eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
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Just a very quick question...
I received my lockable fuel cap, but to me it does not look vented in any way though I specified that when ordering.Seeing plenty of overflow evidence from the few drives without a cap means I don't want to return and reorder. On my previous fuel cap I had drilled a small hole, but I did feel that even with 2,5mm diameter, this would make the car smell.
So if i need to drill a hole again, how small may it be?
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Jul 18, 2023 17:10:30 GMT
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Those plastic ones are designed for the flow rate of a carb usually with no or a very small return flow, also Carbs tend to damp out the peak flow demands. I suspect even a new one might be quite a significant restriction,I would try replacing it with a fuel injection filter and see what effect on flow it has. I’ll try and find out by eliminating it as a final test.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Jul 18, 2023 17:07:52 GMT
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"The see through filter types are usually used on low pressure systems and in mine it is in the low pressure high volume bit. And it is brand new." Doesn't mean it may not have collasped with the high flow rate ... If only there was a high flow rate, lol. No the filter element itself looks perfect as well.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Jul 17, 2023 17:47:42 GMT
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Been following this one with interest - I think everyone on the forum here is willing you on to find and fix the issue. Sounds like one of those days where at the time you feel frustrated with how much/little you achieved, but I hope on reading that back you realise you actually did a lot. Tidying up and "taking stock" of the situation is as important as getting on with the job. At least by the tests you've made, you now know what the problem ISN'T! Could the filter be partially blocked? Are those little filters meant to work under EFI pressures and flows (~50PSI) vs carburettor-type pressures (~5PSI)? Yes, in hindsight you are quite right… and a while later I know it too, but it doesn’t undo the frustration felt before. But I do feel I now know what to do to permanently improve flow. The see through filter types are usually used on low pressure systems and in mine it is in the low pressure high volume bit. And it is brand new. It seems to be that my line size limits volume put through. If with bigger lines the volume does not go up, my pump is tired as although I can’t remember the volume of this one, it should be higher than the 55-60 liters an hour I get now. The lower spec ones I see new are 90-105… so that would be the last resort. I could use an injection pump here as well, but the trouble is the big difference in connection diameter.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Well, I guess I did it...
Gave myself just enough of a kick in the rear to get going on the granada and garage workbench...
I had planned to make this a pictorial but given the results I don't know why I even should.
Anyway, here goes. After having a bad week being overly tired and having contracted something that has made my throat feel like razorblades and my head like a waterballoon with a hangover of hangovers (I don't drink) that oozes snot and closes the ears (like you were in a plane), taking off work for a day even to try and get some rest, I felt I had to do something at least a little useful with the weekend approaching. So friday morning after having dropped my wife and MIL at their "senior citizen" sport club, I set to the Granada.
I put it outside and did some initial checks and measurements so I knew the various line sizes etc. I then set to taking out the "restrictive" couplings. I removed the left front wheel for access and went on my merry way. That was a bit of a chore and after a more time than I had wanted I had the front done just before I had to go get my wife and MIL again.
After picking them up it was time for tea and a sandwich. And after that I sort of didn't have any will to go on with the job on the Granada at the rear. Access is more limited and it's working on your back under the jacked up (and supported) car. But, I managed to set myself to it. I did the same thing as I did in the front and then when done I had a measure. And I'll be damned if I....................didn't measure the exact same amount as before my 2,5 hours of work! Well I'll be damned! I measured the coupings and they were at least 1,5 mm smaller ID than the the lines themselves, but clearly that didn't do anything much for the flow. I was stunned and annoyed at spending all that time and work for no improvement at all. Now there was still the filter in between the tank and the pump, as I had forgotten to take that out.
So the only thing left to test is taking that out as well. See if it improves. If not I'll have to go up to 8mm ID as I now have 6 that measures as 5.5 but hey... I don't exect much from taking out the fuel filter at that point as the tank to filter to pump is all 8mm, but pump to swirlpot and back to fuel tank return is 6mm. So it may just be that the pump is being restricted by the 6mm outlet.
Still that is a final test before I put on 8mm lines. I do feel I now know what to buy to make al that work. If the pump still can't keep up, I'll replace that too, but I see that as the very last resort.
Before putting the car back in I made use of the extra room in the garage to clear ut my workbench area and put things back in their rightful place. I swept up the enitre floor and left the garage looking a lot more attractive and clean. I stil need to do a real clearout, cause I feel I've got too much stuff in there, but that will be a nice vacation activity.
Car drove well enough on the few trips I took it on but I just don't want to be caught out by this issue again. It did bring me a smile on one particular trip, with the windows and roof open and the stereo on way too loud...
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Just bringing this forward, to say it wasn't a bad looking car before 😎 The colour change to blue however, has really brought out the shape of the car, and has made it many times visually more attractive 😃 I felt the colour (2006 ford sea grey, which was brand new back then) suited the car. The white interior I had fabricated at huge cost but the material was never of the quality I expected for car use. In that guise it was a nice 10 footer... Up close after three years the paint had turned into a moon landscape... If it hadn't it probably would never have become what it is now... Looking back only a few pages to the "after the big works" pictures it really does look smart. I just know it too well, know all the little faults. Luckily there are only very few. I hope to find the will to get on with it this weekend.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Jul 11, 2023 12:43:25 GMT
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I've been meaning to fix the oil leak on my Lotus for 28 years, but it works and is reliable so it just goes on the will get done one day list. Focus on making it reliable and safe so you can enjoy it, you've got years to do the rest, enjoy time with the kids while they still want to do things with you! Good advice. I think that is what I've been doing (or at least trying to) for the past few years but I keep running in to the next issue each and every time... The car I think is safe, and hopefully the fuel flow is the last of the niggles for a while to come. And I think all of you know, family always comes first with me...
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Appreciate the update and I think we all know the feeling all too well. It sounds to me like you'd be better off parking the car for a bit and enjoying life + summer + family for a few weeks (I guess you've got a summer break coming up like the most of us?). and then re-attack the darned thing afterwards. If it makes you feel any better: I've got a new lambda sensor + exhaust damper laying around for what seems like an eternity already and can't get myself to actually fit them to the Alfa. Oh, and I've got some new door trims for a fiat 500 under my bed since last (no, last years!) fathers'day. I'll get around to it one day. There's more important stuff in life than cars. Leaving the car parked up would only add to the feelings described... The only remedy is setting myself to doing the work and driving the car again like I had envisioned. We'll see about building the car a fresh engine later.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Jul 10, 2023 13:08:11 GMT
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Maybe I should just look at this pic more often...
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Jul 10, 2023 12:55:39 GMT
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Hi Sebastiaan, Thanks for asking. Unfortunately there isn't really... Other commitments and either bloody hot or very wet days combined with my energy levels have meant no real progress on the matter. My workbench being a mess doesn't help either. I'm also possibly a bit Granada tired...I'd hoped to have a good driving season this year and worked my ass off to get it at least ready for most of the season, but I still find myself chasing drivability issues. I've been to one meeting...have yet to attend an oldtimer/classic car tour which is what I'd envisioned myself doing with friends and family... I have been driving the car for a bit on occasion (also on those hot days) and I do enjoy that quite a lot as it is a fun car to drive, but it's currently not enough to balance the other thoughts. As much as I love the car, the look, the model, what I've done with it, I even sometimes think about selling up and starting over with a Mustang or Fairlane or even a TR6. But realistically despite it being one of the best and nicest in the country of not the nicest, it'll not fetch enough to do just that. And the Americans will probably not even fit the garage if I could. It seems to behave pretty well at the moment though. Fuel pump never got more than hand warm since improving the flow slightly, swirl pot is always warmer than I'd like. Plan is to measure the OD and ID of the current fuel lines and removing the official fittings that came with the lines as they do diminish the ID quite a bit at the transitions. I'd like to then just slide the right ID rubber hose over them, clamp them and see if they are leak free and how much flow has improved. But this may mean I need some new fittings on the fuel pump and the swirlpot to accomodate te larger ID hose. And what sizes should those be... I can't remeber. And it could also show that flow improvement is dismal and I really need to upgrade the lines. I've wanted to investigate the matter a few times over the past weeks but I just didn't get to it. The prospect of being covered in fuel and preventing the tank from emptying when the hoses are changed over has held me back a bit too. Really I just need to get my ass in gear but it's just not that easy at the moment. And a bit further in the back of my head is the fact it really needs the engine sealed (which means such an amount of disassembly that I'd be better off building a fresh one, but that is a considerable cost) and the exhaust improved. And then I'm still running expensive fuel so doing the LPG thing would that make sense? So my head is filled with al sorts of thoughts...
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Top of the sill now 'spot welded' in with the Mig welder. So difficult to get the correct amperage/feed speed of the wire due to the different thicknesses of the 50 year old original steel but the grinder should sort out the final finish to tidy up the welds around the sill where its been fixed to the car. I myself can't weld, I had to pay a befriended pro, so I am not one to judge. So please don't take offense. But worrying/looking out for someone else's safety is another matter... From the view of structural safety, it being a car that carries people and sees traffic, I have to wonder: how much penetration you have left after cleanup. Some of these welds seem to be very much on top of the metal?
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Jun 29, 2023 15:13:06 GMT
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Nice to see another Granada being restored!
I'm only slightly partial to the model, lol.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Jun 28, 2023 13:41:25 GMT
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or you could go for AN6 PTFE, pretty expensive but probably the easiest to thread through and should last pretty much indefinitely. Personally I wouldn't get too hung up on the safety aspect of the swirl pot, the fuel tank is in a similar place to a Pinto after all, it is what 50 year old cars were like and is a personal choice on how much risk you want to take, much the same thing as riding a motorbike or horse. Difference between the Pinto and the granada is that in the Pinto and Mustang (at least the 66 I owned before), the fuel tank WAS the bottom of the boot, whereas the granada has the tank in a similiar position, yet with a full metal boot floor above it. So any fuel tank rupture would never (or at least not as easily) saturate the interior cabin space via the rear seat as on the Pinto's. I never quite understood why the Mustang was never subject to the same discussion. Maybe as it had just a little more room between the tank and the diff?
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Jun 28, 2023 13:29:22 GMT
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You can also use 8mm Cupro Nickel brake pipes for fuel lines. It's what I have front to back on my Avenger. You can use a brake flaring tool to put a small flare on the ends and then put your rubber hose over with a hoseclip as normal. I haven't had any issues in 4 years using this method, although nylon is no doubt easier to route. You do need a pipe support at regular intervals though, although that would be best with whatever material you choose. Nylon tubing is only easier to route if you don't need tight radius bends like around chassis rails or out of equipment. Having plumbed a number of fuel systems with it, I haven't yet found a DIY method of forming it like factory parts. You can fit factory fittings into it using a heat gun, and it's now possible to buy replacements easily and cheaply. If you can manage without tight bends, nylon is quick, cheap and easy to use which is probably why it's been used for about sixty years. I don't like the possibility of fuel leaks, let alone high pressure ones, so prefer having the fuel lines with as few joins as possible. Which is why I would always go with a submerged fuel pump instead of lift pumps to an external swirlpot. Again they've been OE for ages, so you'd need a seriously powerful engine to have to resort to some of the fancy aftermarket solutions. Here's an Avenger tank modified to take an OE pump/swirlpot/gauge sender/return The clamping parts I made to weld onto the tank And the pump itself; a brand new Range Rover part that was £50 including the sealing ring. I did have to shorten the posts and internal feed pipe: I can get away with nice easy curves for the routing of the fuel line. I routed them to suit the ability of the lines to bend. I get all the possibilities and relatively low cost of modifying a fuel tank. I wasn't comfortable with it back then and would probably still not be completely. But like I said. I have invested in coating my tank and wouldn't want to risk that by doing welding to it now. Also, the top of the tank is ribbed and that means more work/trouble than just adding a simple flange on a flat surface.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Just be aware that a Bosch EFI pump does not really like to "suck" from small bore lines into the fuel tank. It is not great to use as a lift pump IMO. One of the reasons for my choice is that the pump is used more or less as designed. Yeah that was offered up before, so something to consider if I decide to go that route. Edit: On second thought, the bosch efi pump I use is used in the MkI scorpio outside of the fuel tank to supply the 2.8/2.9i engines. So this pump should be ok with drawing fuel from the tank and supplying it to the engine pressurized.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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A little more info on the additional sumps and how they work; the idea is that both feed and return go from/to the sump, so the only thing needing to be replaced from the main tank is the engine's fuel consumption. So a little goes a pretty long way. The bolt-on one is pretty simple; drill a large hole, insert the threaded plate through said hole and bolt sump on from the bottom. The rubber gasket seals it. I've got a similar but homemade setup on my car (an EFI converted Alfa 105) after struggling with oem in tank pickups and pumps (sounds familiar right? ;-)) Since adding that wart, all has been fine and I've no problems running the tank near empty. But I fully get your point on not wanting to cut into the coated tank. All might be well with just a better performing lift pump system, so indeed why not try that first. Thanks for your continued feedback! I guess I just didn't fully understand how that bolt on one was to be mounted... Now I do and I quite like the idea of it. It would simplify the system by using only one suitable pump, would lose the swirl pot as well and improve safety a bit as well. I still don't like the idea of cutting a hole in the tank to fit it. I also need to see how mcuh lower it would be and if that could become an issue. But I should consider it. I do feel the one you used looks bigger, the one you linked seems small and I have my concerns of it being able to always feed the engine. On the other hand the return schould mean fuel is always supplied back at the same point. I may be crazy but I wouldn't really consider my current issue a struggle with pumps, pickups and sumps. The system has worked for 7 years without fail, and for all intents and purposes it may be perfecty functional as is now I changed the filter out and the flow has doubled again. It may have been meagre all along, but it never stranded me until recently and I now feel that was due to the reduced flow causing extra heat. I just consider all this trouble shooting and the result an improvement. And this is where it gets a bit difficult. I have the easy option of just upgrading the lines (which in itself poses some qestions) or modifying the system according to your suggestions at the tank. Upgrading the lines raises the following thoughts: I don't like long rubber lines so I'd need to find a 8mm inner diameter plastic hard line. But my experience with hardlines is that it's tougher to put fittings on. You can't use slide in stuff as the plastic won't stretch. So what fittings do I use? I mean I need to go from the 8mm pickup to the pump and from the pump to the hardline and back to a flexible one to the swirl pot. I now use these and they work well so far, but officially these aren't for fuel lines. Fitting the other solution would also require new lines as they'd have the same diameter issue. Further fitting should be simple enough and the only variable is having or finding the right size hole cutter.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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It might have been a Volvo 940 pump too. Anyway, some of them have a "Walbro style" intank pump that I think feeds the external high pressure pump. It is something like 38-40 mm diameter and quite small. I cut the pickup pipe shorter and the pump rests on the tank bottom. The electric wires pass through the old return fitting (since newer Capris had a return fitting also on carbed cars). Since I still use the external catch tank/swirl pot, I never bothered to add baffles, and it seems to work fine anyway. It is one way to do it, but of course adding baffles is a good idea but then you are in tank cutting territory. Thanks. I get it now. But in that case it is just as easy to use the second efi/bosch pump outside of the tank.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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I agree that it is nice not having to modify the tank itself. I think I have mentioned that in my Capri I use a Volvo 740 in-tank pump as the lift pump, it is small enough that it fits through the sender flange opening and it has been working great for many years now. The benefit over a "generic" low pressure pump is that it is OEM quality, has a greater flow and also a tidy installation. Might be worth considering for future upgrades. As for the safety; a fuel tank in itself is not a big deal, it is fuel vapor and spray that ignites easily and having a swirl pot or catch tank of a litre or so up front wouldn't concern me too much. The reason I moved mine was more that I needed the engine bay space... Did the volvo pump fit without modifications then? I'm not familiar with the 740 pump and ggole shows me several versions, so I need more info to understand. Care to elaborate? In the granada the sender with the fuel pickup/outlet is located in the bottom of the tank so how do you get the volvo pump in and the original sender as well? Did you cut the original pickup pipe short to put the pump on it or something? Do you still need a swirl pot as just this mod wil not prevent the pump from running dry in a corner with low fuel level in the tank.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Jun 27, 2023 14:45:32 GMT
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A quick reply to the last few additions... an appology before hand if I sound like a know it all here...
The filter after the tank was there from before when the tank was still uncoated. I think it now mainly caught debris that was still in the system. The tank still looks good as far as I can peer into it. So I may just remove it now as the other system has its own filter.
I can verify the operation of the lift pump when I increase the line size. In all honesty I consider that the easiest option. It leaves everything as is but should help solve the problem. I could consider using the second efi pump, but I'd have to find a way to go from 8mm fitting at the tank to the 12mm of the pump. So I'd only do that if the pump test warrants that.
Having coated my tank at some expense I'm just not keen on doing any mods to it. Dropping in a pump from above requires a flat surface that I'm not sure there is, also the tank is pressed against the floor of the boot so the space for the outlet is also a problem. At the very least it would lower the tank some. But adding this does nothing to stop fuel from sloshing to one side in a corner starving the pump. There's nothing in the way of baffles in the tank it being a "carb" version. But it's at least easier than adding the other suggested items. One is a weld on, but doesn't seem to be able to hold much fuel in a corner at low tank either, so I don't see the benefit really. The other item I don't quite see how it should work.
My thinking is just increasing volume of flow by increasing line size as a start. The safety aspect of having a swirl pot at this location has never really bothered me too much. Even the MOT man has never said anything about it's location. An accident can always happen obviously, but there's some room around the tank in case of an accident. I agree having it elsewhere could be safer but I can live with this. At least it hasn't been on my mind before while driving. I myself adjust my driving to the vehicle, keeping more distance etc. but you can never fully discount a momentary lapse of yourself or another traffic participant .
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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So I did some troubleshooting based on all of the above. Fuel system first as that I think is the main reason the car is cutting out when hot. I started checking for fuel flow. The first check I did was the return at the tank. I started the engine and looked to see if I could see any fuel going back to the tank (due to the way it is plumbed). I couldn't visually verify. So I undid the return line at the tank and extended it to reach a bucket. First I just watched the flow and was disappointed. So I decided to do a measurement. Timing a minute of engine running.... It was too difficult to isolate the two pumps from eachother as they are fed by the same wiring. The Efi pump I could have hooked up to a battery directly, but at the back that would have menat finding a way of getting 12v to a wire that is hard connected to the pump end bit. So keep this in mind. I got a staggering 450 ml. Where something around 2-2,5l were expected. See this video for the flow: As this was way below expectation I changed out the filter at the tank end... the result was surprising. I guess the filter was more contaminated than I figured. Very fine dust like grit came out of it. So now I had at least double the flow, but it still is meagre. I next checked the swirl pot connections. I do indeed fill it bottom to top from the fuel tank, and one of the upper side connections is the return to the tank. So in theory only when the swirlpot is full it will cycle back to the tank. The efi pump picks up on the bottom as well and the return is the other upper side connection. I next checked the efi pump flow including the fuel filter. This pumped a liter in a matter of seconds. I never did a fulle measurement as I was quite satisfied that this flow was more then enough. Next I swapped the pumps again. The wiring and lines were matched better to the old/originally used one. I again measured flow and this, though in my perception just a little slower than the other, was also filling the bucket at speed. So I don't doubt this flow for now. With everything buttoned up I took the car for a drive. It was still quite a hot day and after this trip the fuel pump was a lot less hot, more in line with hand warm as Kevins had said before. Though the swirlpot itself had quite some heat in it. The under bonnet temp with a BOB engine is not/never low. Everyone I know seems to think they could do with running a bit cooler. I'd like to check for air in the coolant system, but not sure how. Weird enough, this fuel pump makes the engine run smoother. With the other it hunted a little bit at times. So I guess doubling the flow has improved the heat situation some. But to me it is proof that I can do better. A side effect is that the fuel pump at the rear is now more audible, like it is doing it's job better... I checked the line thicknesses from the swirl pot and the EFI has a 12mm pickup and an 8mm feed to and from the engine. This 8mm corresponds with the diameter on the feed lines to both the pump and the BOB fuel rail. No issue there I think. The line thickness to the tank and back was 6mm, which means that at the point where the hard plastic line goes to the rubber sections, the inner diameter is even smaller. So I'm thinking of upgrading these bits to 8mm. I did manage to lose my fuel cap as I figured I had it all bottoned up but the cap apparently was not on (and must have been on the rear glass when I went for my test drive). Have to source a new one...
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