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Afternoon chaps and chapettes.
For the last 2 years I've been playing all my car audio through a Bluetooth speaker, which frankly isn't quite cutting it. So I want to bite the bullet and install a full audio system, but am an absolute novice at this!
Car is a 79 passat estate. I'd like to keep the old head unit in place as I want the whole system to be covert. I like my audio fairly loud and clear, but I'm certainly no Southend cruize boi.
I've got space for: - 2x 4 5/8th (assuming I'll have to go 4.5" here) mounted in the front doors to replace the existing 40 year old speakers - 2x 6x4" in the boot lid with the window wiper mechanism (provided it's not deeper than 2.5/3"). - as I'm guessing the above won't offer any bass, probably a slim under seat sub. Although I'd prefer just the 4 speaker setup with future ease of adding under seat sub.
Also room for hidden head unit and amp inside the dash or glovebox.
So, what are my options and limitations?
Not really got a budget. Cheaper is better but I don't want to skimp on quality. Would £200-300 do it?
Cheers for advice and comments!
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Last Edit: May 6, 2019 16:35:56 GMT by arsonist
1979 Mk1 Passat Estate 1.6 LS 1996 Mk3.5 Fiesta 1.3 Classic 1997 Mk1 MX5 1.8i 2005 Mazda 3 TS
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I think a lot depends how you mount the speakers as to how well they work, where you can make an MDF board mounting for them and you will be surprised how much it helps the bass, In some of the older cars with cloth/pvc type headlinings we used to stick tweeters behind the headlining at the top of the B post area
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braaap
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,569
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200-300 pounds should be enough, if you go for used quality parts.
You can keep the orginal radio in the dash for deco and stay on the bluetooth road. But instead of that one speaker you could use an active sub and an amplified front system, fed by a bluetooth adapter via your smartphone.
If I get you right you already have speakers in the doors, so no door cards too good to be cut after 40 years?
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Not seen behind Passat door cards, but if they are the same as 99% of car doors, use some sound deadening on the inside of the door skin and use some more to seal as many of the access holes in the inner skin. This will give you as much bass as those little speakers can give.
Also, if you go for a sub, get some suitably rated capacitors to cut the bass from the door speakers. This will allow them to be clearer and/or go louder and let the sub handle the bass.
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,188
Club RR Member Number: 170
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You're on the right track.
If it were me, I'd do the following.
-Look into the possibility of fitting 13cm speakers into the doors, using spacer rings so as to not butcher your doors. You can get them made from wood yourself using some Marine Ply or MDF. I'd ideally want components, and then you could mount the tweeters at the bottom of the A-Pillars, use adhesive pads to hold the tweeters in place. -Seal the doors with sound deadening as above. I'd also get a decent product like Skinz. It makes such a difference to fitting it on, and IME the results are almost always better than flashing tape etc. -Leave the rear speakers but get an amplifier to run the speakers up front. -Get a sub in the boot, or an under seat item. I prefer a decent sub in the boot myself.
My Merc has a similar setup to the above and it sounds very good. It can be improved upon, but that's mainly down to the factory speaker mountings and Mercedes' rather awkward aiming of the speakers.
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Last Edit: May 12, 2019 5:28:17 GMT by ChasR
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May 13, 2019 12:40:12 GMT
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You're on the right track. If it were me, I'd do the following. -Look into the possibility of fitting 13cm speakers into the doors, using spacer rings so as to not butcher your doors. You can get them made from wood yourself using some Marine Ply or MDF. I'd ideally want components, and then you could mount the tweeters at the bottom of the A-Pillars, use adhesive pads to hold the tweeters in place. -Seal the doors with sound deadening as above. I'd also get a decent product like Skinz. It makes such a difference to fitting it on, and IME the results are almost always better than flashing tape etc. -Leave the rear speakers but get an amplifier to run the speakers up front. -Get a sub in the boot, or an under seat item. I prefer a decent sub in the boot myself. My Merc has a similar setup to the above and it sounds very good. It can be improved upon, but that's mainly down to the factory speaker mountings and Mercedes' rather awkward aiming of the speakers. Thanks for the advice all! So I've done some more digging, and removed the door cards and some trim in the boot door. It turns out I might have a bit more space than previously thought. It's my expectation that I'll always own this car, so as far as keeping door cards and trim 100% original, i'd actually prefer to make some holes in them for speakers to future-proof the car for myself. I've also been having a look at the difference between coaxial and component speakers - leaning towards component but don't know if they'll fit my budget (£200-300 ish) or make a big enough difference for me to bother. (As also need amp, headunit etc within this budget). So now I expect I have room for approx; - 5/6 inch speaker in bottom of both front doors (mid-range speakers?) - about the same in the top of both front doors (tweeters?) - 2x 5x7s in the boot door (woofers?) - Again, underfloor sub - not sure if worth just doing this instead of putting 2x small subs in the tail door trim? But again budget is a bit flexible depending on how much difference I can make doing the above. Any more thoughts would be much appreciated! Ta
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1979 Mk1 Passat Estate 1.6 LS 1996 Mk3.5 Fiesta 1.3 Classic 1997 Mk1 MX5 1.8i 2005 Mazda 3 TS
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braaap
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,569
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May 13, 2019 15:33:34 GMT
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First: you do not really need speakers in the rear. Why? Because your ears are showing frontwards. So one good speaker system in the front doors will be fine. Just in case you always have many people in the rear who rather want to hear your music then your voice, you can still add some speakers in the rear.
And if you always have need for an empty trunk, then go ahead with those underseat subs. If not, bin that idea.
They are just the fifth best (or even worst) option. I´d rather recommend a disconnectable subwoofer box, maybe an active version which means an amplifier is included in the box. Stay away from any illuminated subwoofer box, that´s wasted money that was saved on more important components. Or you could use the spare wheel or at least its location to carry a sub permanently.
How are your door cards? Mint condition? Or already cut for speakers? The find some better ones and keep them just in case you want to sell the car some day. With some door cards you are willing to use, you can stiffen them with additional ply wood from the rear or some damping stuff. In the speaker area you can use mdf rings, but be aware of the window winders.
You can use coaxes, but most people recommend compos. In this case the distance between low/mid rangers and tweeters should not be too big.
Have you decided what you want to go for as a source of sound?
btw. can you provide a pic of your door cards and the door without that card?
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Last Edit: May 13, 2019 15:34:52 GMT by braaap
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May 14, 2019 12:23:11 GMT
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First: you do not really need speakers in the rear. Why? Because your ears are showing frontwards. So one good speaker system in the front doors will be fine. Just in case you always have many people in the rear who rather want to hear your music then your voice, you can still add some speakers in the rear. And if you always have need for an empty trunk, then go ahead with those underseat subs. If not, bin that idea. They are just the fifth best (or even worst) option. I´d rather recommend a disconnectable subwoofer box, maybe an active version which means an amplifier is included in the box. Stay away from any illuminated subwoofer box, that´s wasted money that was saved on more important components. Or you could use the spare wheel or at least its location to carry a sub permanently. How are your door cards? Mint condition? Or already cut for speakers? The find some better ones and keep them just in case you want to sell the car some day. With some door cards you are willing to use, you can stiffen them with additional ply wood from the rear or some damping stuff. In the speaker area you can use mdf rings, but be aware of the window winders. You can use coaxes, but most people recommend compos. In this case the distance between low/mid rangers and tweeters should not be too big. Have you decided what you want to go for as a source of sound? btw. can you provide a pic of your door cards and the door without that card? Ace thanks. So if I put all speakers in the front that will suffice What about the sub? I'd prefer to keep the boot space clear as I use it quite a lot (and sleep in it like a camper occasionally). However the spare wheel area could be an option, although I do keep a full-size spare and tools in there. If I could shift everything (including base speakers) to the doors that would be preferred, again provided I don't sacrifice quality. What minimum size is acceptable for these speakers? I'll get some photos of cards and space behind tonight - the areas I measured were all clear of all window mechanisms and window drop. Door cards are also good condition, but do have a 4.5 inch hole in each for very old speakers. TBH I'm happy to cut into these - I'm highly unlikely to find any others, but could always make/get new ones made in future if needed. I can also add MDF stiffener etc inside once I've settled on sizes and quantities. Ta!
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1979 Mk1 Passat Estate 1.6 LS 1996 Mk3.5 Fiesta 1.3 Classic 1997 Mk1 MX5 1.8i 2005 Mazda 3 TS
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,188
Club RR Member Number: 170
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May 14, 2019 16:37:59 GMT
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Yup, front speakers are all you need. You can make the sub removeable with a decent plug socket . For me, a 12" sub does the trick but quite a few 10" subs are decent. IME, larger subs tend to do lower frequencies. There's no hard or fast rule, but my 8" Rockford Fosgate or Image Dynamics IDQ10 could never get as low as my 12" Phase Linear Aliante. I'd still be wary of cutting into panels too much . I'm thinking of myself here ; I change cars way too often.
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braaap
Posted a lot
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May 14, 2019 17:35:40 GMT
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Let´s ask from a different point: what kind of music do you hear? Rock or Drum&Bass for example? Both have different bass content, so this might answer what your sub woofer should look like.
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ChasR
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May 14, 2019 20:40:19 GMT
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It will to an extent, but it will also influence what kind of setup he is after.
I've had SQ biased setups that could play just about anything. Sure, I had to twiddle the bass level a little but it all helped.
One of the biggest things I've seen with tuning over the years is this transition:
90s ; Passive Crossovers and the dawn of electric "active" Crossovers & EQs 00s: Advanced Active Crossovers, EQs of both the graphic and parametric variety, and time alignment. The latter is a cheat for if you want the system to suit the driver in the car, but a very very good one. This kit however, is not cheap. Google Pioneeer P90-RS with the DEQ Package and the Alpine H800 setups and you'll see what I mean. Towards the end of the 00s, more head units offered almost all of the above in one HU ; My Alpine 9887R is one example of this, as is the Earlier Alpine Glide-Touch HUs like the 9855R. That's an example of 'different' gone wrong or being misunderstood. It's a very modular era. 10s: Times have changed. SQ is not quite so demanded (unless you pay for it), but convenience is. Now you can get Bluetooth streaming, USB connectivity and all of those nice things. Another nice thing is being able to tune your head unit from your phone! That really is a game changer. No longer do you need a seperate processor ; the HUs can now be all at a touch of a phone. This has been handy for me; the Alpine TuneIt App being one example.
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May 14, 2019 22:34:41 GMT
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Awesome replies guys, thanks. Although you're giving me so much more research to do now! As for types of music, annoyingly I listen to most things. However I do sway towards drum and base, tropical house, dubsteb etc, but also with a bit of rock thrown in occasionally. FYI these are my door cards and inside the doors. The top hole on the left (hinge) side of the doors can accommodate a 6x6 inch speaker while the bottom is 7x10 so could accommodate another 6x6 or 6x9.
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Last Edit: May 14, 2019 22:52:35 GMT by arsonist
1979 Mk1 Passat Estate 1.6 LS 1996 Mk3.5 Fiesta 1.3 Classic 1997 Mk1 MX5 1.8i 2005 Mazda 3 TS
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braaap
Posted a lot
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OK, so in your case an old-school solution would be fine: a 3way-compo-system with a 6x9-woofer, a mid chassis and a separate tweeter plus matching crossover network. Problem here: I don´t know if any supplier still offers this today. So you might look for an infinity kappa system in good condition. Or something newer like that, maybe somebody else has an idea? Plus: you might only need a 2way amp and not necessarily a subwoofer as the 6x9 can do a lot down there. Minus: could be hard to find these days, but others will know that better. If you can´t find such a system today you still can buy a 6x9 (mostly coaxes, triaxes or 4-axes these days) plus a component system, but then you would need a 4way amp, ideally with some crossovers onboard. Your doors and door cards are the limiting factors, especially the window winders. Here is my suggestion (sorry for my poor artwork): - remove the plastic foil from the door and its glue rests - flatten out the recessed areas of the door metal with some damping paste (like noise-ex etc.) to get rid of potential vibrations. Then you should also have something between door cards and door metal. In my first advice I thought about adding some wood to the door cards, but then you might have problems with the window winders and the frame around the door opener. You can try a full size piece of flat foam between card and tin, if that doesn´t help enough you can still buy some special damping product to stick on. Instead of the orginal plastic foil at the door which will be destroyed anyway after 40+ years of age you can use any kind of self-adhesive foil. In places where the speaker magnets have to stick through you need to fabricate some holes with reinforcements as protection against disruption and also some water protection, mainly rain water dripping in from above (your door card already shows some water marks in the speaker area). - finally cut a piece of 16mm mdf (check window winder circle) with holes for the speakers, sand down the edges and apply cloth or leather - fix them to door cards with plenty of small screws There used to be some plastic adapters for the window winders to have them stick out half an inch, but they will be very hard to find these days and the quality was curse word, they used to break off at the gear teeth part. But there must be enough space between window winder knob and speaker board /-grille to prevent bloody knuckles.
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May 17, 2019 17:56:26 GMT
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OK, so in your case an old-school solution would be fine: a 3way-compo-system with a 6x9-woofer, a mid chassis and a separate tweeter plus matching crossover network. Problem here: I don´t know if any supplier still offers this today. So you might look for an infinity kappa system in good condition. Or something newer like that, maybe somebody else has an idea? Plus: you might only need a 2way amp and not necessarily a subwoofer as the 6x9 can do a lot down there. Minus: could be hard to find these days, but others will know that better. If you can´t find such a system today you still can buy a 6x9 (mostly coaxes, triaxes or 4-axes these days) plus a component system, but then you would need a 4way amp, ideally with some crossovers onboard. Your doors and door cards are the limiting factors, especially the window winders. Here is my suggestion (sorry for my poor artwork): - remove the plastic foil from the door and its glue rests - flatten out the recessed areas of the door metal with some damping paste (like noise-ex etc.) to get rid of potential vibrations. Then you should also have something between door cards and door metal. In my first advice I thought about adding some wood to the door cards, but then you might have problems with the window winders and the frame around the door opener. You can try a full size piece of flat foam between card and tin, if that doesn´t help enough you can still buy some special damping product to stick on. Instead of the orginal plastic foil at the door which will be destroyed anyway after 40+ years of age you can use any kind of self-adhesive foil. In places where the speaker magnets have to stick through you need to fabricate some holes with reinforcements as protection against disruption and also some water protection, mainly rain water dripping in from above (your door card already shows some water marks in the speaker area). - finally cut a piece of 16mm mdf (check window winder circle) with holes for the speakers, sand down the edges and apply cloth or leather - fix them to door cards with plenty of small screws There used to be some plastic adapters for the window winders to have them stick out half an inch, but they will be very hard to find these days and the quality was curse word, they used to break off at the gear teeth part. But there must be enough space between window winder knob and speaker board /-grille to prevent bloody knuckles. Ta! I think I understand most of that. But some questions! The holes I need to make for the speaker magnets, (for water protection etc) do you mean like a wooden housing that they sit fully inside, which would be inside the door? The 16mm ply, I'm a bit confused about. Is this a full size thick bit of mdf thats the same size and shape as the door cards? And does it sandwich between the doors and door cards? Or are these specifically for the individual speakers? Lastly, the big hashed white space with the 6x9 space - this area fouls the window when it's wound down. What sort of clearance do I realistically need? Thanks in advance!
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Last Edit: May 17, 2019 17:58:00 GMT by arsonist
1979 Mk1 Passat Estate 1.6 LS 1996 Mk3.5 Fiesta 1.3 Classic 1997 Mk1 MX5 1.8i 2005 Mazda 3 TS
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braaap
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,569
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Ta! I think I understand most of that. But some questions! The holes I need to make for the speaker magnets, (for water protection etc) do you mean like a wooden housing that they sit fully inside, which would be inside the door? No wooden housing and not build into the door. Only part of the magnets will peep into the doors, but not very deep. You can use a plastic bag or whatever to make some kind of hood to protect the speaker from dripping water entering the door. As I said replace the old original foil between door metal and door card with some fullsize selfadhesive foil, like the stuff you can decorate furniture with. I don´t know which brands you have, a typical german product name would be d-c-fix (google it if you don´t have it in the UK). There are no more original foils from vw, if you order some, they will only sell some trash bag plastic foil to you, not adhesive. Cover the door metal completely, use a knife and make some cuts where the speaker magnets will beep into the doors. Apply some more of that foil (or ducttape e.g.) to stop the cuts from extending. At the same time stick some kind of roof/hood into the door as a water protection. Or try to use a hairdryer and stretch the foil till it´s a hood. Do not close the opening completely again, the speakers need the door volume to sound properly. My first guess was a full size 3mm board glued to the back of the door card. But that would cause problems with the window winder, so drop this idea. Use some damping paste instead or some fullsize foam mat between door card and metal, just to reduce vibrations of both parts. The 16mm mdf should just be the size shown in picture 2 to mount the speakers to, mounted outside of the door cards, covered in cloth or brown (faux) leather. The first pic shows in white where you should apply some damping paste like noise-x just to fill up the recessed areas to reduce vibrations. Just a layer till you are level with the rest of the door metal. The red circles and oval just show my recommendation for position. But you mount the speakers in the door cards uisng a 16mm mdf board in the lower area, not directly to the door metal. Take care that the speaker magnets don´t reach so deep into the door that they fowl with the window. If the magnet is too deep, you need more layers of mdf, at least in that area. Regard the mounting depth before buying speakers.
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Really helpful responses, thanks. I know exactly what I need to do regarding setting up the doors/backing/sound proofing etc. I've had zero luck finding any 3-way comp speakers with a 6x9 sub driver. Instead it seems the most common 3-way includes a 165mm sub driver. I've found the below Hertz system which seems to tick all boxes and looks like it has good range and power. www.amazon.co.uk/Hertz-ESK-163L-5-3-Way/dp/B00BQ0E1E4/ref=asc_df_B00BQ0E1E4/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310873119586&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=985570223095736964&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9046494&hvtargid=pla-598327579562&psc=1I'll measure up the 165mm speaker width and depth against the recessed area for the window - my hope is to push this speaker out with MDF and sound padding away from the door to avoid fouling the window mechanism and edges of the door panel. Will this cause any issues re-sound? My other option is to locate the 165 driver in the hole below and to the left of the door handle - I can flush mount this so it doesn't obstruct the window winder. The mid and tweeter can then be located in the top left hole together. Would this cause any issues re. sound too? If it does, I can locate the tweeters on the dash - there's room to modify the small round air duct just visible in the above images and hide the speaker in there without destroying any original parts. If I settle on the overall speakers above - what other kit is recommended for this setup? Unsure if I need a 3 or 4 way amp, if I need additional crossovers etc, and then which head unit to pair it with (or requirements of head unit). And any other items needed, e.g.additional fuses, capacitors etc. Really just looking for a basic diagram and kit that will make life a bit easier - I don't want all the bells and whistles, just a good sounding system with standard head unit. Ta in advance, and progress about to start on making new door cards, door insulation etc!
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Last Edit: Jun 4, 2019 17:03:36 GMT by arsonist
1979 Mk1 Passat Estate 1.6 LS 1996 Mk3.5 Fiesta 1.3 Classic 1997 Mk1 MX5 1.8i 2005 Mazda 3 TS
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The other thing to look out for is the output power of the systems, most of the cheaper stuff will provide a peak power rating which doesn't mean a lot except you will only realistically get less than a 1/4 of the power stated, the best figure is when they show power in RMS which is a true listening figure with a set amount of distortion
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braaap
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,569
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Really helpful responses, thanks. I know exactly what I need to do regarding setting up the doors/backing/sound proofing etc. I've had zero luck finding any 3-way comp speakers with a 6x9 sub driver. Instead it seems the most common 3-way includes a 165mm sub driver. I've found the below Hertz system which seems to tick all boxes and looks like it has good range and power. www.amazon.co.uk/Hertz-ESK-163L-5-3-Way/dp/B00BQ0E1E4/ref=asc_df_B00BQ0E1E4/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310873119586&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=985570223095736964&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9046494&hvtargid=pla-598327579562&psc=1I'll measure up the 165mm speaker width and depth against the recessed area for the window - my hope is to push this speaker out with MDF and sound padding away from the door to avoid fouling the window mechanism and edges of the door panel. Will this cause any issues re-sound?My other option is to locate the 165 driver in the hole below and to the left of the door handle - I can flush mount this so it doesn't obstruct the window winder. The mid and tweeter can then be located in the top left hole together. Would this cause any issues re. sound too? If it does, I can locate the tweeters on the dash - there's room to modify the small round air duct just visible in the above images and hide the speaker in there without destroying any original parts. If I settle on the overall speakers above - what other kit is recommended for this setup? Unsure if I need a 3 or 4 way amp, if I need additional crossovers etc, and then which head unit to pair it with (or requirements of head unit). And any other items needed, e.g.additional fuses, capacitors etc. Really just looking for a basic diagram and kit that will make life a bit easier - I don't want all the bells and whistles, just a good sounding system with standard head unit. Ta in advance, and progress about to start on making new door cards, door insulation etc! Sorry for getting back to you so late, I was busy. To answer your first two questions I highlighted in bold: I would not expect any issues from that plan. In general: I recommended 6x9 speakers as they offer more membrane surface than 6,5", so they offer better bass capabilities. If that is enough for you, you could even do without an additional sub-woofer (those underseat units would only have small speakers anyway). Not necessarily a 6x9 would have to be part of a comp system. That set-up seems to have got out of fashion, they were sold back in the days when people plastered their hatchbacks parcel shelves with speaker compos. Nowadays you can still get 6x9 in coax, triax,... set up. One pair of these will do the job, too, combined with another compo system like the one you found. That hertz system comes with a matching crossover, so no need for additional ones. But if you add a pair of 6x9s, I recommend to buy a 4-way amp with included crossovers. Then you could use a lo-pass for the 6x9 (in order to fade out their high frequencies) and the hi-pass for the compo - or leave it off if possible as the compo would have its own crossover already. What you need: - one fuse located no more then about a foot away from the car battery before going to the amp - a head unit of your choice, e.g. one that can receive your mobile phone tunes via bluetooth? Should have cinch connectors for the amp - said 4way amp with internal crossovers - cinch cables, speaker cables, power cables Not necessarily a capacitor, that would become useful when adding an additional sub and amp.
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i'd be very careful of mounting any speaker in the rear lower half of the door as i don't think there will be enough room for it with the window open and the mech moving, a decent 5" component system in the front will work well enough and keep it simple, same with a set of 2 way 6x4 speakers for the rear, most new stereo's have built in crossovers so no need for adding capacitors and complicating things again, same with adding an amp not really necessary and with a decent underseat sub will be more than enough for decent everyday use (avoid the main brand as kenwood and pioneer as from experience they don't actually sound great) i'd look for an enhance or edge underseat sub, i've fitted loads of them and they sound great for the money, as for price £80 will get a bluetooth stereo with all the sound control you need, £50 for a set of components and around £35 for the rear speakers and £120 for the sub
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Its not broken, its resting! Max signature image height: 80px
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braaap
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,569
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Each to their own, you may be an experienced ICE fitter, but I would not agree to
- not enough space in the doors: if there is a wide enough gap between door cards and seats (and in a 70s cars with flat door cards there usually is a big gap, he can build a doorboard deep enough to keep the magnets far away enough from the glass. - rear speakers are overrated and unnecessary IMHO, but I explained that earlier in here. - under seat subs usually have 5" or 6,5" chassis in them, not really delivering lots of deeper bass and whilst driving engine noise will eat up lots of it. - stereo units will only deliver up to 15W, even if most companies print more on them
just my two cents
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