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Dec 14, 2021 21:37:21 GMT
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What Kevin says!
Ignoring the now-gone MS, if you have an EDIS hooked up to the relevant Ford CPS, and you have spark, that part is working. About the only thing that can be wrong with that is plug leads in wrong order (which can also be because the LT trigger wires are in the wrong order). I would still expect vigorous popping and banging though - that's what usually happens to me.
IIRC the main ECU will get it's position trigger from the EDIS (PIP signal) and all being well, the EDIS sends it the SAW signal to alter the timing point, though it will continue to work at a fixed 10º BTDC timing point without the SAW signal.
You need to determine whether the ECU is firing the injectors as the engine is turning. Possibly the plugs are only wet from multiple priming pulses. Possibly the plugs themselves aren't actually sparking because they are NGK and have been fuel soaked once......
So Kevin's suggestion is good. If it runs briefly it tell you you functional sparks and probably fuelling/ECU triggering issue. If it just pops and bangs, as above with added plug wire order confusion. IF it continues to do absolutely nothing then see my NGK comment..... Noid light to check for injector signal would be good - 12v 21W bulb fine too
Compression test aside, does it sound like an engine cranking - can you hear compression strokes? If you can, it should run after a fashion - don't need much compression to run.
Nick
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Last Edit: Dec 14, 2021 21:44:01 GMT by vitesseefi
1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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16grit
Part of things
Posts: 213
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Dec 14, 2021 21:50:16 GMT
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Crank offset was input into the microsquirt settingsUnfortunately on the cosworth v6 you can't adjust the crank sensor spacing, it's two fixed bolts My reading of the docs is that the Microsquirt does not need to see any offset in the software / TunerStudio itself but rather this will be set @ ZERO degrees.
Interesting what you say about the crank sensor spacing. The docs say the required offset is a physical offset effected by placing your VR sensor 60 degrees BTDC on No.1, i.e. the 'nose' of the sensor will be pointing at the tooth that's the sixth tooth from the gap/missing tooth. This will mean making up the correct bracketry to make this happen, or depending on how the trigger wheel is 'attached', spun round on its axis somehow so the same thing is happening...
The other potential issue is noise on the VR / sensor input, routing and shielding need to be good with ideally some type of 'conditioner' on the signal too....
You're probably aware of all that...just thinking out loud really....
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Dec 14, 2021 21:59:22 GMT
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Surely the Microsquirt is irrelevant now.... it's gone...... It's back on the original Ford stuff, and that generally just works.
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Surely the Microsquirt is irrelevant now.... it's gone...... It's back on the original Ford stuff, and that generally just works. Nick Yeah that's what we were after 🙁 Getting really fed up with it all now. Much appreciated input from everyone though 👍 Think we're going to have a break and walk away for a bit before we do something silly. Oh and he did fill the inlet mani with easystart when it had the microsquirt fitted It blew the sides off!
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Dec 15, 2021 12:19:12 GMT
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Right, small update Tested the voltage at the ECU for the injectors, which I've read should be 12v, and both feeds are actually 4.8v Anyone got any recommendations for ECU overhaul companies? Thanks again all
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Dec 15, 2021 12:45:01 GMT
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Right, small update Tested the voltage at the ECU for the injectors, which I've read should be 12v, and both feeds are actually 4.8v Anyone got any recommendations for ECU overhaul companies? Thanks again all we use revtronic in Bradford at work for digital dashes I’m sure they ecu aswell
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Dec 15, 2021 12:54:32 GMT
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Right, small update Tested the voltage at the ECU for the injectors, which I've read should be 12v, and both feeds are actually 4.8v Anyone got any recommendations for ECU overhaul companies? Thanks again all we use revtronic in Bradford at work for digital dashes I’m sure they ecu aswell Just messaged them, apparently they don't do ECUs Thanks for the suggestion anyway
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Dec 15, 2021 13:26:05 GMT
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Right, small update Tested the voltage at the ECU for the injectors, which I've read should be 12v, and both feeds are actually 4.8v Anyone got any recommendations for ECU overhaul companies? Thanks again all No specific Ford ECU knowledge but generally there is a constant 12v supply to the injectors and the ECU switches the earth. So possibly it’s a simple wiring problem? Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Dec 15, 2021 13:47:22 GMT
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Yeah I think that's how it works with this one Nick, but the 12v supply is a pair, one for each bank, and comes through the ECU, that's the one with 4.8v on it
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Dec 15, 2021 14:48:04 GMT
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With the injectors plugged in ign on and the engine not running you will get 12V on one side and a lower voltage on the other as the charge flows through the coils of the injectors until the ECU grounds them.
4.8V sounds very close to the 5V reference voltage used for most of the sensors.
I would start again with the checks, firstly get it to tdc on no1 compression stroke and make sure you have a correct timing mark, then fit a strobe and check no1 is firing just before TDC. (no need for deadly accuracy). If no1 checks out and you have the plug leads in the right order they should all be correct (edis does all of this). At this point it should run on easy start etc.
Next for the fuelling check the coolant temperature sensor works OK and is connected properly (this is the major fuelling control for a cold engine when cranked).
Check you have the right fuel pressure (3.5 bar if memory serves me right). Next you need to check the signal to the injectors, you can use a test lamp as mentioned above or even better a oscilloscope . All the ones I have seen have a spike of 12V to open the injector then a lower voltage to hold it open.
with the above it should at least attempt to start.
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Last Edit: Dec 15, 2021 16:24:28 GMT by kevins
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Dec 17, 2021 16:42:02 GMT
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Right, owing to the complete lack of action from the ford setup we've reinstalled the microsquirt. Back to the stage where the car will cough and pop, but wont actually catch and run. He tells me that we did check compression a while ago, and they were all fine, I'm claiming old-timers here because I don't have much recollection of it, but if it'd been bad I would remember. Spraying easystart down the plenum whilst cranking produces further banging but no proper running. Think we'll check the fuel pressure, and maybe the resistor in the crank sensor next Cheers all
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Dec 17, 2021 17:18:04 GMT
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Right, owing to the complete lack of action from the ford setup we've reinstalled the microsquirt. Back to the stage where the car will cough and pop, but wont actually catch and run. He tells me that we did check compression a while ago, and they were all fine, I'm claiming old-timers here because I don't have much recollection of it, but if it'd been bad I would remember. Spraying easystart down the plenum whilst cranking produces further banging but no proper running. Think we'll check the fuel pressure, and maybe the resistor in the crank sensor next Cheers all That all suggests an ignition problem rather than fuel. Especially if it's the same on two very different ECUs
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Dec 17, 2021 17:26:49 GMT
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Not really the same, the ford setup is completely dead, although it did have a spark, the ms makes it cough and bang, but it won't catch. I've ordered a generic fuel pressure tester, and a potentiometer, when they arrive we'll dig a bit further
Edit - it's the same edis 6 though
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16grit
Part of things
Posts: 213
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Dec 17, 2021 17:58:23 GMT
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Edit - it's the same edis 6 though
I think the Microsquirt will run a 6 cylinder on wasted spark and batch fuel....for the sake of a bit of cash spent on some logic level coils and a bit of rewiring, you could try it without the EDIS.....
Glad to see you having another bash though..good luck with it
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Dec 17, 2021 19:01:47 GMT
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Edis will also default to static 10 degrees btdc if it has no timing feed from the ecu so you should be able to get some life out of it standalone as a test.
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16grit
Part of things
Posts: 213
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OK, so what about leaving the EDIS bits to one side and wiring the Megasquirt up as a standalone? Why? The Megasquirt is capable of driving the V6 you have on wasted spark / batch fuel and the trigger wheel setup you have simplifies the install quite a lot. In fact, apart from the usual software fiddling, all you are going to need is a new 6 cylinder wasted spark coil (and maybe some plug cable ends to match the coil fittings), a 1K 1/4W resistor, some shielded cable and a plug..... Your original Ford V6 EDIS install uses a 36 minus 1 tooth wheel and a 'VR' (analogue magnet type) sensor outputting to a two (or maybe a three) pin plug ( - , + , and / or third wire a noise shield (to ECU)). At some point it would help to know which wire on the plug is which (to go to VR+ and VR- and earth pins on the Microsquirt), you could do this for checking for current on the pins of the sensor plug while cranking, a small voltage should just about be visible. Check and acquire the right plug and a length of two core double shielded cable to get this sensor signal to the Microsquirt - with the right plug type - so that you can replace the one in your current loom and leave that standard for another day. The positive is that all this is readily set up and you also know the EDIS system placed the sensor at 60 degree or 6 teeth on your wheel BTDC, you should be able to check this. This is the detail you need when you change from 'EDIS' to '36-1 wheel' on your ignition setup in the software, enter crank angle sensor offset of 60 degrees. Next job is to add a resistor between two of the pins on the Microsquirt to enable the WLED output as your third ignition channel. You don't need to add the fourth ignition channel, only link up pins 28 with the resistor to 17 to (new) coil, as shown here This screen grab confirms exactly what type of resistor you need, 1K 1/4 watt, buy and crimp up one of these Next job is to find a 6 cylinder wasted spark coil / ignitor pack that will work with what you have, something like the one pictured below might be suitable. An an alternative would be to run a a 6 plug coil such as the Bosch Motorsport ones but these require an an external ignitor box (like the Vauxhall V6 ones too).
The VW VR6 one looks like a likely candidate too (not the smaller high voltage version), like this:
Which looks suspiciously like this, which confirms it to be a 'smart coil'
The way most of these coils are set up is that you have three pairs of 2 cylinders going away from the plug for banks one and two and three of cylinders on the engine
That just leaves your injectors, and with that the consensus that with only the two injector outputs you have, you are going to fire them as two banks of three injectors, with cylinders 1, 2 and 3 on the first channel, and 4,5 and 6 on the other...cable size might need to be thought about for this....
I'm sure there are others on here far more expert in this than myself who will jump in and offer their thoughts, look forward to hearing which direction the pair of you are taking it....
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Last Edit: Dec 18, 2021 9:19:23 GMT by 16grit
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Thanks for suggestions and support all 16grit, I'm going to have to sit down when I've got more time and really read what you wrote, I'm pretty much at the limit of my understanding now, without going deeper! Thanks again
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mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,953
Club RR Member Number: 77
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Dec 18, 2021 11:38:38 GMT
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16grit the BOA has a wasted spark coil pack, I run mine directly triggered from an Emerald K3. Still have all the old Ford EEC IV ecu, and edis6 module too
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16grit
Part of things
Posts: 213
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Dec 18, 2021 12:13:41 GMT
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16grit the BOA has a wasted spark coil pack, I run mine directly triggered from an Emerald K3. Still have all the old Ford EEC IV ecu, and edis6 module too
Understood. I was guessing that the original EDIS coil was a high current based thing? My thinking was that with the pecularities of the Microsquirt version of Megasquirt that the OP is running (as a little self contained module with no heat-sink capacity), the *easiest* solution using that would be with a logic rather than a high current based wasted spark coil-pack.
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Dec 18, 2021 12:30:29 GMT
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Top boss performance will probably do you a plug and play loom for it.
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1994 BMW 525i touring 2004 BMW Z4 sorn and broken 1977 Ford Escort 1982 Ford Capri getting restored 1999 Mazda B2500 daily driver.
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