|
|
|
Mar 12, 2019 13:06:11 GMT
|
|
I have always used solder and never had a problem, I have had 2 of my cars for 25 years one over 100,000 miles. The key thing whatever you use is to support the joint properly and seal it afterwards, I will always try to cut a wire back to the loom and make the connection, after soldering and shrink wrapping this is then tapped back into the loom. It's also worth checking there are no spikes of solder at the joint and filling any that occur back they can penetrate the insulation with inevitable issues.
The crimp connectors with solder inside and shrink wrap on the outside are what most OEM's recommend for loom repairs, I have used them once or twice they seem pretty good but they are pretty expensive.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2019 12:55:33 GMT
|
|
Whichever one you are more capable of doing correctly is the answer.
If you have the correct tools and crimps for the exact application then crimping would be best and is what the modern factory harnesses do when they split off wires like ground and common power. Chances are we don't have the correct tools for this.
Soldering is well documented and if you take the time to research a few common methods, understand flux and deal with the negatives of it, then a good soldering job is more attainable for most of us.
I agree with the above person who said he never saw a solder joint fail. I agree yet I have sure seen some ugly corroded masses after years of being buried in a damp acid flux black tape matrix. Crimps fail because we use the commercial butt-splices and cheap crimpers that are sold at the hobby stores.
|
| |
|
|
Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
|
joining wiresPhil H
@philhoward
Club Retro Rides Member 133
|
Mar 13, 2019 18:21:51 GMT
|
|
In short, a correctly made and suitable joint is fine irrespective of the method used. The problem is in the execution - be it bad soldering technique, wrong sized crimps (they come in many different sizes for the wire gauge) or wrong (or poor quality) tools.
No join should be made where movement can be experienced - make it before or after where flex might be needed.
|
| |
|
|
Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
|
joining wiresDez
@dez
Club Retro Rides Member 34
|
Mar 14, 2019 19:58:59 GMT
|
Whichever one you are more capable of doing correctly is the answer. If you have the correct tools and crimps for the exact application then crimping would be best and is what the modern factory harnesses do when they split off wires like ground and common power. Chances are we don't have the correct tools for this. Soldering is well documented and if you take the time to research a few common methods, understand flux and deal with the negatives of it, then a good soldering job is more attainable for most of us. I agree with the above person who said he never saw a solder joint fail. I agree yet I have sure seen some ugly corroded masses after years of being buried in a damp acid flux black tape matrix. Crimps fail because we use the commercial butt-splices and cheap crimpers that are sold at the hobby stores. I now don’t use additional acid based flux, on the advice of the ‘expert’ at rapid electronics, for the reasons you state. He said that there basically isn’t any reason to use additional flux on freshly stripped wires, which makes sense. I only use preflux solder and still get good joints without that flux ‘gunk’ you get otherwise. |
| |
|
|
Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
|
joining wiresDez
@dez
Club Retro Rides Member 34
|
Mar 14, 2019 20:03:14 GMT
|
|
|
| |
Last Edit: Mar 14, 2019 20:12:32 GMT by Dez
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 14, 2019 20:11:02 GMT
|
what is best to cover a wiring loom with? My engine loom ive used the fabric type tape, it seems a lot better than black tape ive used before, as you can get it off if you need, while the black tape is a pain..  |
| |
|
|
Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,655
Club RR Member Number: 39
|
joining wiresDarkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
|
Mar 14, 2019 20:24:20 GMT
|
I just use PVC loom tape. As for solder joints I make them all the time and never had an issue - using the below method then solder and two layers of heat shrink.   |
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 14, 2019 20:27:57 GMT
|
|
until i started this thread, when soldering ive only ever seen where prople twist each end, then twist them together. Maybe part of the problem? ALso ive seen people twist the ends, then put solder on them seperatly, put them close together and reheat. I don't like the second version at all
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 15, 2019 10:21:29 GMT
|
I push mine together like first pic of darkspeed above but then twist the joint bit so it wraps into itself, I don't use the additional wire. Will try to do a pic later on to maybe better explain how I do it. Takes a knack/practice to get it right. I also have a little thing with clamps which I use to hold the joint together while soldering if they show the desire to undo themselves. It simply holds the wires in a straight line and keeps the jointed area together while soldering. Mostly don't use it, just for the difficult swear word wires that want to jump apart... A pic of your wire holding straight tool would be good please. |
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 15, 2019 10:53:37 GMT
|
|
I'm assuming it'll be a normal soldering station, magnifying glass and some crocodile clips.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 15, 2019 12:00:32 GMT
|
|
Is it a buch of earths joining to the body/earthing point?
if so then I would use ring terminals and pair a couple up if required.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 15, 2019 16:14:13 GMT
|
|
If soldering is better why do all major manufacturers crimp?
Solder leads to a fatigue point where the solder finishes and the wire starts, not to mention the flux leaves an acid layer on the wires leading to oxidation of the wires under the sheathing.
PROPER crimping using PROPER crimping tools is the only way to do it correctly. Crimping leaves the wires flexible so no fatigue sets in.
Use good quality connectors - not the shyte blue/red/yellow ones from Halfrauds but decent brass spade terminals, preferably non insulated and adhesive heat shrink tube to weatherproof them where required.
Solder is good & strong, but has negatives that good crimping does not.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 15, 2019 17:24:39 GMT
|
If soldering is better why do all major manufacturers crimp? Mass production. Best cost for a product that is good enough to be certain to be reliable throughout the warranty period (and reasonably reliable beyond that to protect the manufacturers reputation). Best cost usually means automated, very fast and very repeatable. When manufacturers choose to crimp they arent using a pair of £20 crimp pliers and some heatshrink, they can spend many many thousands on a machine and tooling setup and also spend loads on testing before releasing anything onto the market. Its a bit like someone plug welding the seam of a new sill onto an old car, the manufacturer used a £100k spotwelding robot, doesnt mean that the a £300 MIG isnt the best process for you and me. |
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 15, 2019 17:53:42 GMT
|
|
I could argue that they could spend many thousands on an automated soldered as well, but they don't. It's proven that solder joints produce stress points in the wire that can fatigue and fail so they chose the solution that is more reliable.
My crimpers were approx £100 when I bought them, cost a fair bit more now but they crimp perfectly every time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 15, 2019 19:11:17 GMT
|
I could argue that they could spend many thousands on an automated soldered as well, but they don't. It's proven that solder joints produce stress points in the wire that can fatigue and fail so they chose the solution that is more reliable. My crimpers were approx £100 when I bought them, cost a fair bit more now but they crimp perfectly every time. I accept your point, and solder may well have some disadvantages, I'm no expert in that. I'm only commenting on the argument that manufacturers using something necessarily means its the best choice for reliability. What I can say for certain from a lot of personal experience is that that manufacturers do not choose the more reliable design, they choose the most cost effective design that meets the target for reliability and various other things. The automotive industry* is so unbelievably tightly screwed down money wise that there is no chance of a 1 penny more costly solution being used if its not needed to meet regulations, warranty requirement or customer expectations. * prestige brands excluded. Sorry for going on a bit, and off on a tangent. |
| |
|
|
Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
|
joining wiresPhil H
@philhoward
Club Retro Rides Member 133
|
Mar 15, 2019 21:10:00 GMT
|
|
To throw another one into the mix - all of the Military spec stuff I’ve ever worked on (granted, this was 20 years ago) was soldered..but they knew about strain reliefs and supporting looms a lot better than automotive. Having done cable lacing as an apprentice, the first car loom I “investigated” I was convinced was a faulty/Friday one given the state of the thing in comparison.
As to saving 1p here and there? Applies to all brands, prestige or otherwise.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 15, 2019 22:51:25 GMT
|
|
I've pulled apart many a Merc and BMW loom for engine conversions, and I can tell you there are quite a few soldered connections hidden in those.
As for the comment about race and rally cars not having soldered joints, if it's a trackside repair we solder and heatshrink. If it's an alteration in the shop we make a patch harness from the nearest multiplug for the complete wire run, crimp connectors are not normally used to add wiring.
|
| |
1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp
1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon
1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered!
1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 17, 2019 22:41:59 GMT
|
|
Thats very simple and effective, lots of times that would have made joining wires easier especially in a tight spot with no free hands.
I might make one next time I'm soldering.
Thanks for posting.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I always crimp wherever possible - much better vibration and fatigue resistance on a crimped joint. However, a good one of either is preferable over a poor one of the other...
|
| |
|
|
ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,189
Club RR Member Number: 170
|
joining wiresChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
|
|
|
Whenever anyone on this thread says they have had a crimp fail, what kind of crimping tool was used? As if it was a ratcheting type, I've not had one fail or pull out on the various cars I have used them on. The el cheapo pressed steel crimps however, within the first minute of crimping them as the jaws are fox picture!  Ratchet tool. Yup, I was pretty curse word off when they were still falling out, and that was still using the red sized crimps. It really annoyed me how people kept on going on about "crimping or nothing". After all, I've repaired previously crimped wires with solder on LPG systems, and taken those cars up to 300k from 100k without a single fault. I did ask a friend who is an advocate of crimping and told him the above. He did come back with something interesting. In short, I've almost always used to Halfords crimps. They're curse word. When you look at their design, they are a pretty curse word crimp, even if you do use the best crimpers ; the connection part is too small, and the plastic will always be too weak to hold the wire in place, thus they will fall out. Since I've gone with the 'OE' style crimps with different feet, and the normal crimps but from a different supplier, I must admit I've seen an improvement in the connections. Will they last as long as my previously soldered connections? Time will tell but I'll say yes for now  . I'm with mk2c, you don't find soldered joins on top end race or rally cars. Simple? Speed, speed and speed. Coming from a development field, you'd be surprised how many late changes are put in, even frighteningly close to vehicle/engine launches. I can crimp a terminal, even to an OE style in about a minute. It takes me a while longer to solder them, possibly twice as long I'd say. |
| |
|
|
|
|
. 