Lopez
East Midlands
Posts: 867
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Apr 12, 2011 18:06:41 GMT
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Was talking to a workmate about needing to replace the sills on the Manta today, and the risk of warping/shell distortion and so on. He said that a few years ago he replaced the sills on an Astra GTE in 2 parts - he bought a new pair of sills and cut each in half (not lengthways ) just in front of where the B pillar is. Then he chopped out the rotten sill behind the B pillar, reinforced the inner sill, and welded on the new rear sill section. The next weekend he cut off the front of the sill that runs under the door and replaced that, followed by stitching the 2 parts back together. His reason for doing this was that he only had limited time to work on the car at the weekend and needed it again for Monday morning and didn't have time to cut off the full sill and prep it properly and then weld a new full sill back on all in one go, so he did one bit one weekend and the other bit the next. Anyone here done anything similar? I suppose it's no different to butt welding in a tidy repair plate to an existing rotten sill - just that we're talking bloody big repair plates
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Apr 12, 2011 18:17:27 GMT
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I can't see a problem with doing that, but I can't see that it would save all that much time really! I think I'd sooner chop it all out, weld in the new one then blast it with some paint to protect it until I can get on it again. Drive it around like that, then the second session would be grinding down the welds and making pretty with the filler and paint etc.
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gn3dr
Part of things
Posts: 391
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Apr 12, 2011 19:27:12 GMT
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I see huge problems with doing that - mostly related to structural rigidity. Adding to my concern is the standard of welding I see on this site a lot of the time (not directing this at you) This is all not to mind the fact that it's a load of extra work. Just brace your shell before you cut out the complete old sill and do teh job properly
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Apr 12, 2011 19:35:15 GMT
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What a load of balderdash! rarely will a shell distort if you remove a sill, only if the sill is all that attaches the side to the floor, but I can think of no cars where that is the case, most have an outer sill, and then an inner, which is the bit that gives structural strength.People tend to go a bit OTT if they're not familiar with replacing panels, bracing everything to the hilt. Cut the whole sill out, carry out any necessary repairs to the inner sections, then tack the complete new sill on, re-hang the door to check gaps etc, if all is good in the hood, then weld the mother up.
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1989 Mini MG 1275 ~ 1987 VW Polo ~ 1989 Citroen 2CV ~ 1998 VW T4 ~ 2006 Volvo XC70
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Gray
Part of things
Silence isnt golden!!!
Posts: 742
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Apr 12, 2011 19:42:55 GMT
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What a load of balderdash! rarely will a shell distort if you remove a sill, only if the sill is all that attaches the side to the floor, but I can think of no cars where that is the case, most have an outer sill, and then an inner, which is the bit that gives structural strength.People tend to go a bit OTT if they're not familiar with replacing panels, bracing everything to the hilt. Cut the whole sill out, carry out any necessary repairs to the inner sections, then tack the complete new sill on, re-hang the door to check gaps etc, if all is good in the hood, then weld the mother up. ^^^^^^^ Exactly right! Theres few cars need bracing out, Mantas arent one of them
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Lopez
East Midlands
Posts: 867
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Apr 12, 2011 20:55:06 GMT
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The conversation started off about the Manta but we were just talking about warping and distortion in general when it comes to welding.
I'd just not heard of anyone fitting a sill in 2 stages before and wondered if it was some hidden accepted method I'd never heard of!
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Apr 12, 2011 21:05:04 GMT
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Mr. MOT tester might not like a 2-part sill
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Someone just shot the elephant in the room.
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Apr 12, 2011 21:11:26 GMT
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I can't see how it'd be a problem at all as long as the two pieces are properly welded together, in much the same way that replacing a sill at all is only ok if you know how to weld it all together. Though I also can't see how it'd take significantly less time to do half a sill compared to a whole one. Perhaps in the particular case above due to some unforseen problems but not in general
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...proper medallion man chest wig motoring.
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Gray
Part of things
Silence isnt golden!!!
Posts: 742
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Apr 12, 2011 21:13:40 GMT
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Ive never done it or heard of it before and have fitted thousands of them now. Done right it shouldnt pose a problem but I can think of no really good reason to do it. its just as fast to do the complete sill and makes life easier for lining up etc When fitting a sill any distortion due to welding will be fairly localised to certain areas, between the rear arch and the door on your Manta for example but thats down to how you weld it and will only be rippling due to contraction, you should be able to keep that to a minimum by leaving time between your welds, underneath you shouldnt get any. Its absolutely impossible to distort the body with the welding plant, it takes something serious to do that
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Apr 12, 2011 21:15:05 GMT
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Mr. MOT tester might not like a 2-part sill Might not like sugar in his tea either. Just as irrelevant.
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Apr 12, 2011 21:21:32 GMT
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Mr. MOT tester might not like a 2-part sill Might not like sugar in his tea either. Just as irrelevant. oh yes. why is it irrelevant? if its an MOT fail, then the job would have to be done again, so it would be quite relevant
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Last Edit: Apr 12, 2011 21:22:02 GMT by Autofive
Someone just shot the elephant in the room.
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Gray
Part of things
Silence isnt golden!!!
Posts: 742
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Apr 12, 2011 21:29:54 GMT
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If the mot man saw it there might be an issue over the whole "like for like" repair thing. then he would insist on the sill being fully welded all the way round (as opposed to spotwelding as the manafacturer did) then any time saving is gone and it will look terrible! So I reckon the mot is probably relevant alright lol
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BiAS
Club Retro Rides Member
Insert witty comment here
Posts: 2,231
Club RR Member Number: 147
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Fitting a new sill in 2 partsBiAS
@cheeqi
Club Retro Rides Member 147
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Apr 12, 2011 22:12:19 GMT
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I've seen it done before on a Spitfire. Not an accepted secret technique! I used to get a tut and a 'really should be seam welded along the bottom as well' speech every time a took a replaced sill in at the place I used to use for my MOTs. He always passed them though, and used to complain if they were taken down there bare (Like if I'd only just finished it and didn't want to take it down with wet paint/schultz on it) I've always reasoned that if you're replacing a seam you should try and replicate how the manufacturer designed it.
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(car+wheels)-rideheight=WIN
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,926
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Fitting a new sill in 2 partsstealthstylz
@stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member 174
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I've never had a problem with plug welded lower edges and along the seam inside the doors aslong as the rest is seamed in place.
I can't see any problems with doing it in 2 bits though. Weld is stronger than steel.
Matt
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I did my polo sills in 3 sections, as I was cutting out 3 inches from the bottom of the outer sill, 1 inch from the inner sill and 2 inches from the edge of the floorpan. I left 6 inches in the centre, replaced the front and rear sections then replaced the 6 inches in the middle. the reason for leaving the middle 6 inches was so that the alignment would stay correct, between the 3 panels. I wouldnt have been happy if I'd done it all in one go then the doors etc didnt close
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Might not like sugar in his tea either. Just as irrelevant. oh yes. why is it irrelevant? if its an MOT fail, then the job would have to be done again, so it would be quite relevant I don't think it would fail.... I know of a sill thats in two parts from standard but just cant remember what car it was bloody on grrrrrrrrrrrr It had a lap joint just behind the door (2 door) and the front part went under the rear part, Then spot welded down the seam. Itll come to me.... Maybe.......
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I did my polo sills in 3 sections, as I was cutting out 3 inches from the bottom of the outer sill, 1 inch from the inner sill and 2 inches from the edge of the floorpan. I left 6 inches in the centre, replaced the front and rear sections then replaced the 6 inches in the middle. the reason for leaving the middle 6 inches was so that the alignment would stay correct, between the 3 panels. I wouldnt have been happy if I'd done it all in one go then the doors etc didnt close From expierence having done that. You probably didnt achive anything by leaving it in. I welded up an old mk2 i had just to get another 12months out of it. But it was a real dog, Needed edge of passenger floorpan, and an outer sill, But once i cut it all off in noticed the inner was gone too. Sooo a weekends worth of welding later i rehung the door. Went back on fine... I think the reason it was is, Between the two beam mounts at the back is quite stiff and that supports the rear of the roof, The front of the roof is sat ontop of the firewall which isnt going to twist easily... Then its all tied together by the tunnel and the roof. One thing that hasnt been said is. alot depends on the way the car is lifted or jacked off the ground!!! Ever jacked a car up on the rear of the sill and found the door is stiffer to open/close? Yet if you put a jack at both ends its not... Its that small amount of twist..... *so idealy you need to plan the way your supporting the car, Then just get on with cutting it out.... If your realy worried about stiffness, Take the door off and weld a bar between the A and B pillars...
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,784
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Fitting a new sill in 2 partsDez
@dez
Club Retro Rides Member 34
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oh yes. why is it irrelevant? if its an MOT fail, then the job would have to be done again, so it would be quite relevant I don't think it would fail.... I know of a sill thats in two parts from standard but just cant remember what car it was bloody on grrrrrrrrrrrr It had a lap joint just behind the door (2 door) and the front part went under the rear part, Then spot welded down the seam. Itll come to me.... Maybe....... mx-5 is one that immediately springs to mind- they have a lap joint just as you described below the rear lower corner of the door. that always bloody rots out and is a pig to replicate! (unless you have a bead roller )
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