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Sept 1, 2019 18:03:29 GMT
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Been trying to sort a sticky starter issue for a while now and don't seem to be able to get to the bottom of it.
The solenoid always clicks when you turn the key but the motor doesnt turn over.
I have rebuilt the starter. The bushes are fine, no play. I have stripped and cleaned it twice, everything seems good.
I put the armature in the lathe today and skimmed the com and refaced the brushes. I can find nothing wrong with it. The solenoid switches easily with no resistance across the terminals at all (i previously took the solenoid apart and smoothed the contacts out.
I just stripped the ignition switch and its operating fine (its pretty new) and has no resistance across the switches. Shorting the ignition terminals makes no difference.
Engine earth is good, all terminals seem good.
I'm struggling to think what else it could be. Next i will go through the last bit of loom to make sure there is no other connections ive missed that might be bad. Other than that is there anything else that can be wrong with the starter itself?
Sometimes it starts first time, other times its anywhere from 2 to 10 tries before a clicking solenoid results in starter action.
Id fit a new starter but they arent available by the looks of it. I can get this one checked and rebuilt but ive already done it, unless there is a magnet or windings issue.
Anything I'm missing?
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Sept 1, 2019 18:34:50 GMT
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Just to add, it makes no difference if its hot, cold, worked 1 minute ago, just been run for 2 hours or if its been sat for months.
Its random but more often than not it takes a few goes before the starter kicks in.
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Sept 1, 2019 22:02:25 GMT
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When my T25 had an issue like this it was down to connectors to the starter. They all looked ok, but weren't on proper closer inspection by an AA patrol man. Other than that I can offer no other advice.  |
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Starter stickingDez
@dez
Club Retro Rides Member 34
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Sept 1, 2019 22:14:15 GMT
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It sounds more like a solenoid or cabling issue (including earths) than the starter itself. Have you tried jumping the starter directly to the battery with jump leads to see if it eliminates it? Or running a jump lead from neg battery to starter body?
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Last Edit: Sept 1, 2019 22:16:52 GMT by Dez
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Have you tested it off the vehicle with jump leads? Gives you a better idea if it is actually the starter at fault.
Sorry if I’m teaching granny to suck eggs
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It sounds more like a solenoid or cabling issue (including earths) than the starter itself. Have you tried jumping the starter directly to the battery with jump leads to see if it eliminates it? Or running a jump lead from neg battery to starter body? The first thing i checked was the solenoid. The internal push switch operates easily, it doesnt take much throw to hit the switch and the contacts switch immediately to a zero resistance connection. Not much else that could be wrong with it. I havent tried jumping it yet, there are still 2 wiring issue possibilities. There is one unchecked connection in the solenoid trigger wire but the solenoid click isnt lazy so probably not that. The other possibility is the earth but in my experience that normaly causes the starter to be sluggish. This is either spinning fine or not spinning at all. I will check both of those anyway. I'm wondering if its a dead segment on the com or some other issue meaning it wont run the motor if it last stops in a certain position. I don't know if thats possible though. Ive tun the battery down now too so ill pull the battery and the starter again later and do some more testing. |
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Have you tested it off the vehicle with jump leads? Gives you a better idea if it is actually the starter at fault. Sorry if I’m teaching granny to suck eggs Not yet, ran out of time yesterday as i concentrated on what i thought the problem was, but that didnt work 😂. |
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When my T25 had an issue like this it was down to connectors to the starter. They all looked ok, but weren't on proper closer inspection by an AA patrol man. Other than that I can offer no other advice. I was talking to my VW mechanic friend last night and he was saying you get this on t25 some times due to the long cable runs. He was saying its a bit of a bodge but some people run a relay switched live from the battery to the low tension to eliminate that issue. All the main terminals have been checked and are fine, just one more connection in the loom to the solenoid trigger for me to check. |
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Well people say that it’s always the last one you check, which sounds a bit daft to me because surely if you’ve found the fault you stop checking?🧐
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Sept 2, 2019 13:45:27 GMT
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I just bench tested the starter with a partially charged battery and it spins very well. Makes no difference if i power it direct or through the solenoid.
So, where does that leave me. An issue with the power to the starter, an earth issue, or a problem with the trigger wire.
I couldnt get the starter to play up at all on the bench (well, on the dishwasher in the kitchen). Solenoid hits hard, motor spins fast, every single time.
I did however find a source for a replacement uprated starter but it seems that may now be £109 i can spend on either guiness, tyres or engine gaskets.
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Sept 2, 2019 13:58:00 GMT
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When my son relocated his battery to the boot in his 105e anglia we had a similar issue with slow turning over, cured by replacing the battery main cable with welding earth cable. I know this was a rebuild but I would suggest that your previous thought of voltage drop due to cable length may be having an effect.
Also, how good is the battery?
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Sept 2, 2019 14:27:19 GMT
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Battery is decent enough. Ill put my tester on it when its recharged though. Ive not driven it much in the last few months. This issue has been going on a couple of years though, just slowly getting worse.
Its not turning slow, thats the thing. Its not like the starter is struggling. It either cranks just fine or doesnt spin the starter at all. Its not once just been sluggish.
The battery, starter and ignition is all very close together on this. No long runs. Ill check every termination and see if it improves.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Starter stickingDez
@dez
Club Retro Rides Member 34
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Sept 2, 2019 14:54:29 GMT
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I had a similar issue on my falcon not that long ago. Started ok 9 times out of 10 then occasionally would just click. Try again and it would work.
It turned out it was the earth. I put a new earth from battery neg direct to block (that’s how these are wired, then a supplementary earth strap from bellhousing to body to complete the earth circuit) and it worked better than ever before. The starter barely has to turn it over now as it fires immediately, where as previously it wirrred over 2-3 times.
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Sept 2, 2019 15:08:28 GMT
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I had a similar issue on my falcon not that long ago. Started ok 9 times out of 10 then occasionally would just click. Try again and it would work. It turned out it was the earth. I put a new earth from battery neg direct to block (that’s how these are wired, then a supplementary earth strap from bellhousing to body to complete the earth circuit) and it worked better than ever before. The starter barely has to turn it over now as it fires immediately, where as previously it wirrred over 2-3 times. I am making double sure everything is properly spotless this time round. I'm reasonably sure i have some earth cable and teminals in the garage. If i can find it ill make a new block to chassis cable. If there is enough, i may even take it straight to the battery, its pretty close. Hopefully that will sort it. |
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Sept 2, 2019 15:52:46 GMT
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Had a similar issue with the X1/9's starter. Would work sometimes, but other times would just click. Fixed it by using the original trigger wire for the solenoid as a trigger wire for a relay, then ran a direct positive from the main positive post on the starter through the relay back to the solenoid. Dead simple to wire up with a little fusebox inbetween. That was voltage drop over the cabling run from the fusebox, through the ignition switch and all the way to the back of the car. Here's a link to some wiring diagrams in my thread: forum.retro-rides.org/post/2449833/threadEnded up powering the ECUs and ignition from that positive post as well. |
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Last Edit: Sept 2, 2019 15:55:24 GMT by biturbo228
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Sept 2, 2019 17:12:31 GMT
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Checked the garage andni do have some earth cable. Seems i don't have a 3/8 socket to undo the original though so that will have to wait until tomorrow. Shame i didnt know that at the weekend, bootsales are full of imperial sockets. Ill have to go pay for a new one! Had a similar issue with the X1/9's starter. Would work sometimes, but other times would just click. Fixed it by using the original trigger wire for the solenoid as a trigger wire for a relay, then ran a direct positive from the main positive post on the starter through the relay back to the solenoid. Dead simple to wire up with a little fusebox inbetween. That was voltage drop over the cabling run from the fusebox, through the ignition switch and all the way to the back of the car. Here's a link to some wiring diagrams in my thread: forum.retro-rides.org/post/2449833/threadEnded up powering the ECUs and ignition from that positive post as well. I do have a spare relay holder very close by. Once the battery is back in ill check voltage drop to and from the switch. I will relay it if need be. |
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,189
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Starter stickingChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
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Sept 2, 2019 20:42:23 GMT
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I'm going to go with Starter relay or a poor earth . My Dolly Sprint and Stag were curse word without a relay, mainly as the starter solenoid sees quite a drop in voltage by the time 12V arrives to it. With the starter relay, the problems went away on both. This is especially an issue on new starters, where they put less windings in. I ended up fitting a factory starter to my 2CV, as the last owner fitted a £30 special starter motor, where even an fresh earth lead and a decent battery (063 sized for those wondering) couldn't always turn it over. |
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Last Edit: Sept 2, 2019 20:44:29 GMT by ChasR
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Sept 2, 2019 20:57:01 GMT
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I'm going to go with Starter relay or a poor earth . My Dolly Sprint and Stag were curse word without a relay, mainly as the starter solenoid sees quite a drop in voltage by the time 12V arrives to it. With the starter relay, the problems went away on both. This is especially an issue on new starters, where they put less windings in. I ended up fitting a factory starter to my 2CV, as the last owner fitted a £30 special starter motor, where even an fresh earth lead and a decent battery (063 sized for those wondering) couldn't always turn it over. I may well do both the relay and the earth. The bedford cf has notoriously dodgy sockets in the bulkhead that all the wiring goes through, including the starter trigger wire. I have checked that today and its fine, ive already attended to these sockets, but they are not a great design. Ill do them one at a time though as I'm curious to know exactly what the issue is. Although its always possible its a multitude of things that all arent 100%. |
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Sept 4, 2019 21:05:59 GMT
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Are you sure it's not the ring gear?
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Sept 4, 2019 21:07:13 GMT
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Are you sure it's not the ring gear? In what way are you thinking? |
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