60six
Posted a lot
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Posts: 1,654
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Jan 25, 2019 23:13:40 GMT
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I don't have any real fun with my cars unless I play with them - Ever since discovering turbos and the total fascination and wonder of them, I am obsessed how such a tiny precision built unit with very few parts can make such a huge difference, especially when subjected to the amount of abuse hurled at them. With my 1990 SAAB Full pressure turbo, on 277,000 miles, I purchased another engine thinking this one was on it's last legs (on a cold day, when it starts it really don't sound good - fine when warm) - So to have fun until what I thought the inevitable, I rebuilt the Mitsubishi TD04 with a £60 rebuild kit, got it balanced, found my 3 inch JT full system exhaust, relocated battery, then found many a post by someone named 'ejenner' with various tuning tips on these and one of them was 'Advance the ignition until it starts to sound like it's going to stall, back it off a bit, Tighten the distributor bolt, bypass the APC with an adjustable valve between the wastegate and the BPC (boost pressure control) valve, Install a Knock sensor LED and keep your eye on it, then you will have a very quick old car'. This dude gets slated by the other saab people, banned from nearly all the other sites and thus could never get in touch with him - Only lives in Bromley as well .... That was two years ago and it has been the most fun I have ever had in a car .... Then discovered the ignition advance had never been working and now it's even more loony. I give it oil, plug, filter changes yearly and the car seems perfectly happy with this setup, apart from getting through clutches. Now I am attempting the same on a 9000 2.3 Full pressure turbo, and now I have to understand tuning maps, the t5 engine management system, and purchase EGT valves (exhaust gas temp), wideband lambda sensors with gauges, AEM air fuel ratio gauge, GT2871R .86 turbo (which I already had) and have to have a monitoring setup via the CANBUS controller logging info so I can then get the most out of it. The 900 has the Lucas injection setup, same as on Rover V8's and does not require me to play with it. The 9000 has the SAAB T5.5 Engine management which needs a lot more insight and skill to get more out of it. No idea what BHP the 900 is running, the 9000 may get up to 350 BHP - Is this the sole reason for the added complication? Why is a 900 a quick tweak and a 9000 a mission?
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Some 9000's, a 900, an RX8 & a beetle
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sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
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Tuning a car with a turbosowen
@sowen
Club Retro Rides Member 24
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Probably not a huge help to you but I've fitted an early Saab 9000 2.3 lump into my Rover, bought the engine without any wiring loom, throttle body, ecu etc, so just patched my existing Megasquirt onto the engine (everything lined up and plugged in) and got it running like that. The amount of people getting upset and offended because I didn't use Saab's own efi system!
From what I gather the Saab's Trionic fuel injection system is meant to be very very good, and there are ways to re-tune the ecu without too much drama. The older Lucas/Bosch injection systems are quite crude so seem to respond to crude adjustments.
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,188
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Tuning a car with a turboChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
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Jan 27, 2019 11:34:10 GMT
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ejenner probably got slated as what he suggested could potentially destroy an engine, albeit many have got away with it OTOH ; did someone say Schroedingers cat? Some have here with the bills to show for it ; luckyseven is one of them, albeit that was more to do with his mapper . With turbo tuning, especially some engines like the Subaru flat 4s and definitely the rotaries, do EJenner's method and you'll very quickly have a dead engine due to an intolerance to survive pinking with boost ; You only have to look at like why Renault 5 GT Turbos are so rare now . It's also potentially the reason my RST is now on engine no. 3 (threw a rod out of a Power Engineering engine, not exactly a mickey mouse build). Other members on here who have been 'slated' have blown up engines as well, in some case for around £1k for even finding a secondhand engine ; ouch! He also had some other non-motoring interesting views; but that's not for here . That said, there's nowt wrong with standalone systems and fitting MBCs but of course you are losing a layer of security but it's nothing meticulous care can get around . The 9000 is probably more of a mission as, since sowen may say, the ECU accounts for more variables, loads, and other failsafes put in. Without sounding like that guy much more, is it really that much of an issue to get a remap off the shelf via a reputable bloke or is it a case of not wanting to part with the cash?
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60six
Posted a lot
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Posts: 1,654
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Jan 27, 2019 13:18:40 GMT
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Thanks for the info, ChasR - Schroedinger's Car! Never seen someone so universally banned - His info worked for me. My 900 runs fine this setup, but the lucas is a basic controller, whereas T5.5 was technologically far more advanced, and whereas the timing is controlled by it along with a lot of other stuff - I just didn't expect that much of a technological jump in 6 years between cars. Makes sense though. Thanks sowen! I work in IT and regularly fix old routers using similar methods to re-writing the ECU on the T5.5 - I still have to take the ECU out the car to do it, but I can possibly update the map using a CAN controller instead to save the hassle. Currently fitting the gauges so I have an idea of what to do, have read the TSuite info and it looks like I need to live log via CAN to make a map myself - I would give it to a tuning place but where is the fun in that? I think 300 quid is far too much - I know they need to make money but I love finding this stuff out myself - Just waiting for an EGT sensor and gauge and a CAN to USB adapter.
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Some 9000's, a 900, an RX8 & a beetle
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,188
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Tuning a car with a turboChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
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Jan 27, 2019 18:07:25 GMT
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Thanks for the info, ChasR - Schroedinger's Car! Never seen someone so universally banned - His info worked for me. My 900 runs fine this setup, but the lucas is a basic controller, whereas T5.5 was technologically far more advanced, and whereas the timing is controlled by it along with a lot of other stuff - I just didn't expect that much of a technological jump in 6 years between cars. Makes sense though. Thanks sowen! I work in IT and regularly fix old routers using similar methods to re-writing the ECU on the T5.5 - I still have to take the ECU out the car to do it, but I can possibly update the map using a CAN controller instead to save the hassle. Currently fitting the gauges so I have an idea of what to do, have read the TSuite info and it looks like I need to live log via CAN to make a map myself - I would give it to a tuning place but where is the fun in that? I think 300 quid is far too much - I know they need to make money but I love finding this stuff out myself - Just waiting for an EGT sensor and gauge and a CAN to USB adapter. I have. Google theoldvolkshome and VZi . It's amazing what non-car stuff can do. There are others too. I only remember as I moderated forums before. There is more to people getting thrown off just because their advise may be questionable to some . I guess why I was erring on the side of caution is because most people are happy to dish out advice ; not many would deal with the repercussions, however (i.e an engine going bang), and I've seen that far too many times. But if you fancy a play and are aware of the risks, there's no harm in that . What fuel ratios were you planning to aim for etc.?
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I found getting a Saab with T5 management remapped really easy. I sent Jules from uksaabs.co.uk £50 and he posted me a remapped unit.
Good luck with it. Quick old Saabs are tremendous fun.
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Jaguar S-Type 3.0 SE
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Jan 28, 2019 15:52:59 GMT
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have a look on facebook. there is a group on there, saabconversions. A fella on there, Andrew Crank, is a bit of a god with t5 mapping, and he isn't dear. Tuning a B204 or B234 is actually really easy, bigger turbo, bigger injectors, 3 bar map sensor and a good map. I went from 200hp to 350 for under £500
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Its not broken, its resting! Max signature image height: 80px
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60six
Posted a lot
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Posts: 1,654
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Jan 29, 2019 12:17:28 GMT
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ChasR - AFR was to make sure it wasn't too lean over certain revs, and tuning help - I know what the best AFR would be but apparently I have a lot of other factors to take into consideration! incarsolutions I can't use facebook thankfully, but a map for under 500 is too much incentive to do it myself - The car cost the same as that.
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Some 9000's, a 900, an RX8 & a beetle
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Jan 29, 2019 13:16:13 GMT
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my whole build was under 500, turbo, map sensor, injectors and the map. map was about 60
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Its not broken, its resting! Max signature image height: 80px
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