foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,376
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just some musings to generate response from ppl who know about these things. Years ago I spent a lot of time doing-up my Polo breadvan. One of mods was Koni/Spax shocks and lowering springs. Huge disappointment when I drove the car it felt awful so stuck it in garage and it's been there since. Can't actually remember exactly all the parts I bought but got some coilovers for rear which turned out to be for a Mk1 Golf and look way too big but as it stands it's got the Koni adjustables upfront and Spax adjustable on rear. front springs are Jamex 35(?)mm lowering and at back I have the standard spring with about 3 coils cut off as the Jamex ones didn't seem to lower it at all. Well after all these years I think I've worked out the problem... I was aware that the shocks were not shortened ones but just thought the car would sit down lower and take the rods down with it. Now I realise that on any car, even with standard suspension, the springs are longer than the rods and need to be compressed a fair bit to get the caps/nuts on. So when I was putting lowering springs on with standard shocks the springs weren't being compressed (other than by the weight of the by car) hence the fact it didn't look like it was getting lower, hence the decision to chop 3 coils off and it still not looking low at back as even this spring isn't much shorter than a compressed standard one. So if you can't buy shorter shocks for the shorter springs can you make them shorter by having more of the rod protruding above the bodywork? I guess that's what the caps do. If that's the case they can't be a great idea for standard length springs as they might compress them too far. Another option I guess is to raise the top of turrets in car and use standard springs and shocks. This seems attractive as it means you keep standard suspension feel but get the low looks. Last point. Why do springs need to be compressed to work properly, I always thought they were just there to absorb bumps, by compressing, so why would they need to already be under compression. The front ones on my Mondeo are under a huge amount of compression. Scary. takes hours to wind them down far enough with hand tools
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Last Edit: Nov 10, 2018 18:35:52 GMT by foxy99
1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP 1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up 1984 VW Polo breadvan 1970s Yamaha Twins (4) 1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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Your spring is what the weight of the car sits on. It is the bouncy bit. A spring does not absorb an impact (from a bump), it transfers it somewhere else. The damper (shock absorber) is the part that does, well, what it's called. It is a compressible gas or fluid that is slow to react - so it does exactly that - absorbs shocks. It's also the damper in that it retains control of the spring which just wants to bounce up and down. It 'dampens' the otherwise uncontrolled reaction of the coiled spring. The damper would just sink down without the spring, so the spring is of course what the cars weight rests on. Regarding the spring being under compression, there are a few factors. Firstly you want some load on it because you never want the spring to be loose and become unseated. So even at full extension of the damper it should have a little. Also as springs are progressive, i.e. it takes increasingly more force to squeeze the coils together - by having them under some compression you determine at what force the springs start to work (react). The force is the measure of the impact (of pothole or bump) which can be worked out by the physical size variation of whatever the tyre impacts, coupled with car mass and speed. I'm not smart enough to give you that formula though. And also on a road-car there is an element of droop, which is how far the suspension extends downwards (think pothole) which you can see when you jack up a standard car versus jacking up a car on stiff coilovers. Having the spring compressed will determine the rate the spring opens and thereby pushes downwards (spring pushes upwards into the car body/topmount, opposite spring force pushes down the suspension arm/hub, pushing the wheel to the ground) to extend the damper when it needs to, which is to promote a smoother ride. It's essentially "preload".
Yes you can extend a spring perch (or topmount perch) upwards, or indeed move a bottom suspension mount downwards. Or use a different topmount if the spring is mounted on the shock absorber unit (a coil-over type) to differ the position where the spring top coil sits relative the shock. Or modify the suspension mountings to use a different shock absorber if you have one of the right length.
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,674
Club RR Member Number: 39
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Nov 10, 2018 11:10:05 GMT
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Just to add to the mass of confusion around this very complex subject.
The spring IS the shock absorber - the shock absorber - misnomer - is a damper - a damper does not absorb shocks* - If you hit one with a sledge hammer it will not absorb that shock very well - it does its job by keeping control of the spring - the spring is an energy storage device, it stores the energy of the shock - the damper works to provide a control over the rate at which the spring absorbs and dissipates that stored energy. *As part of the control of the spring the damper will absorb some of that energy during the storage and release process - converted to heat into the damper fluid.
That's why springs are potentially dangerous and dampers are not. The energy of the bump goes into(absorbed by)the spring and if uncontrolled straight back out again. Hit a spring with a sledge hammer and the shock will be absorbed and immediately released back again.
As for the OP and his spring dilemma - That requires a huge post about damper rod lengths spring rates and open and closed lengths the original parameter of the OEM system etc.
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,674
Club RR Member Number: 39
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Nov 10, 2018 11:55:35 GMT
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So when I was putting lowering springs on with standard shocks the springs weren't being compressed (other than by the weight of the by car) hence the fact it didn't look like it was getting lower, hence the decision to chop 3 coils off and it still not looking low at back as even this spring isn't much shorter than a compressed standard one. A spring will only ever be compressed by the weight of the body unless to maintain that body at a given height the spring requires to be preloaded. a 10" 100lb rate spring contained between 10" seats when loaded with a 300lb mass will compress 3" - (assumming a linear rate spring before anyone chimes in) Now if we only want 2" of compression under load for the same spring seat distance we fit an 11" 100lb rate spring which preloads it 100lb of force Now when loaded with 300lb it oly compresses 2" A ten coil 10" spring rated at 100lb is 10 1000lb springs in series - so 10 coils 10" 100lb - with 300 lbs of force = compresses 3" - 7" 7 coils 7" 142lb - with 300 lbs of force = compressed 2" - 5" As you cut a coil off the spring the rate increases reducing lowering effect accordingly. You will also note that you have increased the spring rate 40% This does not take into account any suspension leverage ratios - this is purely the spring compressions - if you apply leverage ratios, lean angles which as well as changing the spring rates may introduce falling or rising rates to the spring during compression it make significant differences to the required calculations. The correct way to determine a suspension system on a car is to approach it from first principles. Whats are the sprung corner weights and what do you want to achieve in respect of performance and what compromises are you willing to accept to achieve this. Now if you fit high rate shorter springs So you get an 9" spring - yay thats going to be much lower - with a 40% increase in rate - Yay much stiffer 9" spring 140lb rate - compression 2" - 7" - long same length and height as the old 10" 100lb spring.
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,674
Club RR Member Number: 39
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Nov 10, 2018 12:08:00 GMT
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Dampers.
So we have fitted 40% uprated springs to the existing OEM damper - spring that are 40% stronger that the original springs that OEM damaper was valved to control.
The effective is much the same as going from the world strongest man controlling a Shetland pony on a lead reign that's just been stung by a hornet to having it controlled by Pee Wee Herman. The effectiveness of the damper to control that spring is vastly reduced.
Whilst ignoring and imbalances with the ARB forming part of the overall system.
If there is any doubt left about the springs being the shock absorbers - Take off all the dampers and you will still drive down the road having all the road shocks still being absorbed. The difference between the sprung and unsprung masses effecting the amount of chassis defection created by the shocks. More than a few on here will be driving around with one or more ineffective dampers without even noticing but they would soon notice if an actual shock absorber (spring) was removed.
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Last Edit: Nov 10, 2018 12:29:05 GMT by Darkspeed
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Nov 10, 2018 17:47:31 GMT
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The energy of the bump goes into(absorbed by)the spring and if uncontrolled straight back out again. Hit a spring with a sledge hammer and the shock will be absorbed and immediately released back again. That ISN'T absorption. a damper does not absorb shocks* - If you hit one with a sledge hammer the damper will absorb some of that energy during the storage and release process - converted to heat into the damper fluid. THAT is. Dictionary definition - absorb: absorb /əbˈzɔːb,əbˈsɔːb/ verb verb: absorb; 3rd person present: absorbs; past tense: absorbed; past participle: absorbed; gerund or present participle: absorbing 1. take in or soak up To absorb kinetic energy, the damping article must have the ability to reduce or dissipate the impact oscillations. When you hit a spring with an impact force, it reacts, thus transferring the oscillation. To use your own example - if you hit a spring with a hammer, it will bounce right back at your face with the same (or close to) power (force) you hit it with. That is the transfer of kinetic energy. There is no absorption. Metal does not compress molecularly when impacted, so it physically does not possess the attributes to be a car damper. Oil or gas does compress however, making it excellent at damping.
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Nov 10, 2018 17:53:38 GMT
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If there is any doubt left about the springs being the shock absorbers - Take off all the dampers and you will still drive down the road having all the road shocks still being absorbed. The difference between the sprung and unsprung masses effecting the amount of chassis defection created by the shocks. More than a few on here will be driving around with one or more ineffective dampers without even noticing but they would soon notice if an actual shock absorber (spring) was removed. Seriously. Of course you will notice a spring missing, because it is used to support the mass of the car. The damper is used to dampen the impacts. You can drive without it. But you are thereby removing the control of the spring. The reason you can "get away" with doing this is because on a vehicle where the damper does not form the spring perch (i.e. on most FWD cars, with MacPherson struts) is that the suspension travel is mechanically limited so that the spring is retained, by for example, an upper and lower wishbone. The spring does not "absorb" the impact. It transfers it immediately, at full equal and opposite strength, back into the suspension, pushing it downward. What you will get is a harsh, uncomfortable ride which in extreme circumstances would be uncontrolled and dangerous.
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,674
Club RR Member Number: 39
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Nov 10, 2018 18:03:36 GMT
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Oil compresses - really - FFS
For anyone else who is interested just go have a search and every explanation worth reading will state that the spring absorbs the shocks.
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,376
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Nov 10, 2018 18:34:39 GMT
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where's Harry Hill when you need him!? only one way to sort this out.... fight!! but seriously guys - thanks for the input
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1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP 1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up 1984 VW Polo breadvan 1970s Yamaha Twins (4) 1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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Nov 10, 2018 18:56:00 GMT
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Oil compresses - really - FFS If that were true then we'd have to come up with a different system for our brakes and every other hydraulic system in existence. Which includes our blood....
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MK1 Golf Height adjustable coil overs do fit on the back of an early polo, mines been running them for about 8 years and I've had others running them before that. If anything they are too short. Fine if you want it slammed, not so if you don't.
You won't of noticed any difference after fitting 35mm lowering springs because you were replacing tired old springs with new ones. More often than not you don't notice a difference in ride height after fitting a small drop lowering spring because the old spring you swapped it with has sagged over the years.
Using standard dampers with a 35mm lower spring will not effect the ride hight. The spring dictates that, not the damper. The only time the damper will effect the ride hight is when the damper bottoms out preventing the spring from lowering the car any more (it takes more than 35mm before this becomes an issue).
While lowering top caps will allow the car to sit lower, it's not for the reasons you seem to think it is. They allow the spring to seat slightly higher than a standard top cup giving a little more drop in ride hight. Having the rod sit further through would do nothing more than risk having the damper bottom out over bumps.
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Last Edit: Nov 12, 2018 9:22:43 GMT by roccoguy
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,376
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Nov 12, 2018 23:27:25 GMT
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That's interesting roccoguy. Thanks I've not actually seen how lowering caps work. I just assumed they sat above the body and were thicker than normal caps so forced the spring to compress more. Are you saying they are shallower than a normal cup? Also the bit about rod sitting further through body. Would this not be equivalent to having a shorter rod? Like if you could cut the threads on top futher down the rod so the nut/cap would sit further down it (I know this isn't viable but in theory)
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Last Edit: Nov 12, 2018 23:28:07 GMT by foxy99
1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP 1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up 1984 VW Polo breadvan 1970s Yamaha Twins (4) 1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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