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Dec 29, 2011 18:54:07 GMT
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I could use some advice - i've never got into this type of repair before. First pic. Pantera front right hand side (Pass side as it is LHD) front inner arch. Kink in top leg under "a" Well squished leg under "b" Squished section above "c" and the vertical member to the left of "c" should be straight and vertical. Second pic close up on "a" Third pic close up on "b"    Any input appreciated. |
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'83 GTM Coupe. 4A-GE Powered
'00 GTM Libra Auto. Ick.
'71 Detomaso Pantera. Current Resto
'89 GMC Safari Tow/Kip bus
'05 SAAB 9-3 Daily
'71 Siva Moonbug. Not even contemplating resto yet.
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,960
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Dec 29, 2011 23:41:32 GMT
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How does it measure up compared to the other side are any mounting points where they should be?
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It's well off.
From a bit of googling, it needs jigging.
Drivers (LHS) looks straight.
It looks like it's had a hard life, then bodged for sale. All down the RHS is bent and bodged.
I bet I've had 20kg of filler out of it.
Darned Californians with access to cheap Mexicans.....
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'83 GTM Coupe. 4A-GE Powered
'00 GTM Libra Auto. Ick.
'71 Detomaso Pantera. Current Resto
'89 GMC Safari Tow/Kip bus
'05 SAAB 9-3 Daily
'71 Siva Moonbug. Not even contemplating resto yet.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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sorry if this sounds a little simplistic, ive no idea of your abilities but this is how id go about it, and I do this kind of thing all day every day.
remove all the brackets, get on bench and hammer straight. drill all the spotwelds out of the crumpled box section and remove, cutting it back to were its stright and solid. then fold/fab up a new section to replace, its not worth trying to do anything with that one.- I assume you can work off the other side then make it a mirror image? its this bit that adds all the shape and strength to that area, so its the bit that matters.
get the inner wing as straight as you can before fitting the new box section, should be quite easy as you have access to both sides with hammers and dollies. then fit the new box using the opposite side for reference with placement, and pull/bash the inner wing to meet accordingly. you can then refit the strightened up brackets. id jig to do this, but remember a 'jig' can be as simple as a couple of bits of box section welded together to sit against known reference points, with holes drilled in the the brackets bolted to. youd got that big bit of box bolted across the lower sus mounting points so it should be fairly striaghtforward to work something off the other side and mirror it.
if youre skilled at metal, and with good neat welds and seam sealant, youd be hard pushed to tell its been done.
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Last Edit: Dec 30, 2011 1:24:40 GMT by Dez
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Many years ago I had a Cortina jigged to straighten a kinked chassis leg by M&M at Longton. They did an amazing job and impossible to tell ever damaged. We presented them with just the stripped front end and they then just did the jig aspect leaving the rest for us to paint / refit. Wasn't cheap though and car was only a few years old so suspect this might be beyond simple straightening. I'd therefore say, as Dez, it'd probably be easier to fabricate a new section and weld in rather than straighten.
BTW I've a (Machine Mart) body ram kit if you need to borrow to push any aspect back into position.
Paul H
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Dec 30, 2011 12:23:29 GMT
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Dez, Thanks for that - it was exactly the type of input I was looking for.
Paul, I might just take you up on that offer.
I'll have to get that drivers wing off and have a proper looksee
Cheers.
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'83 GTM Coupe. 4A-GE Powered
'00 GTM Libra Auto. Ick.
'71 Detomaso Pantera. Current Resto
'89 GMC Safari Tow/Kip bus
'05 SAAB 9-3 Daily
'71 Siva Moonbug. Not even contemplating resto yet.
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Dec 30, 2011 16:09:03 GMT
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Good luck Pantera dude.
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Koos
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Dec 31, 2011 22:52:36 GMT
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PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get Profesionla advive just removing everything like dez has said IS NOT the best advice to give ANYONE I am proffesional panel beater and Garage owner and all I can say is
IT NEEDS A JIG...........NO OTHER WAY
WHY do i say this well any metal that moves WILL and there is NO arguing on this one take other areas with it.The Chasis lleg is welded to the body so how are YOU going to hammer that straight.IT deof need a JIG NO OTHER WAY
Dave
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Whoa Dave, I appreciate your input, but quietly I am:
Degree in Automobile Engineering - plus ex Rolls Royce BIW Engineer, and ex Foden Prototype Engineer
The problem is the complete lack of numbers from Detomaso from which to take a datum.
I am aware of the possible need for a jig, but if the numbers aren't available, what would I be stretching it to?
To get you back on side, input on how you would decide which dimensions or pickups would be the poignant ones would be appreciated.
If this was 20 years ago - before the 'net I would have done it purely by measurement - but nowadays I can appreciate specialist input. That's you - i'm just looking for guidance.
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'83 GTM Coupe. 4A-GE Powered
'00 GTM Libra Auto. Ick.
'71 Detomaso Pantera. Current Resto
'89 GMC Safari Tow/Kip bus
'05 SAAB 9-3 Daily
'71 Siva Moonbug. Not even contemplating resto yet.
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Antone with an ounce of common sense and who KNOWS what they are Doing on a jig would NOT need dimensions...Why do I say this well if you are a so called engineer you wouldnt ask shuch a stupid question.You don't need dimentiosn to know how much to straighten something you have shuch things as WINGS and a Bonnet it is NO good at all looking at it the way you are.It will be OBVIOUS to a TRAINED eye if the door gaps wing gaps bonnet gaps are correct.But as you are obviously not a true Proffesional person that is wy you ask for advise.Have you NEVER heard of a drop test,erm how about tracking/camber castor angles these can all be checked and MEASURED But as a NON trade person then it will go straight over his head.
If you are a so called Automobile engineer well you are not a good one are you reason I say htis is simple you would havae spotted this straight away and NOT removed all the panels before addressing the situation you are in.
BEST OF LUCK YOU SURE ARE GOING TO NEED IT
Dave
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Antone with an ounce of common sense and who KNOWS what they are Doing on a jig would NOT need dimensions...Why do I say this well if you are a so called engineer you wouldnt ask shuch a stupid question.You don't need dimentiosn to know how much to straighten something you have shuch things as WINGS and a Bonnet it is NO good at all looking at it the way you are.It will be OBVIOUS to a TRAINED eye if the door gaps wing gaps bonnet gaps are correct.But as you are obviously not a true Proffesional person that is wy you ask for advise.Have you NEVER heard of a drop test,erm how about tracking/camber castor angles these can all be checked and MEASURED But as a NON trade person then it will go straight over his head. If you are a so called Automobile engineer well you are not a good one are you reason I say htis is simple you would havae spotted this straight away and NOT removed all the panels before addressing the situation you are in. BEST OF LUCK YOU SURE ARE GOING TO NEED IT Dave Get the hell off your high horse mate, that's an incredibly rude way to speak to someone for simply questioning your reasoning. Surely as the worlds leading expert on this it would have been easy for you to simply explain to him his error rather than resorting to personal insults? I don't doubt you know what you're doing with this, and I'd tend to agree with you about needing the get the shell dimensionally strait before replacing panels, but this isn't a ford focus. You say to straiten it with reference to the body panels, but where do you suppose the OP is going to get body panels that are guaranteed dimensionally perfect for a low volume super car that's been out of production 21 years? I'd have suggested it would be safer to in fact ensure that the chassis is as intended, and then making the panels fit the chassis in the event of any alignment issues when fitting the bodywork. The question is, how do you ensure the chassis is how it's intended to be? I'd tend to agree with Dez in this case and use the opposite side as a reference assuming it isn't also damaged. The positioning of the suspension mounts are obviously of importance, but again, if the opposite side is intact and as it should be, then some measuring of diagonals will allow the mounting point to be positioned square. I'd also like to point out that this: "any metal that moves WILL and there is NO arguing on this one take other areas with it" is quite frankly utter curse word. OK, other areas may be effected, and the OP should check that the damage does not extend beyond the obvious visible areas, but what you say is only true in terms of instantaneous strain levels. Once the accident that caused the damage was over, any metal that was not loaded beyond it's elastic limit will return to its previous shape/position, and only areas loaded to levels causing plastic deformation will remain altered. |
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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well put robin. it would be my opinion youd have to be criminally insane to take advice from or even try to converse logically with someone so unbelievably arrogant anyway. it sounds like ive worked on a few of the cars hes straightened out in the past by the sounds of it- perfect panel gaps but suspension mounting points inches out because no-ones bothered to measure and compare where they are to where they're supposed to be  panel gaps and alligment are of a much lesser importance to a good straight, strong chassis with correct geometry, in ALL cases. |
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Last Edit: Jan 1, 2012 21:50:52 GMT by Dez
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Robin and Daz now you are showing how ignorant you really are and how little KNOWLAGE of a motor car,Robin for you to say that it is utter curse word what I am talking about with regards to metal not moving is laughable.
A classic repair that I have just done was a low impact one on a Mk2 escort front leg moved 20mm accross nothing much eh well the result was 3 hours pulling and jiging to get the bulkhead moved back into position,to the trained eye there was nothing wrong with the bulkhead but to me it was BENT.I would hazard a guess looking at the pictures there is serious movement in the shell.YES I agree that there are NO dimension for it SO WHAT you don't need them.
Robin yes it is possible to do what you said ref suspension points being wrong but I would harard an educated guess these were don't either bu BODGERS who THINK they can straighten cars and believe you me there are loads out there,and from what I have seen on this forum boy oh boy the std of welding alone frightens me.A lot of which is blamed on a garage.
As for you saying Dez you would be criminally insane to take advise form well it proves to me that YOU are an IGNORANT so and so
Robin also I don't doubt at all that the OP has not got some panel of some form to put back on the car or he wouldnt have started the restoration.
What I just cant comprehend is someone of so called qualifications does not do what to do ....but I suppose in this world of ours Peper qualifications are as good as Bog Paper when it come to the repair and restoration of cars
Dave
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Robin for you to say that it is utter curse word what I am talking about with regards to metal not moving is laughable.... No it isn't, it's correct, because what you said is utter curse word. If a material is not deformed past its elastic limits, it will return to its original orientation once the loading is removed. This isn't something you can argue with, it's just fact. During an accident forces are distributed through the chassis unevenly, the chassis is made from metal of varying thickness and shape, as a result areas of the chassis will not see loading high enough to deform them beyond their elastic limits. You may have meant "if one part of the car has bent, it's likely that other parts have deformed too" which would be completely fair, but to say that with 100% confidence other areas will have also bent is simply not true, if the part that's bent is weaker than the areas around it, or has been subjected to higher loadings, then it's completely possible for an isolated section to be deformed. Robin also I don't doubt at all that the OP has not got some panel of some form to put back on the car or he wouldnt have started the restoration. I don't doubt he has panels for it, but I do doubt whether those panels are strait enough to be used as a reference to straiten the chassis to. Body panels are often made to tolerances that wouldn't even be close to acceptable for structural parts, and therefore unless you know the quality of new panels, or the history and original quality of original/2nd hand panels being used, it would be a huge gamble to use them as reference points to align the cars chassis. |
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No it isn't, it's correct, because what you said is utter curse word. If a material is not deformed past its elastic limits, it will return to its original orientation once the loading is removed. This isn't something you can argue with, it's just fact. During an accident forces are distributed through the chassis unevenly, the chassis is made from metal of varying thickness and shape, as a result areas of the chassis will not see loading high enough to deform them beyond their elastic limits. You may have meant "if one part of the car has bent, it's likely that other parts have deformed too" which would be completely fair, but to say that with 100% confidence other areas will have also bent is simply not true, if the part that's bent is weaker than the areas around it, or has been subjected to higher loadings, then it's completely possible for an isolated section to be deformed. Read more: retrorides.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=techni&action=display&thread=119332#ixzz1iFVRzEDQJust proven to me your IGNORANCE of how cars bend in accidents HAVE IT YOUR OWN WAY Been in the trade far to long to argue with a peroson who thinks he can teach mother to suck eggs......TOTAL IDOT Dave |
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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You clearly don't understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying that the rest of this guys car is definitely straight, in fact as I said, I agree that it would be important that the OP checks that the rest is in fact straight. What I'm saying, is that because one part of a car is bent, you can't guarantee that other parts also are.
Dropping the fact you'd been in the trade for a while actually means sod all, so please stop using it as a reason to ignore other peoples input and assume your superiority. My main issue with your posts isn't actually the factual content, which isn't too bad, just not completely in line with the circumstances, but you're advising the OP to be overcautious rather than under-cautious, which I think is fair, and a good idea. My problem is with your attitude that anyone who questions you must be an idiot, and jumping to personal insults about a persons intelligence or knowledge of a subject.
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Robin yes it is possible to do what you said ref suspension points being wrong but I would harard an educated guess these were don't either bu BODGERS who THINK they can straighten cars and believe you me there are loads out there, You haven't told us yet what your qualifications are? Bearing in mind so far the people you have insulted and belittled all have qualifications and experience in relevant fields, I feel it would be prudent for you to qualify some of the sweeping statements you have been making. IMac, IPhone, ITunes I've heard of but not an IDOT. Unless of course you meant 'idiot', in which case I should think you should learn to spell before you use such terms; and also don't be surprised by the fact that your posts have been reported. |
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penrhynrallycentre - tell us how you'd do it then. Step by step. In perfect detail. Without being condescending
You're not giving any other reasons to backup what you're saying (which is what would help us listen to you) other than writing in capitals, that you've done it for X amount of years
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You're like a crazy backyard genius! |
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Just proven to me your IGNORANCE of how cars bend in accidents HAVE IT YOUR OWN WAY Been in the trade far to long to argue with a peroson who thinks he can teach mother to suck eggs......TOTAL IDOT Is there any chance that instead of just assuming I'm a person of low intelligence you could explain in what way I'm wrong, and importantly, explain why I'm wrong? ( if I am) That way people reading this thread may be able to gain something from your years of experience, rather than simply having to read though a series of uninformative insulting posts. Which would be nice for everyone. |
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Crikey, this one has got interesting.
I don't claim to know anything about body repairs so it's not my place to say who is right and who is wrong but what I can see is some people trying to find a solution for a problem using intelligence, knowledge, mutual respect and discussion and penrhynrallycentre being rude to people whilst missing the point in the middle.
Penrhynrallycentre, I'm sure you have something potentially useful to add here as you clearly have some experience but unless you lose the attitude (and perhaps, the blinkers) it's not going to be heard. Please either join in respectfully or leave the others to it. Thank you.
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