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I remember asking why the battery boxes were made of wood...."because it insulates the batteries" I can understand the need if you've ever seen an old milk float trying to get home on a frosty morning, but even in the 90s there were better insulators....British industry at it's best
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Does anybody remember the big push towards CNG in the States? We are 15 years down the line now and most of those vehicles are scrap due to the tanks being out of test.
Seems all too familiar with the mad push to EVs
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EV's are interesting, from a historic and a technological point of view.
But there is a lot of hype around Electric cars, and that is a problem.
Because once you are caught in a blatant lie, your credibility is shot.
For instance, there was much publicity around a World Record Don Garlits set ( or was going to set ), but when you looked at the actual numbers they were times he was running in the '50s with a modified production engine.
Formula Electric had to change cars mid way through an event to mask the lack of range.
Etc.
But on a positive note, sofar there are 3 EV's that are noteworthy because they set an outright record.
Le Jamais Contente, which was the fastest car on earth in 1899.
The Porsche that set a record at Pikes Peak ( and later in modified form at the Nurburgring, I believe )
The Tesla that was the first car to be shot into space ( by burning a lot of fossil fuel...)
EV technology was left hopelessly behind after 1899.
They have made massive improvements, lately.
But in real numbers they are not nearly there yet ( if ever )
And like Henry Ford said " You cant build a reputation on what you are going to do"
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CNG was pushed very hard here in New Zealand for a while too. Late '70s, early '80s from memory. It's gone now. LPG is not as big as it once was either.
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CNG was pushed very hard here in New Zealand for a while too. Late '70s, early '80s from memory. It's gone now. LPG is not as big as it once was either. I've never understood why you could get a BBQ bottle refilled at the servo in NZ but you couldn't use that pump to put the same gas into your car... I always fancied a CNG car as there was a fuelling point at the end of the road I lived on near Onehunga and somebody had once told me they could do Auckland to Wellington on CNG for about 20 bucks. The idea of the separate gas warrant put me off though. |
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getting a little queasy from all this ev talk... have some antidote...
watch this with the volume down , i guarantee the hairs on the back of your neck wont stand up. repeat the exercise with the volume cranked , this is why those of us with 4 star fumes in our soul will resist "progress".
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'80 s1 924 turbo..hibernating
'80 golf gli cabriolet...doing impression of a skip
'97 pug 106 commuter...continuing cheapness making me smile!
firm believer in the k.i.s.s and f.i.s.h principles.
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dan
Part of things
Posts: 589
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The simple fact is that due to Physics it's more efficient and cheaper to transport an electron than a molecule. When mainstream vehicles are available & the PCP deals stack up for consumers the widespread adoption of EV will soar. How long did it take for everyone to have mobile phones and flat screen televisions, 10 years? The cold economics are that the average ICE car has 30,000 components, 2000 of which move and will do 150k miles before being scrapped. An EV has 5,000 components, 30 of which move and it'll do 500k to 1 million miles before being scrapped. Servicing costs are generally minimal with tyres being the greatest expense. An ICE engine has an efficiency of around 17% while EV motor is around 85%. Transporting Petrol and Diesel around the country, filling up your car so you can carry it with you and then burning it in an engine to mainly release heat, noise and emissions will increasingly be viewed in the same way we look at steam power. I'm no EV fan but I can see it's inevitable as ICE cars are slowly legislated off the road. One of the happy unintended consequences I predict will be a massive boom in Historic Motorsport  Over the years my Minor has had two 1098 A-Series, a 1.8 K-Series, a 1.8 Silver and 2.0 Black top zetec take up residence under the bonnet. It's probably inevitable that it will end up with a bunch of batteries in there at some point if I want to still drive it when and where I want This lecture from 2017 highlights the EV and power issues. Well worth a watch
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Last Edit: Feb 8, 2020 1:15:43 GMT by dan
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When I was in school the rule of thumb efficiency of a 4 stroke gasoline engine was about 25%.
Google says its 20 to 35% today, and 30 to 35% for Diesels.
Also going by a quick Google search, Typical thermal efficiency for utility-scale electrical generators is around 37% for coal and oil-fired plants, and 56 – 60% (LEV) for combined-cycle gas-fired plants.
So that is what it takes to produce the power.
So the actual efficiency is 85% from 37% or 85% from 56 to 60%.
So what does that leave?
About 31% for one and about 50% for the other?
A lithium-ion battery or Li-ion battery (abbreviated as LIB) is a type of rechargeable battery. ... Charge/discharge efficiency, 80–90%.
I bet that matters too.
And also, I'd be really surprised if the batteries last anywhere as long as the rest of the car.
And when they need to be replaced, they'd be cheaper than a set of tires ( or several sets for that matter. )
Please check my math on all of this.
But it seems to me that the gap between ICE's and EV's as far as efficiency, isn't as big as we might think.
The Internal Combustion Engine sets the bar pretty low.
But even then, its still the best and most elegant solution...
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vader
Part of things
Posts: 425 
Club RR Member Number: 93
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You don’t need to throw an ICE away after 10 years. Where will the batteries go when they’re U/S? Buried? I think EV are fine for short run city cars, I’d go as far as to say self charging are ok but not full on EV.
Who will pay for the infrastructure to have a charging point outside each house or multiple points in Flats car parks?
Yes, I’m a dinosaur, I work in London a lot where the Prius is everywhere, or as I like to call them, silent assassins!
When I was a kid I could here a milk float because the bottles rattled
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Triumph Stag
Ducati Supersport
Shanks’s Pony
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Haven't read the whole thread... But battery swapping won't work.
Someone will have undoubtedly mentioned range anxiety, won't be an issue by 2035 and isn't really an issue now in 95% of cases.
Someone else will have mentioned cost. New EVs will achieve price parity with ICEVs within 5 years, and there will be a strong used market by 2035.
Main issue is charging infrastructure and whether the grid can support a sharp increase in demand. Inductive charging, new builds being built with charge points, better infrastructure at fuelling stations and workplaces receiving subsidies to offer charging ports.
The issue is not with the vehicles, OEMs will have done more than enough on the vehicle side by 2035. Its everything else.
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Rob M
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,915
Club RR Member Number: 41
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I have no issues whatsoever about owning an Electric car because it will be a 'modern' and will be used to do all the things I currently get my modern to do. If it is eyeball wrenching out of their sockets fast then all well and good too. I won't bother with the semantics of having a good and competent charging network installed UK wide as, having been in the Telecommunications industry ( now resigned) for 30 years, I know what is involved in creating a network that reaches to all corners of the country. It is hugely expensive, hugely expensive. No, the issue for me is one of 'Do I actually give a monkeys that all new cars here sold in 2035/45/85, or whenever it actually happens, will have to be Electric? No. I am only interested in old cars, retro cars, classic cars, cars with internal combustion engines. To that end, my interest is whether my ride will be legislated off of the road, petrol will continue to be supplied that wont kill the fuel lines and if it going to be feasible to continue enjoying a hobby which has been integral to my life for such a long time. By all means battery up your Minor, Beetle, Mini and anything else that is old but still plentiful but do not assume that it will work with everything out there. Part of my cars soul is its engine, its distinct sound and rumble. If I electrify it I may as well weigh it in, I mean, listen to the Bullitt chase with the sound turned down!  New cars I have no great interest in, old cars I do. Maybe we ought to be debating a way forward, aside from ripping out engines and shoving in batteries and motors, that will allow us to continue our passion for old/modified cars without great hindrance from the powers that be and let those intent on killing the IC engine off in new cars get on with it. |
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Last Edit: Feb 8, 2020 15:16:03 GMT by Rob M
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I think that if you incorporate induction charging into motorways so that it charges the batteries and powers the car whilst on the motor way the lack of range becomes less problematic, most people live with in 50 miles of a motor way so the batteries will reach the motor way, re charge whilst travelling on the motor way then batteries for the last bit, local driving is easily done on the batteries already it's just the longer trips that let down electric cars at the moment. 110 miles for us.... i can see ev working in cities but in more rural areas , doubtful!! I think your comment is one of the most relevant to date, when discussing the issue of EV's. We have exactly the same in Norfolk, from my home to pick up the M11 for London is 93.6 miles according to the AA route planner.
I know that Norfolk is not exactly the epicentre of the known world, but it is a large, rural county and electric charging points aren't going to spring up any time soon. Plus there is the influx of tourists who will turn up and park, so that they can make the most of their holidays, thereby hogging what charging points there are.
I can forsee great problems in trying to go all EV, and that is without thinking about all of the agricultural machinary, which is currently diesel powered. Together with the HGV's that service the farmers.
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duncanmartin
Club Retro Rides Member
Out of retro ownership
Posts: 1,320
Club RR Member Number: 70
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This thread is full of a lot of misconceptions. Full disclosure - I own a Renault Zoe Ze40 - I bought it new in 2017 for just over 17k and I've done about 27,000 miles in it.
To start with the battery swap idea - it's been tried and failed already. Back when Renault were making the Fluence with a range of 60 miles, they worked with an Israeli company called "Better Place" that did battery swapping. No-one used it because they just charged at home, and Better Place went bust. One of the key problems with the Fluence was thermal management of the battery. Since then, manufacturers have changed the way they design EV specific cars to integrate the batteries in the chassis, and most new EVs have liquid cooled batteries (air cooled caused the "rapidgate" Leaf issues, and the ZE50 version of the Zoe is limited to 50kW charging because it uses the aircon).
The other problem, which was one that Better Place didn't have to deal with is battery ownership. When Renault and Nissan were selling cars with leased batteries, swapping your battery for an unknown one from a charge station wasn't a problem. You can't buy a battery leased car any more, and no-one is going to swap a battery worth many thousands of pounds for another with unknown provenance.
Batteries are guaranteed for at least 8 years - they don't have to be replaced every few years. There are companies established to take end of life batteries from the Leaf and the Zoe and turn them into Powerwall type devices, but they are having issues sourcing enough EoL batteries as they are lasting longer than expected.
There are currently a number of different sorts of charging sockets, but they are all standardising in favour of CCS (due to EU rules). Eventually even Nissan (currently Chademo) will have to switch over. This will result in cars without CCS being restricted to having to plan journeys carefully or just staying local (sadly for me - my Zoe uses rapid AC). If battery swapping was ever going to be possible, it would have to have a standard defined and enforced by a giant regulator like the EU.
Cost parity is approaching - the MINI E is slightly cheaper than a Cooper S. Excepting Tesla, battery supply is something that most EV manufacturers are struggling with. Until that is fixed, demand will be higher than supply and new prices will hold up. It'll be interesting if MG introduce another affordable model with more range if they eat the market.
Trucks, agricultural machinery, coaches, and other vehicles that need a lot of pulling power for a long time, or to travel significant distances do not suit the current (pun intended) abilities of batteries. Full EV local busses are already available though.
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