scimjim
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,503
Club RR Member Number: 8
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Oct 23, 2018 14:04:48 GMT
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We're talking about a 1950's Chevy and trying to apply legislation which came out 30 years later-this is not possible ? I laugh at the name calling but the sharper amongst us will see the argument I am making and the place I am trying to steer this away from-which is essentially applying registering a vehicle legislation to an already registered vehicle where c&u regulations are the yard stick. Here’s a 1960s car that met all C&U regs at the time and was road registered - but DVLA rescinded the V5C because the chassis had been modified (which is against the 8 point rule). Only way to get it road registered would be IVA.  |
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mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,946 
Club RR Member Number: 77
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Oct 24, 2018 13:07:15 GMT
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We're talking about a 1950's Chevy and trying to apply legislation which came out 30 years later-this is not possible ? I laugh at the name calling but the sharper amongst us will see the argument I am making and the place I am trying to steer this away from-which is essentially applying registering a vehicle legislation to an already registered vehicle where c&u regulations are the yard stick. Here’s a 1960s car that met all C&U regs at the time and was road registered - but DVLA rescinded the V5C because the chassis had been modified (which is against the 8 point rule). Only way to get it road registered would be IVA. I can appreciate that the car in the picture had the V5C revoked because of chassis mods, but surely thats a full tube frame chassis underneath and not a hope in hell of even looking remotely standard  The OP of this thread is asking if some engine mounts are ok to weld on to a chassis (as an extra fixture, not the chassis chopped/hacked about), which from another thread in this section mentioned about you could add brackets to a chassis as long as it didn't affect its originality  (not looking to dampen spirits or get in to a slagging match, just what I recall reading BTW  ) |
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scimjim
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,503
Club RR Member Number: 8
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Oct 24, 2018 17:33:51 GMT
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Here’s a 1960s car that met all C&U regs at the time and was road registered - but DVLA rescinded the V5C because the chassis had been modified (which is against the 8 point rule). Only way to get it road registered would be IVA. I can appreciate that the car in the picture had the V5C revoked because of chassis mods, but surely thats a full tube frame chassis underneath and not a hope in hell of even looking remotely standard The OP of this thread is asking if some engine mounts are ok to weld on to a chassis (as an extra fixture, not the chassis chopped/hacked about), which from another thread in this section mentioned about you could add brackets to a chassis as long as it didn't affect its originality (not looking to dampen spirits or get in to a slagging match, just what I recall reading BTW ) I wasn’t replying to the OP though? |
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mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,946
Club RR Member Number: 77
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Oct 24, 2018 18:11:13 GMT
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Oh yeah, I do apologise scimjim My statement still stands tho |
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Oct 24, 2018 21:15:19 GMT
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I was involved with that plus the subsequent 3 owners . The guy that was holding the ball sold it on 'for racing' only others were naive in their purchasing.
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Nov 14, 2018 22:19:10 GMT
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It's great that you guys offer this advice.
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ftz313
Part of things
Posts: 221
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Nov 25, 2018 11:37:32 GMT
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We're talking about a 1950's Chevy and trying to apply legislation which came out 30 years later-this is not possible ? I laugh at the name calling but the sharper amongst us will see the argument I am making and the place I am trying to steer this away from-which is essentially applying registering a vehicle legislation to an already registered vehicle where c&u regulations are the yard stick. Here’s a 1960s car that met all C&U regs at the time and was road registered - but DVLA rescinded the V5C because the chassis had been modified (which is against the 8 point rule). Only way to get it road registered would be IVA. Sorry about the slow response. I've just done a vehicle check on this and of course there are no details for it. I think this goes back to one of the original points I made where it has to retain the 'silhouette' of the original vehicle, which to be fair it doesn't. For ex the view out the windscreen will be seriously impaired. I can't find it now but when the rolling historic mot regs. came out a bod from DVLA was on the tv saying 'as long as it remains it silhouette and reregistering is a separate issue'. This is where the confusion lies, sadly. |
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Nov 25, 2018 12:51:01 GMT
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Here’s a 1960s car that met all C&U regs at the time and was road registered - but DVLA rescinded the V5C because the chassis had been modified (which is against the 8 point rule). Only way to get it road registered would be IVA. Sorry about the slow response. I've just done a vehicle check on this and of course there are no details for it. I think this goes back to one of the original points I made where it has to retain the 'silhouette' of the original vehicle, which to be fair it doesn't. For ex the view out the windscreen will be seriously impaired. I can't find it now but when the rolling historic mot regs. came out a bod from DVLA was on the tv saying 'as long as it remains it silhouette and reregistering is a separate issue'. This is where the confusion lies, sadly. So without the bonnet scoop that Scim would retain its original profile I’d say, would it then have retained its registration? And if so, how does any significantly modified bodywork not require the vehicle to be IVA tested? Seems strange that the implication is that you can build a racecar under the existing bodywork, but if you modify the bodywork it needs retesting... to me that reads ‘if it looks standard, who will know’ but that can’t be what you mean? |
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scimjim
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,503
Club RR Member Number: 8
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Nov 25, 2018 12:54:30 GMT
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Sillhouette has nothing to do with it (and had nothing at all to do with this particular car) - changing the bodyshell on a separate chassis car is a well trodden route. I was providing an example of applying modern legislation to older cars that were modified outside of the 8 point rule. That car met the C&U regs but not the type approval regs, hence it needed IVA to be re-approved.
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Nov 26, 2018 17:36:17 GMT
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"I can't find it now but when the rolling historic mot regs. came out a bod from DVLA was on the tv saying 'as long as it remains it silhouette and reregistering is a separate issue'. This is where the confusion lies, sadly."
You're just making this up aren't you.
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Proton Jumbuck-deceased :-(
2005 Kia Sorento the parts hauling heap
V8 Humber Hawk
1948 Standard12 pickup SOLD
1953 Pop build (wifey's BIVA build).
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Nov 28, 2018 19:28:50 GMT
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Ok, a question for ftz 313 . If i were to roof chop a car, correctly registered and on the road for 30+ years by 2" on a monococuqe car and retain all original suspension engine box etc would it need BIVA or not?
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Nov 29, 2018 15:32:20 GMT
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The relevant bits (monocoque stuff omitted) VOSA have provided the following response to your questions; Chassis. Q) What is classed as chassis? Is it purely the outer longitudinal rails or are the crossmembers between these also a part of the chassis? A) Chassis should be taken to include crossmembers. Q) We know that cutting or shortening a chassis is classed as modification but is this relative to the vehicle wheelbase i.e. the chassis must remain uncut between the 2 axles but anything forward of front or aft of rear suspension mounts can be removed? A) Chassis includes the full original length of the longitudinal members including to the front of the front axle and to the rear of the rear axle. Q) Is it acceptable to remove bodymounts, which contribute no strength to the chassis when changing a body to a different style /make? A) Yes, providing they are additional to and are not an integral part of the chassis structure. Q) Is it acceptable to strengthen a chassis by the addition of boxing plates a process that involves turning a 3-sided open chassis rail into a fully enclosed 'box' chassis? A) Yes, providing the original structure remains unchanged. The answers to our chassied vehicle rules queries seem mainly straightforward, However, we have further questions based on the answers supplied. Q) As chassis strengthening is allowed, are we correct in assuming that additional crossmembers would also be allowed? A) It is important that the original chassis structure is retained unmodified, and while it is acceptable to strengthen areas and include additional brackets or crossmembers, It would be limited to additions within the existing chassis frame structure. Additional chassis structures, i.e. extending the outward parameters of the original chassis structure would be considered a modification. So, to summarise the above information: Chassis It is acceptable to box original chassis and also to add additional crossmembers but not to alter the existing chassis in any way to allow for their installation. It is acceptable to remove NON STRUCTURAL body mounts and engine / gearbox mounts. It is NOT acceptable to shorten, or lengthen the chassis, either in between standard suspension points or fore and aft of these. Any additional items welded creating a longer overall chassis are classed as modifications. It would however be acceptable to bolt a reasonably sized additional subframe to existing mounting holes. Any outriggers (as opposed to continuous chassis frame) fore or aft from the chassis would need clarification from VOSA as to their purpose before removal or alteration was accepted. This would be based on their purpose and whether they formed part of the vehicles original Type Approval. How does this work with VW Beetle "beam extenders" that lengthen the wheelbase buy bolting on between the chassis and beam? No cutting or welding required... |
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Nov 29, 2018 17:19:45 GMT
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You've answered your own question!
"It would however be acceptable to bolt a reasonably sized additional subframe to existing mounting holes."
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Proton Jumbuck-deceased :-(
2005 Kia Sorento the parts hauling heap
V8 Humber Hawk
1948 Standard12 pickup SOLD
1953 Pop build (wifey's BIVA build).
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Nov 29, 2018 20:20:34 GMT
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You've answered your own question! "It would however be acceptable to bolt a reasonably sized additional subframe to existing mounting holes." "It is NOT acceptable to shorten, or lengthen the chassis, either in between standard suspension points or fore and aft of these." It doesn't differentiate between weld or bolt-on here, that was why I wanted to clarify it. I understand the rules can't foresee each individual car and/or builder, but they sort of cancel each other out? |
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Nov 29, 2018 21:08:18 GMT
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I spoken about this with DVSA and they don't want to get into it, it will only be a problem when someone decides to mak eit one !! LOL MY take is that ,like a body swap if you weld the extender TO the front suspension then you haven't modified the floorpan by extending it. However you would obviously loose points for front ( and rear ) suspenion from your initial total of 14
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Nov 29, 2018 21:13:25 GMT
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You've answered your own question! "It would however be acceptable to bolt a reasonably sized additional subframe to existing mounting holes." "It is NOT acceptable to shorten, or lengthen the chassis, either in between standard suspension points or fore and aft of these." It doesn't differentiate between weld or bolt-on here, that was why I wanted to clarify it. I understand the rules can't foresee each individual car and/or builder, but they sort of cancel each other out? That would be , for instance , to support something like a flip front but it mustn't alter the overall parameters of the chassis . ie when body swapping an intermediate frame must become part of the body once everything is aligned and be insperable from the body itself. Another for instance is on the Ferrari-a-like MR2 conversion where cars were getting sent for BIVA because the builders had welded the front body supports to the monocque as opposed to bolting them on and bonding to the body. |
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Deleted
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Last Edit: Dec 5, 2018 18:24:46 GMT by crockpot
Proton Jumbuck-deceased :-(
2005 Kia Sorento the parts hauling heap
V8 Humber Hawk
1948 Standard12 pickup SOLD
1953 Pop build (wifey's BIVA build).
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Here’s a 1960s car that met all C&U regs at the time and was road registered - but DVLA rescinded the V5C because the chassis had been modified (which is against the 8 point rule). Only way to get it road registered would be IVA. Sorry about the slow response. I've just done a vehicle check on this and of course there are no details for it. I think this goes back to one of the original points I made where it has to retain the 'silhouette' of the original vehicle, which to be fair it doesn't. For ex the view out the windscreen will be seriously impaired. I can't find it now but when the rolling historic mot regs. came out a bod from DVLA was on the tv saying 'as long as it remains it silhouette and reregistering is a separate issue'. This is where the confusion lies, sadly. You do realise that is a separate chassis car so the silhouette is totally irrelevant? The identification of the car is connected to the chassis, not the plastic thing bolted on top of it. |
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Right, seeing as the guys that know the rules are all on this thread I'll ask my question here.
I want to put series 2 land rover body bodywork onto a Merc ML chassis, I will need to add a few extra body mounts and remove the original merc body mounts (which are non structural).
I want to remove the ML Mercedes engine, and fit my big turbo om606 engine to the ML's gearbox. This doesn't require mods to the chassis but I will need to add some extra engine mounts (drill and bolt to chassis).
I want to bin the ML electrics and wire it all up like a series landrover. this will mean removing abs, airbags, esp, ect. And also using landrover light units.
Is any of the above a problem? Do I need to BIVA test it, or can I MOT it as normal? It will be using the ML registration plate?
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1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp
1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon
1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered!
1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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Safest way on that is LEAVE original mounts and make additional mounts fit inside chassis frame . Do the body swap first and have it noted on your V5C THEN do the rest .Swapping the engine out and changing body won't affect your reg but it is VERY easy to confuse DVLA and get yourself into a world of not required hurt . Keep it simple for them, one bite at a time.
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Last Edit: Dec 6, 2018 11:41:22 GMT by kapri
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