stevietuck
Posted a lot
Never argue with idiots,they drag you down to their level then beat you with their expertise!
Posts: 1,348
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Mar 27, 2019 18:14:05 GMT
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Hi folks, so here is the story... Ok my peugeot 205 needed a couple of brake pipe replacing for the mot. I decided to buy a flaring tool and a roll of pipe and ended up replacing them all. I bled the brakes, got a good pedal, took it for a spin and the pedal sank straight to the floor. Ok so i bled them again and again and again and every time it was the same,loads of air bled out, good pedal but when i drove it the pedal went straight to the floor. I have put about two liters of fluid through the system now and every time I'm getting loads of air coming out. When i drive the car if i pump the pedal i get pressure at the pedal but the brakes still don't feel like they are working. I think there must be air getting in to the system but there is no fluid leaking out so i just don't get it. Does anyone have any ideas? could it be the master cylinder? Cheers steve.
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Mar 27, 2019 20:06:06 GMT
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Hi, Possibly yes, the seal may have rolled over. In normal use the travel of the piston is not very far and a slight wear ridge can form, then when you bleed the brakes you use full travel and as the seal goes over the ridge it rolls over so then doesn't function properly.
Colin
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Brake bleeding problems.slater
@slater
Club Retro Rides Member 78
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Yeh master cylinder if theres no fluid leaking anywhere
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stevietuck
Posted a lot
Never argue with idiots,they drag you down to their level then beat you with their expertise!
Posts: 1,348
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Mar 28, 2019 12:39:56 GMT
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Thanks guys
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Mar 28, 2019 17:56:15 GMT
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check your wheel cylinders.
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Mar 28, 2019 18:36:46 GMT
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I had this on my 1988 16v Scirocco. Turned out the pipes I had made didn't have sufficient 'roll' on the flare. Re-did them and all was good. Used nearly 5litres of fluid before it clicked with me. Exactly the same symptoms you had. there are different types of flare. www.fedhillusa.com/?page=flare
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Last Edit: Mar 28, 2019 18:37:13 GMT by duggers
Needs a bigger hammer mate.......
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Brake bleeding problems.slater
@slater
Club Retro Rides Member 78
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Re the master cylinder. It is quite common for them to go once you start messing with other parts of the system. The seals usually only travel over a small section of the cylinder under normal use but once you start removing parts and re-bleeding they travel over the whole length which may have corroded etc over time and this can damage the seals.
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the pressure bleeders like the eezibleed are good for this , can bleed the car without pumping the pedal
surley if the flares are bad you see fluid dripping , did you use a quality tool to flare them , its not something you want to bodge up
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91 golf g60, 89 golf 16v , 88 polo breadvan
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stevietuck
Posted a lot
Never argue with idiots,they drag you down to their level then beat you with their expertise!
Posts: 1,348
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Mar 29, 2019 21:24:59 GMT
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I think it is a seally flaring tool. I should have said the car has been off the road for 18 months and it also failed on inbalanced brakes across axle. Surly if the flares/ joints are bad there would be fluid leaking too? I've ordered a new master cylinder so hopefully it will solve the problem. Iv also bought an easybleed kit too. Cheers guys.
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Mar 29, 2019 22:54:13 GMT
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If you are losing fluid and it's not got any obvious leaks then it's more than likely the master cylinder leaking into the servo. Even if the rear slaves had gone you'd start to see fluid leaking from the drums if you'd put enough fluid through it.
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,188
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Brake bleeding problems.ChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
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I think it is a seally flaring tool. I should have said the car has been off the road for 18 months and it also failed on inbalanced brakes across axle. Surly if the flares/ joints are bad there would be fluid leaking too? I've ordered a new master cylinder so hopefully it will solve the problem. Iv also bought an easybleed kit too. Cheers guys. Depends. They could be letting in air on the return stroke. Unlikely, but you never know. I'd say master cylinder myself but I'd ask a couple of questions. -Did you let the master cylinder run dry at all? -How did you bleed in. IME air bleeding is about the only way to get a decent bleed. There are times where I need an assistant, but generally air bleeding works well. I use a Laser pumper these days which has proved invaluable.
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stevietuck
Posted a lot
Never argue with idiots,they drag you down to their level then beat you with their expertise!
Posts: 1,348
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Ok so iv bleed the brakes on the car quite a few times in the past buy pumping the pedal method and this time i used the pump the pedal method in fact that's the only method iv ever used on any car. I just bought the easybleed kit a few days ago but i think the damage had already been done. Cheers steve.
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,188
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Brake bleeding problems.ChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
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Ok so iv bleed the brakes on the car quite a few times in the past buy pumping the pedal method and this time i used the pump the pedal method in fact that's the only method iv ever used on any car. I just bought the easybleed kit a few days ago but i think the damage had already been done. Cheers steve. One man? I tried that on the Merc with a jar full of fluid. I had a much better pedal with a friend to be on the pedal. I couldn’t use my air bleeder as my reservoir seals require replacement. But I plan to do that soon .
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Mar 30, 2019 11:34:56 GMT
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IME air bleeding is about the only way to get a decent bleed. I've found vacuum to be better but I dare say there's an element of personal preference in it (and whether you have a compressor). The type that use air pressure to force the fluid through can introduce tiny bubbles whereas the type that uses a vacuum to draw it through can't. I will admit I'm using the car for competition and am really picky about how the pedal feels (confidence = time) but I can bleed a system from dry (on my own) with my vacuum bleeder and it's perfect. With the Easibleed I used previously it always needed a few pedal strokes to finish off and that required a glamourous assistant.
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Last Edit: Mar 30, 2019 11:35:59 GMT by rallyboy
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stevietuck
Posted a lot
Never argue with idiots,they drag you down to their level then beat you with their expertise!
Posts: 1,348
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Mar 30, 2019 11:43:13 GMT
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When pumping pedal iv always done it two man, in fact the only reason i bought the easybleed is because i didn't have a second man. Yeah i know billy no mates lol.
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Mar 30, 2019 14:51:52 GMT
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I use to use an easybleed but as mentioned above sometimes it would need a bit of pump bleeding to get the last bit of air out.
I now tend to use the old school method of a jar and a bit of pipe.
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Mar 30, 2019 16:17:13 GMT
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Used to use an Eezibleed but upgraded to a Sealey pump pressurised bleeder, by far the better of the two as you don't have to balance a spare deflated to 20psi on top fo the engine. I never got drips or loss of fluid it just allowed enough air back in if the flares are not quite right.
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Needs a bigger hammer mate.......
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snipes
Part of things
Posts: 10
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Mar 31, 2019 12:24:21 GMT
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You really need to clamp all the flexis and see if you get a pedal. If not you have a master cylinder issue. I'd you do, declamp one at a time to isolate which corner the issue is at.
Unless there is an abs circuit to complicate things it's nearly always a master cylinder issue.
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stevietuck
Posted a lot
Never argue with idiots,they drag you down to their level then beat you with their expertise!
Posts: 1,348
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So i fitted the new master cylinder today, bled the brakes and its exactly the bloody same I don't get it.
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,188
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Brake bleeding problems.ChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
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Flaring of the lines or improper bleeding.
As per duggers, an Eezibleed is great but a faff. The Sealey pressure type systems (or in my case the Laser version) makes the job a doddle.
I don't mind using a second person but it can bring about issues:
1) I've had issues where people don't listen to the commands they give you. I'm talking about pumping the pedal like mad as you have the nipple open, despite you telling them to hold position. In that case, the car had super corroded brake nipples, making bleeding fiddly to say the least. 2) Getting a second person. At home it wasn't too bad. At the unit, it's a bit of a way from people, which means it can take a while to bleed brakes otherwise. 3) As another poster said, you have less chance of stuffing up your master cylinder ; with pumping, there is a good chance you'll ruin the seals due to the piston going into a rusty area that it normally does not travel in.
Like another poster, I've heard that vacuum bleeding is fine, but I'd not had the microbubble issues with pressure bleeding, but I do wonder if excessive pressures can cause that.
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Last Edit: Apr 1, 2019 20:39:11 GMT by ChasR
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