|
|
Nov 30, 2011 16:44:43 GMT
|
Question was asked and not answered in a now-locked thread on vehicle appropriation...
Thought it was worth mentioning here as some people may genuinely not know. The V5C (old V5, old log book) is NOT and NEVER has been proof of ownership. That is why it says "Registered keeper"
In order to prove you OWN the vehicle you need a cash receipt or invoice with proof of payment for that vehicle. THAT is how you prove you own it.
Now obviously for you to legally own the car the person selling the car to you must have been legally entitled to sell it to you. You need to assure yourself that this is the legal owner of the car on an appropriate agent acting on behalf of the owner, who may not be the person named on the V5C (for example if its a company car)
If you are REALLY lucky you will have a string of cash receipts or invoices which go all the way back to the time the car was supplied new. Astoundingly I have this paperwork trail in place for at least one car I own which was sold new in the 1960s, and for another albeit with a couple of gaps when it changed hands in the 1990s a couple of times...
In some countries and some US states you have to get cars signed over to you by a solicitor or notary public or at least with a trip to the town hall. Its like selling a house, their documents are like title deeds rather than a registration document.
Lein sales are different. I just came across a classic car which has failed its MOT and the owner won't come pick it up from the garage or pay the test fee. The garage will seek to dispose of the car to recover their costs of MOT, storage, chasing the owner, etc. by selling it on. This is where issues of ownership can be changed without the registered owner's consent but only if the law on seized goods is followed to the letter. You can still get burnt with these kinds of deals so make sure everything is 100% legit.
Anyone with advice on how to acquire a car seized by a garage for non-payment without leaving yourself open to the previous owner coming back to you would be welcomed.
|
|
1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
|
|
|
86mike
Part of things
Posts: 453
|
|
Nov 30, 2011 16:51:47 GMT
|
If you have a receipt from the previous keeper and the car was not reported as stolen when you purchased it, I would say you would be hard pressed to get any more proof than that.
How would you prove to a court that you own half the things in your house?
|
|
Last Edit: Nov 30, 2011 16:54:29 GMT by 86mike
|
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2011 16:57:08 GMT
|
in this case i have only ever owned 1 out of my 7 cars so far :/ oops...... haha
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2011 16:59:07 GMT
|
The previous owner has to be the lawful owner or their representative or say this happens...
I steal/ring/fraudulently acquire a car, sell it to Benzboy and he sells it to you. The original owner at the point I got it illegally still owns it even if you legitimately purchased it from Benzboy. I'm not using him as an example because he handles stolen goods or anything but you get the picture.
I know the law is different in the USA but it is based on English Common Law so most of their precedents are similar. A guy bought a 1968 Corvette and went to ship it home to Sweden. Turns out the car had been stolen in 1969. Wow. Port Officials/Customs Officers/Whoever managed to discover this and it was returned to its original owner! Not sure if that would be caught be a statute of limitation here but I've heard of non-car stolen goods being returned to their owners after decades lost in the UK (a story about an antique clock comes to mind)
I would say 99.9% of the time if the seller has the V5 then you are good to go. Especially if they've owned it a long time.
|
|
1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
|
|
bortaf
Posted a lot
Posts: 4,549
|
|
Nov 30, 2011 17:22:29 GMT
|
Here's a storey about ownership, 2 mates of mine had a deal about 4 months back, Roy was lending Rob £1500 for a headstone for his dads grave, Roy got Rob to sign a recipt putting Robs wifes car as asurity for the amount of the loan (a 3 grand ren scenic) now the money never actually changed hands but Roy took the car anyway (it was at my yard for repairs and Roy lived there in a caravan) he had a psychotic episode and basicly went cookoo ruining quite a few peoples lives, now as far as anyone involved in the whole sorry saga thinks, he stole the car! no money changed hands ! BUT Roy then died a few weeks later and all his estate passed to his son, now when Rob tried to report the scenic as stolen the recipt was produced by the son and the police simply said "we are not interested it's a civil matter the recipt holds sway over the V5" (which was still in Robs wifes name) take him to court. A warning there, all true unfortunatly, we burn Roy on the 6th DEC and Rob and his wife have split over the whole affair, messy stuff and all down to that bit of paper ripped out of a school text book being more important than an officialy printed and sanctioned document IE the V5 Even though the recipt wasn't signed by the regesterd keeper listed on the V5
|
|
Last Edit: Nov 30, 2011 17:25:03 GMT by bortaf
R.I.P photobucket
|
|
bailey
Part of things
Posts: 125
|
|
Nov 30, 2011 17:45:37 GMT
|
thanks all for the heads up but in that case i have never owned a car other then the vectra i bought from a dealer. so thats 1 in about 25 cars that has been lagit.....WOW make you think
|
|
|
|
bortaf
Posted a lot
Posts: 4,549
|
|
Nov 30, 2011 17:57:38 GMT
|
thanks all for the heads up but in that case I have never owned a car other then the vectra I bought from a dealer. so thats 1 in about 25 cars that has been lagit.....WOW make you think I know scarey aint it, or at least sobering
|
|
R.I.P photobucket
|
|
bailey
Part of things
Posts: 125
|
|
Nov 30, 2011 18:25:45 GMT
|
not really sceary never had a problem yet i have never given a reciet with any car sale i have made i might start collecting them back in again lol
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2011 18:35:56 GMT
|
This is the one thing I make sure I do, even if I can't prove the past history of it I'll still get a couple bits of paper and make proper receipts. It is a safety net whether you're buyer or seller... ok, so the odd freak incident could happen a la the american corvette but that is few and far between.
|
|
- '80 Mk1 Vauxhall Cavalier Saloon, 3.0l 12v... in progress with some special plans ahead - '94 106 Rallye, Endurance Rally Car
|
|
crazymonkey
Posted a lot
ummm....what was I doing again???
Posts: 1,981
|
|
Nov 30, 2011 18:45:48 GMT
|
I'll have to start giving receipts to people who buy bikes from me then and get receipts when I buy them, a piece of paper stating sold as seen, price and signature will suffice wont it? its the registered keeper who counts when a fine or something comes through though lol. but I'll have to remember in future as that means technically Ive only legitimately owned 1 car as the only one i had a receipt for.
|
|
whoever said dogs were man's best friend....obviously never heard of cable ties
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2011 19:14:31 GMT
|
Yeah, you just need -
Seller address and name. the date. how much was paid. what for (ie make model reg) and sign. I like both buyer and seller to sign.
You can add "sold as seen" and all that but it actually means nothing in law any more.
Job done
|
|
1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
|
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2011 21:28:15 GMT
|
Yeah, you just need - Seller address and name. the date. how much was paid. what for (ie make model reg) and sign. I like both buyer and seller to sign. You can add "sold as seen" and all that but it actually means nothing in law any more. Job done I have, at times when I've been mega organised, written the receipt out onto or with a copy of the advert/ebay auction for absolute clarity about what the buyer has purchased. I have to admit that amongst this community, I'm far more lax than I should be and have not bothered writing or asking for receipts, not bothered counting the cash etc. I should probably be more careful as being part of the community does not automatically make someone good to buy or sell cars with* *I've been fortunate enough to have never been stung so far though
|
|
...proper medallion man chest wig motoring.
|
|
|
|
|
I had a conversation with a Halfords Employee about this once. I needed a number plate making, the sign at the back (I forget the exact wording) asked for proof of ownership. I gave him my log book to look at, he made the plate. I said "I thought you needed proof of ownership?"
He replied "Yeah, that's why you showed me the log book"
Then I pointed out the writing at the top in big bold leters, took my plate and left him with a confused look on his face! lol
|
|
Last Edit: Dec 1, 2011 18:17:46 GMT by Deleted
|
|
bl1300
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,678
|
|
|
Ooer.
I don't have a reciept for either of my cars. Only a copy of the paypal transaction for the mk1 DAF and nothing at all for the triumph other than the log book.
Another car I have owned now owned by my mother I inherited. My grandfather bought it new but it was not specifically named to me in his will, only that I would get one third of his estate. We did just that and as the only driver inheriting I had the car. The question is did I actually legally own that car as the previous owner was not alive to sell it to me
|
|
Current fleet.
1967 DAF 44 1974 VW Beetle 1303s 1975 Triumph Spitfire MkIV 1988 VW LT45 Beavertail 1998 Volvo V70 2.5 1959 Fordson Dexta
|
|
|
|
|
Here in Malaysia, the name on the log book is the owner. Should you sell the car, JPJ (the roads deaprtment) inspect the vehicle to ensure it's the same one as stated in the book and also ensure that the seller has the right to sell it.
If the vehicle is on HP, then this is noted in an endorsement section and in this case the seller has to get permission from the lender to sell as well. It's not perfect and there are ways round it, but involvement of the government at point of sale does deter rotten sales to an extent.
|
|
Last Edit: Dec 1, 2011 21:19:19 GMT by georgeb
|
|
bortaf
Posted a lot
Posts: 4,549
|
|
|
Ooer. I don't have a reciept for either of my cars. Only a copy of the paypal transaction for the mk1 DAF and nothing at all for the triumph other than the log book. Another car I have owned now owned by my mother I inherited. My grandfather bought it new but it was not specifically named to me in his will, only that I would get one third of his estate. We did just that and as the only driver inheriting I had the car. The question is did I actually legally own that car as the previous owner was not alive to sell it to me RE my answer above, Roys son according to the police is now the leagal owner of the scenic as he inherited all Roys estate through a will, he's giving the car back to Rob cos he's a decant bloke and understands his dad was ill (shall we say), what the copper told us when we went to the police station was a recipt or other form of leagaly recognised ownership transfer is the decider, after dissapearing to check with higher up coppers the techy term he used was "Disposition by a will may also be regarded as a consensual transaction" of which a recipt signed by both partys is also proof of a consensual transaction. The car wasn't specificly listed in the will cos he wrote it prior to the psychotic episode, just the usuall all my worldly goods ect I have to admit i'm on shakey ground here and only repeating whats i've heard in person from people who should know over the last 2 months sorting this mess out (IE coppers and soliciters) but I may have swapped out easyer to remember words for others but with the same meaning? I thought it may be relivant to the thread ?
|
|
Last Edit: Dec 1, 2011 23:09:24 GMT by bortaf
R.I.P photobucket
|
|
10mpg
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,253
Club RR Member Number: 204
|
|
|
I wasn’t aware people didn’t know this, I almost always get/give a receipt the only exceptions have been really low value stuff or selling to a mate...
|
|
The Internet, like all tools, if used improperly, can make a complete bo**cks of even the simplest jobs...
|
|
|
|
|
If you have to go to court you'll find that bank statements help showing the money going in or money going out of your account.
Charlie
|
|
|
|
VIP
South East
Posts: 8,293
|
|
|
You can add "sold as seen" and all that but it actually means nothing in law any more. Job done Quite the opposite, in a private sale, caveat emptor still reigns supreme.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Couple of issues ago in Practical Classics a guy wrote in saying that the Police refused to help him after his car was taken from storage and sold, DVLA even changed the registered keeper I think because the buyer had proof of ownership. I suspect there was more to it than that, as the police responded in the next issue saying there was no evidence of theft or some such words. Well worth giving and getting receipts btw. In particular, if you're selling a car without an MOT that's not roadworthy, if the buyer takes it on the road and has an accident, the seller can be prosecuted unless he's made it clear that it's not to be put on the road until it's checked/repaired. www.northlincs.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/AF6CC87B-9483-4C9C-8F60-2A78AC17C01E/13374/UNROADWORTHYVEHICLESGUIDANCE.pdf
|
|
|
|
|