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reading about that "scene" car that had its wheel come off and the owner blaming the lack of spigot rings for the failure it brought something to mind. I've seen the debate on a watercooled VW forum I read and dudes claim that they've had all sorts of wheel wobbles, suspension shimmies etc due to not using spigot rings. I come from an air-cooled VW background and I'm wondering if the lack of spigot rings is actually the root of all evil. I offer these as evidence in my argument that not every car needs spigot rings: (ignore the split pin, it's a pic from the web) and even worse: there must be up on 30 million beetles, buses, type3's, Porsche 356's etc etc etc built using these styles of wheels without spigot rings. How many complaints have you heard? Anyway, I'm interested in finding out exactly why they're necessary. Obviously modern car manufacturers all use hub-centric wheels and hubs for a reason. Any idea what that reason is?
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VIP
South East
Posts: 8,293
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It all depends on the applications. If you are using wheels that are a different PCD to the vehicle, and using 'wobble bolts', the spigot rings are essential.
Some cars are hubcentric, and rely on the hub to centre the wheel fully. You also have to bear in mind that in some applications, the wheel studs/bolts are not designed to take the full weight of a vehicle on them, again a cause for using spigot rings.
However, many cars, including air-cooled VWs, are lug/boltcentric, and can use the wheels nuts/bolt for centring, and can take the weight of the vehicle on the studs.
This is the way I've always understood it, anyway.
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ive never had any problems with not using spigot rings, use correct wheel bolts tighten them up evenly no issues what so ever, i think people who say they have all sorts of issues when not using them are tdoing something wrong. i think the only reason why they are used it is to make it much easier to fit the wheel, its a pain in the tryin to fit 10inch wide, wide 5 fitment wheels on a beetle sometimes, for the average car user tryin to change a punctured wheel the manufacturers have to make it easy and idiot proof as possible.
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scruff
Part of things
Posts: 621
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Yep.
Depends on the application. Some vehicles (usually older) centre the wheel on the bolts/studs and the hub is designed to miss, some use the hub to centre and the studs/bolts just to retain.
If you have hubcentric hubs and non-hubcentric wheels you have a problem as the centre bore may not have been machined accurately and relying on the wheelbolts to centre it will not work very well.
The other way around the bolt holes may not be accurately cut to centre a wheel that usually relies on the hub.
Spigot rings are cheap and a no-brainer IMHO if you can fit them. If the hub is larger than the wheel centre hole then you will ahev to have them machiend anyway.
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Last Edit: Aug 8, 2011 9:51:08 GMT by scruff
1994 Lotus Esprit - Fragile red turbo with pop up lights. 1980 Porsche 924 - Fragile red turbo with pop up lights.
I spy a trend...
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,244
Club RR Member Number: 170
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A Beetle back then was also not a great handler by any stretch, nor was the tyre technology up to much. The times have moved on, the stresses induced upon suspension are likely more than they were all those years ago.
I know my tyre fitter does not bother much about VW Beetle wheels (about the spigot rings/balancing), but on moderns he says it is almost imperative to utilise spigot rings/balancing.
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LowStandards
Club Retro Rides Member
Bigging Up The Sum Sum Man Since '99
Posts: 2,665
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I cant see it being an issue runing without, unless the ode wobble bolts are used!
The spigot will take no weight whatsoever, its merely a location device (most are made of plastic)
I was also led to believe the bolts don't actually 'take weight' there there to clamp the wheel against the hub and lock it in tension, someone might back me up or differ on that???
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it really is a fitment specific thing, in some cases they are required and in other they really don't make much difference.
nearly all modern stuff has cnc made hubs so the bolts are as near to perfect in the hub as is practical with modern industrial production. so a lot of newer stuff can be used in either application (although i really would advise consulting someone in the know before switching types).
another thing to bear in mind is that the bolts don't hold the weight of the vehicle. the job of the bolts is to provide pressure between the wheels mounting face and the hubs flange, this pressure creates friction and its the friction between the face and wheel that holds the vehicle. (which is how 90% of bolted fitting work anyway) the only load the bolts take is tensile and this is created by the wheel trying to fall off the hub when cornering.
also a lot of small stuff is using the hubs and studs from there much larger heavier cousins in an attempt to cut costs, this leaves you with a hub and bearings many times stronger than required, for example the mk3 fiestas using escort hubs, this means the wheel mountings can cope with more stress than standard without too much trouble.
to be fair though its not something that should be dicked about with unless you really know what your doing.
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Mike D
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,197
Club RR Member Number: 57
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the Gimp is correct, there should be enough clamping force by the wheel nuts / bolts to the hub to stop the wheel moving around, the studs should take no actual 'weight'
Spigot rings are necessary to locate the wheel centrally if the design of hub / wheel requires it, but again shouldn't really be taking any 'weight' as such..
It sounds like the wheel fell off 'that' car as the nuts / studs were too long / incorrect / causing the wheel to be inadequately 'clamped' to the hub
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EmDee
Club Retro Rides Member
Committer of Autrocities.
Posts: 5,932
Club RR Member Number: 108
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On my mk2 Polo I have some 58.1 centre bore wheels. Obviously being a VW the car is 57.1
At anything over 70mph they judder like hell. I am not using wobble bolts. For ages I was convinced one of the wheels was bent, but no, I bought some (cheap plastic) spigot rings, problem solved.
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Last Edit: Aug 8, 2011 11:26:40 GMT by EmDee
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All depends on how you like to do up wheels, if you are careful and take you time to do up opposites with the wheel off the ground and tighten in three stages, then drop the car to the floor and just nip them up, there should be no wobble. My imp was not hubcentric and the wheels were fine. If you like to do up two nuts and then drop it to the floor re-attach the rest and do up one after the other to spec, then you will experience wobble to a degree known only to zebedee
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,784
Club RR Member Number: 34
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ive never,ever run spigots on anything unless its wobble bolted. never had a single problem with wheels falling off or wobbly wheels, in nearly 10 years. i also come from an aircooled vw background.
from an engineering point of view, they're only there to facilitate/ease correct assembly. i think the biggest reason they're more or less standard on cars these days is to make it easier for numpties to change wheels. making a car with bolts is cheaper than one with studs an nuts. but changing a wheel on a non hubcentric car with bolts is fiddly, to say the least, and youll get filthy doing it as it invariably means the use of feet and knees as well as hands. leaving a bit of extra steel on the hub is no hardship to the manufacturers, and probably speeds up fitting on the assembly line too.
id put money on more wheels falling off cars due to cheap wibblepoo ebay graystone wheelnuts and spacers than lack of spigots. that and the fact no one EVER seems to check a wheel is centred on its PCD properly and tightened down there before dropping it off the jack (pushing it off centre) and then hoiking the nuts up.
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bortaf
Posted a lot
Posts: 4,549
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Same as most it seems in that a spigot is for location only, most are plastic as stated and will take curse word all wieght wise, if they cure a wobble you was doing something wronge beforehand, transit twin wheelers run no spigot and they don't fall off even when you run 4.5 ton on a vehical specced for 3.5 ton, i've run transits for ni on 20 years and never lost a wheel yet, even on the odd "slightly heavy" load. TBH i cant see how a spigot would make the wheel any more central unless you were running wobble bolts or had studs to small for the stud hole in the wheels after all normal nuts and studs will self centre on the chamfer when tightend (if done correctly that is)
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R.I.P photobucket
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I'm glad I am not the only one who uses knees / feet / pet monkey to hold the wheel whilst getting the bolts in!
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Ryannn
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,421
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How do you know if you're hub-centric or not?
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Hubcentric hubs usually have a machined surface that pokes out of the centre of the disc / drum, non hubcentric hubs are usually just pressed. This is not definitive though
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How do you know if you're hub-centric or not? Go to the docters, they can do a test.
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Remember the days when sex was safe and motorsport was dangerous. Vintage bling always attracts pussy.
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lol @ cairyhunt
Actually dez i disagree with you, from an engineering point of view they are there to take alot the shear forces from the bolts. you might not have had any problems so far, but that doesnt mean that the potential is not there
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Mike D
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,197
Club RR Member Number: 57
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From an engineering view, the bolts should only have a tensile force on them, there should be no shear load at all!
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I think the general idea is that while they are not always necessary, better safe than sorry. I used spigot rings for these, as the holes had been widened and were not perfect. I felt much safer and £40 was not much compared with the risk I'd have been taking. just my personal viewpoint.
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From an engineering view, the bolts should only have a tensile force on them, there should be no shear load at all! +1. That's what the hub face is for. And why spacers should have as much surface area against the wheel as the hub.
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