh. If you fancy something a bit more modern though, mazda demio? Not bad on fuel and pretty damn reliable and comfortable.
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markbognor
South East
Posts: 9,970
Club RR Member Number: 56
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Dec 30, 2011 22:43:06 GMT
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crazymonkey
Posted a lot
ummm....what was I doing again???
Posts: 1,981
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Dec 30, 2011 22:43:41 GMT
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405 is a brilliantly reliable car that would make a great choice. I've always wanted to do that sort of thing as well so have considered these many a time.
something along the lines of a vauxhall astra diesel estate the old ones with the isuzu engines, these are generally really reliable, easy to get bits for and a great alternative (in my opinion) to the 405.
I'm not clued up on foresters so much but don't know about parts accessibility/price though imagine they would be more scarce and expensive than the astra/405
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whoever said dogs were man's best friend....obviously never heard of cable ties
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speedy88
Club Retro Rides Member
"Nice Cortina mate"
Posts: 2,296
Club RR Member Number: 118
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Dec 30, 2011 23:03:56 GMT
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I was gonna drive to asia a couple of years ago when petrol was a bit cheaper so a Volvo 240 was viable as a choice. Shame I didn't go in the end but I'm going to make sure I do something like it before I'm too settled.
There's a mongolia charity rally where you buy an ambulance and drive it there to donate (Theres a shortage of ambulances) which I REALLY want to do. Work dictates a little at the moment but in a couple of years it's deffinatly something I'd quit a job for.
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skinnylew
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 5,617
Club RR Member Number: 11
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Dec 30, 2011 23:10:46 GMT
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My friends planned a road trip from Cape Town back to England a couple of years back. They first bought one of these with a view to prepping it themselves: was an absolute beast!! We once squeeze 10 in on the way back from the pub lol but they found this ready prepped and shipped that out instead: They coped with most terrain faultlessly (this was only one of a handful of stuck photos) but when they got into Kenya they were robbed at gun point and then again in a touristy part robbed at machine gun point in a bar (almost having their wedding rings chopped off at machete point) They reckoned going through Sudan would have been safer (he's Zimbabwean and she grew up in Nepal so no strangers to surviving!) They had it shipped back after that and flew home! It depends where you are planning to go really, I'd say Forester for 4wd and raised height but parts would be a pain to get hold of i'd imagine!
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Dec 30, 2011 23:38:06 GMT
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Wow 5 replies already, thanks everyone! ;D I grew up with older Peugeot diesels and have had a 205 and 405 saloon, both diesels (Still got the 405) which have been fabulous. I drove the 205 overland to South Africa and it never missed a beat. However as I continue to do these trips, I crave a little more comfort when sleeping (I'm very tall) and the ability to lie down to sleep is what I need, which is why I'm not thinking of using the 405 saloon and getting an Estate. skinnylew:- they're great photos, I LOVE the VX and the Amazon Land Cruisers. I have an HJ60 (along with other 4WDs) and would love to use them for these trips all the time, but the MPG makes it unrealistic unfortunately I will continue to use them for more specialised and 'extreme' trips that involve proper off road terrain, but for the vast majority of a trip, have found it's not necessary (time constraints and all that) markbognor:- Is that your Mercedes? Great pictures! 405 is definately ahead at the moment! Ian
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1971 Range Rover 1977 Jeep Cherokee 1982 W123 Merc 230CE 1992 Peugeot 405 TD Saloon 1995 Peugeot 405TD Estate (having a rest) 1990 Peugeot 205 CJ - For Sale 1985 Peugeot 305 GTX 1979 Honda Accord MK1 1995 BMW E34 TDS 1994 BMW E34 TD 1998 Mercedes 320 CLK
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I have much experience with sub-saharan Africa. Merc diesel. Renault, Suzuki. Shogun, old landy. Mk 2 Golf, Mitsi L200 Scooby is a no-go - they don't have them out there. The best i've seen out there was a Unimog with a caravan shell mounted on the back - German couple - putting themselves out as bait. Have a pic of Bar Street in Senegambia. MMMMmmmm Marti, Norks like pool balls in football socks.... Edit: If you go to the Gambia, I can get you cheap digs.
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'83 GTM Coupe. 4A-GE Powered '00 GTM Libra Auto. Ick. '71 Detomaso Pantera. Current Resto '89 GMC Safari Tow/Kip bus '05 SAAB 9-3 Daily '71 Siva Moonbug. Not even contemplating resto yet.
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MonzaPhil
Posted a lot
Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought
Posts: 2,456
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I have an uncle (possibly deceased) in Nigeria, apparently.. but how about a 505?
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This is now a clicky linky!
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If the gearbox fails on a 405 in Africa, with a bit of searching its possible to find a replacement. If the box goes on a Subaru, that's the end of your trip right there. A good friend of mine took his VW t4 to Africa earlier this year and it suffered a catastrophic engine failure, leaving them stranded in a tiny wee town at the mercy of the one local mechanic. Unable to find any bits locally, he had to get a load of spares sent by fed-ex, which cost several hundred pounds for the postage alone. The whole episode totally gashed their trip and almost bankrupted them. His advice is to buy what the locals drive - diesel peugeots or diesel mercs. Avoid anything with too much engine management electronics.
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1986 Panda 4x4. 1990 Metro Sport. 1999 Ford Escort estate.
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hatari
Part of things
Posts: 24
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Dec 31, 2011 11:55:06 GMT
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405 has got to be my choice. Better Still would be the 504! I would stay away from the forester as parts for these cars are hard to come across. From experience (African Mainly) - the 405 is still widely available. www.londoncapetownrally.com/entries.html Above link - I am sure you already seen it - but gives you an idea of why people have a similar choice. My only advise would be 'KEEP IT SIMPLE'. Any mod on a car means there is one more thing that is not available in a different Country. Good-Luck and keep us posted!!
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Dec 31, 2011 16:06:44 GMT
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Thanks everyone! I would love a 504 and 505 (I'm a bit of a Peugeot lover) but prices are creeping up! The 405's are pretty darn cheap at the moment, if somewhat hard to come by.
Keeping it simple is one of the reasons for wanting to go for an older estate car, the MPG is another.
I think after reading the posts, the 405 is the one I will go for, it's my initial choice as well. Once I acquire one I will keep everyone posted on how the project progresses!
In the meantime, keep the thoughts coming in!
Ian
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1971 Range Rover 1977 Jeep Cherokee 1982 W123 Merc 230CE 1992 Peugeot 405 TD Saloon 1995 Peugeot 405TD Estate (having a rest) 1990 Peugeot 205 CJ - For Sale 1985 Peugeot 305 GTX 1979 Honda Accord MK1 1995 BMW E34 TDS 1994 BMW E34 TD 1998 Mercedes 320 CLK
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Dec 31, 2011 16:38:30 GMT
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With the 405 be careful of the turbo version. I don't know if there is more than one type but a friend bought the same and nightmare to source a new rad (no secondhand for they type he had) and hoses. Last thing you want is to buy a high spec / powered version when nil sold in countires you plan on visiting so nil spares available. As others say - get what the locals drive and if that is the base model / non turbo then that is the model to consider.
Paul H
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Dec 31, 2011 17:26:22 GMT
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I can't remember seeing any Subarus in the bits of Africa I've been to. That could be a real dead end.
Not sure how rugged they are but the 306 Sedan and wagon were used everywhere as taxis. They seemed to be the new 'rural' multi-role machine, though the mighty 504s and 505s were still very much in evidence.
Where are you starting from? Given the how unusual we are in using RHD motors, maybe get a left hooker 505 diesel and prep that? I'm assuming an LHD 505 or 504 would be cheaper from one of our near neighbours in Europe than an RHD one. In the event that the worst happens and you need to sell it locally you won't be stuck with a car nobody will buy.
Someone mentioned the Shogun earlier. I saw loads of them in North Africa. The different name badges and mixes of left and right hand drive suggest that they end up there from all over Europe and Japan. I mean the series ones and early series two models with the flush metal wheelarches, before they started getting covered in plastic.
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Would avoid the scooby - if it ran faultlessly then great idea but otherwise you'd struggle and be left with a vehicle you've little hope of repairing.
But enough negatives - definitely say Mercedes TD/TE and the yellow one posted earlier in the thread is the leading example - it's been to sub saharan africa and the middle east.
Peugeot 504/505 if you can find one - have looked on Autoscout etc and they are thin on the ground even in Europe - but not for nothing did they earn the reputation as the desert taxi of choice!!
May I suggest a Toyota Hiace(or does this take the size bigger than you'd like) but other Toyota products are quite well supported on the continent..
Me...I'd take the big risk and use Wuvvum Metrocab with the NIssan engine that's up for grabs in the For Sale section..... ;D
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2014 - Audi A6 Avant 3.0Tdi Quattro 1958 - Chevrolet Apache Panel Truck 1959 - Plymouth Custom Suburban 1952 - Chevrolet 2dr Hardtop 1985 - Ford Econoline E350 Quadravan 2009 - Ovlov V70 2.5T 1970 - Cortina Mk2 Estate 2007 - Fiat Ducato LWB 120Multijet 2014 - Honda Civic 2.2 CTDi ES
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+1 for the 405.
I did the 2nd Ply-Dak about 8 yrs ago. We were in a LR2A, our mates in a Cit BX estate (another option if you can sort the suspension - same XUD engine as the 405 of course).
We ended up in a mini-group with a little Lancia (Y10?) and a 405 estate. From distant memory I think they had a wheel bearing go, but otherwise survived well.
I think the LHD is good advice as well. I know Gambia are getting very tough on RHD cars coming into the country; if the worst happened and you had to abondon it there you could face a HUGE fine. The same is true of Senegal.
I'm sure you've consider this, but what about availability of spares like tyres? We are used to there being a well stocked tyre dealer in every town. I'm guess that is less true in Africa and Asia. Having something that uses the same size wheels and tyres as the locals could be a life saver!
Again, I'm sure your aware but fuel quality might be an issue. The 'petrol' in Mauritainia (sp?) was more like parafin! The low compression Landie didn't care but some of the more modern stuff really struggled!
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I'd take the big risk and use Wuvvum Metrocab with the NIssan engine that's up for grabs in the For Sale section..... ;D I'm not sure it is such an enormous risk. It's cheap enough to start with and already more rugged than a 'normal' car. A bit of homework on the engine might reveal more about other applications and there's all that space in the back for living in. Body panels would be a nightmare, they're hard enough to get cheaply in the UK.
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Diesels can be problematic in some countries. It can be hard to get hold of and is often way more expensive than petrol due to governments taxing it huge amounts to combat smog pollution. It is probably worth looking into the fuel situation before you go anywhere. If you drive carefully there should be no need to make any mods. A sump guard might give you some piece of mind but is really not necessary. Peugeots seem to be everywhere and were produced under licence in a lot of far off countries so I would imagine that spares would be very easy to get hold of. I drove a totally standard and heavily overloaded Suzuki Swift hatchback across the Pamir highway (which had been mostly washed away), and then on to Mongolia, and had no real problems.
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Well I've gone and bought a 405 Estate. No MOT on this one, previous ran out in March. It seems a really tidy example with a little TLC needed to get everything 100% but with the work I'll be wanting to do on it anyway to prep it as an expedition vehicle, this is no bad thing. It also comes with loads of spares, which is a bonus! I pick it up next month where I'll be taking it straight for an MOT just to see what it fails on, watch this space..... Ian
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1971 Range Rover 1977 Jeep Cherokee 1982 W123 Merc 230CE 1992 Peugeot 405 TD Saloon 1995 Peugeot 405TD Estate (having a rest) 1990 Peugeot 205 CJ - For Sale 1985 Peugeot 305 GTX 1979 Honda Accord MK1 1995 BMW E34 TDS 1994 BMW E34 TD 1998 Mercedes 320 CLK
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good call on the pug, pretty much every taxi in africa is either one of these or a big old merc (cant remember the name)
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