RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Jul 28, 2011 11:54:25 GMT
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Being a broke student bum, I'm currently planning to put a VW 1.9 TD/TDi engine in my Scirocco, however I must confess that although I know what I'm doing with regards the physically bolting it in side of the swap, I'm not too clued up on differences between all the difference VW diesel engines. I'll be aiming for around 110/115bhp so I can still have some fun in the car, but I'm not fussed about any more than that, as my current insurance will cover me up to 120bhp, without any additional cost, so more than that and I'm paying more, which is uncool on a swap I'm only really doing to save money. What gearbox comes on the engine isn't a huge concern, as I've got a mk1 caddy diesel box lying around I can use, but a longer geared box would be nice, as I'll be doing a lot of motorway miles. That said, I'd rather stick the caddy box in and put up with low gearing than convert to cable shift or a hydraulic clutch. (Unless it's stupidly easy). As for electrics, the less the better, but I would consider my self capable of doing the wiring needed to get the more modern lumps going, as long as the ECU won't fault out at a lack of abs, airbags etc.. because getting that corrected costs money, which is also uncool. I'm basically trying to decide what's going to be best for me to stick in there, based on: - Cost to get the engine + whatever else I need.
- Fuel Economy.
- Ease of installation.
- Cost of getting 110bhp out of it.
This is my current understanding with each engine, please correct me if I'm wrong about anything: Mk3 golf/B3-4 Passat, 75bhp, 1.9TD: Good points: Very basic engine, easy to tune, very cheep to buy, runs on veg oil if needs be, jolly pain in the backside all wiring to get it working in the car, might come with a longer geared box that'll fit. Bad points: Very basic engine, so not as good on fuel as an ECU controlled engine, would probably need a bigger turbo to get 110bhp, which adds to the cost. Questions: Is it really going to be worse on fuel than a TDi? Am I right in thinking the turbo would need changing for 110bhp? Is the wiring really as simple as 1 wire for the stop solenoid? Mk3 golf/B3-4 Passat, 90bhp 1.9TDi: Good Points: More power from the factory, better fuel economy if Parkers figures can be trusted, standard turbo would probably be fine with 110bhp upwards, might still run on veg? still relatively simple injection system, so wiring could be quite manageable, might come with a longer box that'll fit. Bad Points: More wiring I think? I'm not scared of wiring at all, but it does mean more time and effort for the swap, donor car might cost a little more, although probably a marginal difference, not sure how much can be done to the fuelling manually at home if it is ECU controlled. Questions: Is it ECU controlled at all? Would the stock turbo really be ok at 110bhp? Would it really get better mpg than the TD? How complex is the wiring if it is ECU controlled? Will veg oil kill it? Mk4 golf/B5 passat/A4/A6, 90/110bhp 1.9TDi: Good Points: Pretty much the same as above, but no chance of having the right box attached. Maybe better still economy. Bad Points: I'm pretty sure these are ECU controlled, Some ancillerys could be awkward if the engines from a Passat/A4/A6, I'm not sure about veg oil in them. Questions: Is there much difference between these and the mk3 golf lump? Can the fuelling be fiddled with manually at home? Will they run on veg oil? Mk4 golf/B5 passat/A4/A6, 115bhp/130bhp PD 1.9TDi: Good Points: More power strait out of the box, better economy thanks to modern witchcraft, slightly smoother and more refined. Bad Points: Limited home tuning, I don't think they'll burn veg oil, a fair bit more electrics, more expensive to buy, Some ancillerys could be awkward if the engines from a Passat/A4/A6. Questions: Will the ECU curse word it's pants and fault out at a lack of airbags/ABS ect? Will they take veg oil? I'm guessing they wont. Are they really better on fuel than the older engines? 150bhp PD and all 2 litres are out of the question because of the high purchase cost/insurance. So yeah, that's my current thinking, anyone's input and experiences are more than welcome! Thanks, Robin. |
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Last Edit: Aug 2, 2011 22:47:12 GMT by RobinJI
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craig1010cc
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,998
Club RR Member Number: 35
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Jul 28, 2011 12:14:14 GMT
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I can answer a couple of q's for the B4 engines The 75 BHP TD (AAZ) is a bit worse on fuel (Ben is averaging around 50MPG in his) whilst I'm getting 58.5 out of mine (IZ 90 BHP TDi) at the mo. The AAZ is a stronger engine internally than the IZ (but the IZ can still be tuned to 150BHP with out taking the head off) The tuning boxes fro the IZ allegidly take them upto 110 BHP, but never used one or seen the rolling road results to confirm, but that combined with a straight through 2.5" exhaust/ good air filter should get you yoru 110BHP The IZ has (I believe, haven't poked about to check) fly by wire throttle, and I think you'd need to transplant the clocks to get it working right. and I believe the final drive is longer (mine does 2500 RMP at 70) The IZ is veg friendly as well  Are you planning on being at A52 over the weekend? Let me know if you are and you can have a poke around mine (and Ben's if he's got his there) and get a good idea of the differences. Your best option would be to source a donor vehicle and then you can swap over all that you need and recover some of the costs Bruce style  I think the Passat pedal box is the favoured box for use when fitting 20vT lumps into MK1/2 golfs, so should be good for converting the Rocco as well |
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Jul 28, 2011 12:26:57 GMT
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Thanks for that Craig. I'm in London this weekend with the family, so won't be at A52 unfortunately. That's good to know about the IZ, although a bit of a pain that I'd be needing the clocks as well, they really wouldn't fit in with the Scirocco's dash. I wonder if there's any way of getting around that. Fly by wire I'd probably get around by mounting the potentiometer off the pedal in the engine-bay somewhere and running a traditional throttle cable to it. I really don't want to modify the shell at all, as there's a possibility I'll be putting a petrol engine back in it after uni (2l 16v or 20vt). I'd also like to avoid things like a 2.5" exhaust, as it's more cost, and I'd like the car to be as quiet and refined as possible for the drive to and from uni. Again, tuning box's cost money, which is a down side I guess. It might be worth considering that at least some of the difference in mpg between yours and Ben's could be down to the body shape, the saloons are known to be noticeably more aerodynamic than the estates. Any ideas what type of gear linkage or clutch your Passat has? (As in cable vs rod shift, hydro vs cable clutch?). I'll likely buy a whole donor car and do it 'Bruce style' like you say  . Rusty mk3 golfs seem plentiful and cheep. |
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craig1010cc
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,998
Club RR Member Number: 35
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Jul 28, 2011 12:49:19 GMT
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Mine has a cabel shift and a hydro clutch. I recon th edial set is about the same size as a rocco's. From what I remeber talking to Lawsy about his old IZ B4, it ran with out the clocks fitted (it had developed a fault and ran like a bag of spanners with them connected) so you may not need the clocks after all There is also the resistor mod that is supposed to give good power increases (and the 1st ones doen where back in about 2008 and they are still recomending doing it). I think most of the mk3 golfs will be AAZ's and not IZ's, could be wrong though |
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Jul 28, 2011 13:16:50 GMT
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Yeah, according to Parkers they did the golf with both, but like you say, I'm guessing the AAZ will be more common, still if there's IZ powered ones out there, then they're available. Golfs seem cheaper and more common than Passats, so it's my preferred route. Resistor mod sounds like a fairly decent idea, we spoke about that with our lecturer at college a while ago and the theory seems sound.
Bummer about the gearbox. Although for that much better cruising RPM I'm half tempted to look into converting to cable shift and hydro clutch, can't be that hard. I think I'll be looking at about 3200rpm at 70 with the Caddy box.
Are the dials square or is the top an arc like most modern dials? If they're square then they may not be too bad, back-lit modern dials would be a bonus, it's just a fair bit of extra work I'd like to avoid.
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Last Edit: Jul 28, 2011 13:17:41 GMT by RobinJI
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craig1010cc
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,998
Club RR Member Number: 35
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Jul 28, 2011 14:15:14 GMT
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I recon that the hydro clucth and cable shift should be easy enough, and then you have the right set upo for the 20vT The dials look like  |
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jasonj
Part of things
Posts: 220
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Jul 28, 2011 14:36:53 GMT
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To answer a couple of questions the 1.9 Tdi 90 and 110 engines have an ecu controlled mechanically driven Bosch fuel pump so will run veg oil. These engines can be taken to 130 BHP with no problems. I don't think the wiring would be much of an issue
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Team Supercharged Opel Ascona 400.
294bhp - 235 lb/ft
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Lawsy
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,615
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Jul 28, 2011 14:40:49 GMT
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Mine has a cabel shift and a hydro clutch. I recon th edial set is about the same size as a rocco's. From what I remeber talking to Lawsy about his old IZ B4, it ran with out the clocks fitted (it had developed a fault and ran like a bag of spanners with them connected) so you may not need the clocks after all There is also the resistor mod that is supposed to give good power increases (and the 1st ones doen where back in about 2008 and they are still recomending doing it). I think most of the mk3 golfs will be AAZ's and not IZ's, could be wrong though AAZ's are more common for the swaps (going in mk1 etc) also the 1.6 TD from the B3 and Mk2 golfs was a great lump, I had a GTD Golf with that in As Craig right well says up there The B4 with the 1z takes a signal from the clocks to the fuel pump which controls flow and power etc and makes it more efficient, when running good its better on juice than a AAZ but needs the clocks.. Mine was causing a fault and with the clocks connected it was causing the pump to misbehave, result was a new set of clocks - which at the time were harder than hens teeth to get.. I solved it temporarily by disconnecting the clocks altogether, the car still ran, but went in limp mode so had a lot less power - wouldn't recommend it - was aweful to drive whilst faulty too So in short, best for a simple transplant would be the AAZ as its more of a drop in, sort a couple of wires and bobs your mothers brother, where the 1z would need some more electrical know how I've also had an AHU in a mk3 golf, very similar to the 1z, but pulled like a train and would get 55-60mpg on the commute - but again eletrickery |
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Lawsy
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,615
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Jul 28, 2011 14:43:35 GMT
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But I'm liking this talk, keeps making me think of cancelling the for sale ad and researching a nice dirty derv for the cavalier, then pop into daily duties next year
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craig1010cc
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,998
Club RR Member Number: 35
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The 1.7 scav TD would go in to it rather well Lawsy, you know it makes sense It goes well in Si's Viva |
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Lawsy
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,615
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The 1.7 scav TD would go in to it rather well Lawsy, you know it makes sense It goes well in Si's Viva I know mate - its just finding a good gearbox and then doing the convert to manual too.. Am at a real low spot rigth now, I'm kind of hoping it doesnt sell and i'm then forced to ride it through to a good time, then look at conversions over winter ;D |
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Looks like I've found my self an engine, and guess what, in true awkward git style, it's none of the above . I've hopefully got my hands on a modified GTD lump (SB engine code). This is the 1.6TD. Now I've got a few wiring related questions to prepare my self before I go and pick it up and fit it, if anyone can help me out with them it'd be awesome: - I know the engine only needs a feed to the stop solenoid to work, but what sort of a feed? is it simply and ignition live?
- Is the starter and alternator wiring going to be the same as my petrol?
- Is my petrol battery going to be man enough for it? (I'll find out it's cranking power, but I think it's 470amp.)
- What do I do about the glow plugs? are the easy enough to make up the wiring for them, or will I need a section of the loom from the donor car? I guess I could always just run them off a manual switch as a worst case scenario?
I'm also aware that the off-side engine mount will be wrong, and that the one off my petrol engine may not fit. I know I could find one from a mk1 caddy diesel to use, but that sounds neither quick, easy or fun. I don't mind a bit of welding and improvisation, but I can't remember if the mount is alloy or steel. I guess I could look at my current one tomorrow, but I'll still have no idea about the mk2 one that'll be on the engine. I'm also unsure about the front mount, as if it's not correct I've got a feeling the diesel pump will get in the way of fitting my petrol one. (I'm pretty sure I'm right in thinking that my gearbox mounts will swap strait over, as 020 box's are all the same externally.) So things to fabricate will be: - Wiring
- Engine mounts (as mentioned)
- Downpipe
- Intercooler pipework
- Mounts for the Passat intercooler I've got lying around.
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sparkyt
Posted a lot
selling stuff
Posts: 1,767
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The solenoid is just off your ignition but the glow plug is run off a relay fitted in the fuse box on the mk3 which you can just mount in the engine bay . I'd use the loom out of a Ford escort derv as its just ready to go with one wire to the ignition amd on to the batt very easy to take out .. you may want to run the feed to a light on the dash so you know when its on or off ...has the rocco got fuel return to the tank ?
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Cool, cheers. If it's just a timer relay I'm sure I could sort something out. I can just about get my head around most basic electrics like that.
Yeah, the Scirocco's got a return line.
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craig1010cc
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,998
Club RR Member Number: 35
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Are the petrol fuel lines going to be up to the job? Are they a big enough bore and stand the pressure?
Good choice of engine though, I went out in my mates tune GTD mk2 and it was pretty rapid. BAttery wise, have a look in the helfruads books at what spec a b3 passat td is and see if yours is close. Summer you wont have an issue, but when it gets cold you may be struggling.
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I'd deffo say get the glowplugs on a timer - my conversion used a switch on the dash to control them... accidently left them on more than once, and killed the battery
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You're like a crazy backyard genius! |
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Cool, yeah, leaving them on sounds like something I'd do, so I think I'd better put them on a timer relay.
According to halfords website, a mk2 golf diesel uses a 570amp battery, while the equivalent quality for mines 520, so not a massive difference. I'll have to see what's actually in mine now though.
To be honest I don't know if the fuel lines are up to the job. In fact I don't really know much about the fuel system pre-engine on older diesels. I was hoping to get away with a low pressure lift pump feeding a swirl pot like you'd use on an injection petrol engine, in which case the fuel pressure in the lines would be no more than it is currently. Flow wise to be honest I don't know if they're big enough, but I wasn't expecting the fuel demand to be any greater than a petrol of similar power, which they should be fine with. For what it's worth, the flexies are all stamped as being rated up to 8 bar.
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Last Edit: Aug 3, 2011 9:14:29 GMT by RobinJI
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tbh, most bosch pumped engines, don't even have a lift pump - just a fuel filter (the larger the better!) and a small priming bulb It was getting HUGE amounts of air - upto a foot or so of the pipe at a time was just air. It had to be revved a bit to overcome gulps of air that large, but the 50/50mix of air and fuel it was being fed, didn't make diddly squat difference. Turned out the main plastic fuel line was split, along with the diaphragm in the priming pump being knackered, took bloody ages to figure out where the air leak was coming from! Having a lift pump fitted is good for the pump long-term (academically speaking) but isn't essential. If you don't already have a pump fitted in your fuel system, don't spend money on something that won't make any real-world difference |
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You're like a crazy backyard genius!
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Ah, cool, cheers for that, this whole diesel thing's pretty new to me. I've currently got a facet electric pump feeding the carb, so I may as well just leave that in there as it is. Hopefully the lines will be big enough, like I say, I reckon they'd handle a petrol of similar power easy enough. Well I'm getting to the point where there's not many questions left now. The bad news is that I've had a look at the passat intercooler I was hoping to use and I'd not be happy with it to be honest, so I'll probably be looking at buying something like this for it, which is more money, but I guess if I ever want to go 20vt in the future then I'm one step closer, haha. There's looads of room for it in the Scirocco's long nose. |
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Looks like I've found my self an engine, and guess what, in true awkward git style, it's none of the above . I've hopefully got my hands on a modified GTD lump (SB engine code). This is the 1.6TD. Now I've got a few wiring related questions to prepare my self before I go and pick it up and fit it, if anyone can help me out with them it'd be awesome: - I know the engine only needs a feed to the stop solenoid to work, but what sort of a feed? is it simply and ignition live?
- Is the starter and alternator wiring going to be the same as my petrol?
- Is my petrol battery going to be man enough for it? (I'll find out it's cranking power, but I think it's 470amp.)
- What do I do about the glow plugs? are the easy enough to make up the wiring for them, or will I need a section of the loom from the donor car? I guess I could always just run them off a manual switch as a worst case scenario?
I'm also aware that the off-side engine mount will be wrong, and that the one off my petrol engine may not fit. I know I could find one from a mk1 caddy diesel to use, but that sounds neither quick, easy or fun. I don't mind a bit of welding and improvisation, but I can't remember if the mount is alloy or steel. I guess I could look at my current one tomorrow, but I'll still have no idea about the mk2 one that'll be on the engine. I'm also unsure about the front mount, as if it's not correct I've got a feeling the diesel pump will get in the way of fitting my petrol one. (I'm pretty sure I'm right in thinking that my gearbox mounts will swap strait over, as 020 box's are all the same externally.) So things to fabricate will be: - Wiring
- Engine mounts (as mentioned)
- Downpipe
- Intercooler pipework
- Mounts for the Passat intercooler I've got lying around.
For the wiring and to make your life easier, get a diesel engine bay wiring loom from any MK1 Golf, Jetta or Caddy. For the driver side mount you again need the same from the above Front and rear mounts are the same on all MK1 platforms with a 1.5 engine upwards There are 5 different types of gearbox mount under the battery tray 1.1 & 1.3 4sp mount 1.1 & 1.3 5sp Mount 1.5, 1.6 4sp Mount 1.5, 1.6 & 1.8 5sp mount 1.5 & 1.6 Automatic mount You mentioned you have a Caddy 020 box to use, you didnt mention whether it is 4 or 5sp as botrh were available. Use the one above thats suits your box Al |
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. Rusty mk3 golfs seem plentiful and cheep.
