Rob M
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,915
Club RR Member Number: 41
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TeslaRob M
@zeb
Club Retro Rides Member 41
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Jun 27, 2018 18:09:16 GMT
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It's quite funny how there is this monumental push to go electric when we have no real infrastructure for charging, no real plan to create one, no idea whether throwing money at creating one will be money down the drain should some new fangled invention come along and make it all redundant and no actual clue as to how we are going to be taxed and by how much when we are charging our cars instead of filling them with tax revenue heavy fossil fuels. ........and thats just a few of the umpteen unknowns. I like Electric cars and I have no issues about owning one, whether its 100% tizzy powered or a hybrid BUT this ridiculous notion that we can just junk the heartbeat of a classic and convert it to electricity is really annoying me. Asthetic appearence is not the sole criteria in classic/retro ownership, it is way more than that. The internal combustion engine is the soul of the car, the thing that moves it, the thing that, once upon a time, gave it it's own unique voice and identity. If we are saying that we can just junk the heart and transplant it with something that is a souless and ultra efficient ( supposedly) heart then, maybe, I'm glad that I have the bulk of my life behind me than ahead of me. The parp of Minor, the 'phut phut' of a Beetle, the burble of a Firebird IS integral to what those cars are, it's not some sort of by product, a side issue or unimportant facet of those cars, those engines DEFINE those cars just as much as Issigonis defined the look of the Mini and all those other designers who created a look for an era. Speed? So the Tesla is ridiculously fast, so what? Is that what owning cars is about? How fast you can go? Really? Christ......... Electric vehicles have their place and will have their time, the world is changing rapidly, maybe soon it will become almost impossible to drive any petrol or diesel car without incurring heavy penalties and/or restrictions, who knows. Until then, leave the bloody classics be, leave the Retros to their old fashioned outdated engines and let us enjoy the late summer that they offer. One day they won't be around as we would want them to be.
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chamba
Part of things
Posts: 199
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Jun 28, 2018 13:26:56 GMT
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It's quite funny how there is this monumental push to go electric when we have no real infrastructure for charging, no real plan to create one, no idea whether throwing money at creating one will be money down the drain should some new fangled invention come along and make it all redundant and no actual clue as to how we are going to be taxed and by how much when we are charging our cars instead of filling them with tax revenue heavy fossil fuels. ........and thats just a few of the umpteen unknowns. I like Electric cars and I have no issues about owning one, whether its 100% tizzy powered or a hybrid BUT this ridiculous notion that we can just junk the heartbeat of a classic and convert it to electricity is really annoying me. Asthetic appearence is not the sole criteria in classic/retro ownership, it is way more than that. The internal combustion engine is the soul of the car, the thing that moves it, the thing that, once upon a time, gave it it's own unique voice and identity. If we are saying that we can just junk the heart and transplant it with something that is a souless and ultra efficient ( supposedly) heart then, maybe, I'm glad that I have the bulk of my life behind me than ahead of me. The parp of Minor, the 'phut phut' of a Beetle, the burble of a Firebird IS integral to what those cars are, it's not some sort of by product, a side issue or unimportant facet of those cars, those engines DEFINE those cars just as much as Issigonis defined the look of the Mini and all those other designers who created a look for an era. Speed? So the Tesla is ridiculously fast, so what? Is that what owning cars is about? How fast you can go? Really? Christ......... Electric vehicles have their place and will have their time, the world is changing rapidly, maybe soon it will become almost impossible to drive any petrol or diesel car without incurring heavy penalties and/or restrictions, who knows. Until then, leave the bloody classics be, leave the Retros to their old fashioned outdated engines and let us enjoy the late summer that they offer. One day they won't be around as we would want them to be. Agree with this 100%
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Jun 28, 2018 14:53:25 GMT
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Really? You agree with everything in that post? OK... There is a plan to develop a charging infrastructure in the UK, just because Joe Public doesn't know all of the details doesn't mean that there isn't a plan. Just because the mainstream media tries to sandbag EV adoption (no doubt with pay offs from big oil), doesn't mean you should hop on the band wagon. I do, however, completely agree with keeping classics smelling of petrol
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Rob M
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,915
Club RR Member Number: 41
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TeslaRob M
@zeb
Club Retro Rides Member 41
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Jun 28, 2018 16:22:58 GMT
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Really? You agree with everything in that post? OK... There is a plan to develop a charging infrastructure in the UK, just because Joe Public doesn't know all of the details doesn't mean that there isn't a plan. Just because the mainstream media tries to sandbag EV adoption (no doubt with pay offs from big oil), doesn't mean you should hop on the band wagon. I do, however, completely agree with keeping classics smelling of petrol I'm not quite sure that the mainstream media is trying to sandbag EV adoption, on the contrary, Musk is championed as some maverick pioneer that bigger players are frantically trying to catch up with, let alone overtake. I do have a degree of understanding regarding the development of infrastructures, I have been an engineer in the communications industry for almost 30 years, when I came into the business we still had dial phones and the internet didn't have a name! Planning and infrastructure and actually getting it up and running, let alone funding it, are entirely seperate things. I'd suggest that the public does not know all the details because the costs are going to be eye watering and, ultimately, it will be Joe Public who foots the bill. At some point, in between now and geting my bus pass, I would like to own an all electric car that delivers performance, comfort, etc, etc, etc. As it currently stands, I probably could go all electric now as I do not do long journeys, as a rule, and I can charge it on the driveway/garage. That makes me lucky and not the norm. There may well be a time when towns and cities are fully capable of offering charging facilities for EVs, however, not everybody lives in either. Only now, a long way into superfast broadband, has there been a big push to get rural communities up to speed. It's horrendously expensive to do with little guarantee of a return. As for fibre to the premises... I don't think people are against EVs, hybrids or new technology per se but that does not mean we are not realistic, there is a huge amount of work to do which will be a massive undertaking, it will be expensive to a point of jaw dropping and it will mean that there will be the kind of upheaval that will boil the average Joes p*ss. So long as everbody is aware, bring it on.
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Jun 28, 2018 20:26:04 GMT
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Announced today that BP has bought Chargemaster, the largest supplier of charging infrastructure in the uk at this time.
Read into that what you will.
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Teslajohnthesparky
@johnthesparky
Club Retro Rides Member 6
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Not overly relevant to the way the thread has moved, but Tesla related and I thought it interesting and sparked conversations yesterday..... We took the Fug to a local car show, in one of the next villages, run by the rotary club, with a good spread of old cars.... 1902 Chrysler through to about mid 90s with a few exceptions (2018 mustang etc which were parked on the fringes) But pride of place, right in front of the tea and cake in the most prominent position was a Tesla stand, with 6 of them, and also a Renault thing too... In terms of engineering I find them interesting, and would like to poke around one properly (up on ramps, removing some plastic covers etc) but they aren’t an interesting car imo to look at, could be most large executive saloons. So I found it weird that they had loads of them with prime real estate at a classic show.... seen over the top of the stag with flags Just struck me that they are common with the fat cats (certainly round here) and would the same people have had a stand for new LS400s a few years ago? Struck me as strange behaviour I suppose
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It's quite funny how there is this monumental push to go electric when we have no real infrastructure for charging, no real plan to create one, no idea whether throwing money at creating one will be money down the drain should some new fangled invention come along and make it all redundant and no actual clue as to how we are going to be taxed and by how much when we are charging our cars instead of filling them with tax revenue heavy fossil fuels. ........and thats just a few of the umpteen unknowns. I like Electric cars and I have no issues about owning one, whether its 100% tizzy powered or a hybrid BUT this ridiculous notion that we can just junk the heartbeat of a classic and convert it to electricity is really annoying me. Asthetic appearence is not the sole criteria in classic/retro ownership, it is way more than that. The internal combustion engine is the soul of the car, the thing that moves it, the thing that, once upon a time, gave it it's own unique voice and identity. If we are saying that we can just junk the heart and transplant it with something that is a souless and ultra efficient ( supposedly) heart then, maybe, I'm glad that I have the bulk of my life behind me than ahead of me. The parp of Minor, the 'phut phut' of a Beetle, the burble of a Firebird IS integral to what those cars are, it's not some sort of by product, a side issue or unimportant facet of those cars, those engines DEFINE those cars just as much as Issigonis defined the look of the Mini and all those other designers who created a look for an era. Speed? So the Tesla is ridiculously fast, so what? Is that what owning cars is about? How fast you can go? Really? Christ......... Electric vehicles have their place and will have their time, the world is changing rapidly, maybe soon it will become almost impossible to drive any petrol or diesel car without incurring heavy penalties and/or restrictions, who knows. Until then, leave the bloody classics be, leave the Retros to their old fashioned outdated engines and let us enjoy the late summer that they offer. One day they won't be around as we would want them to be. I love this post. I disagree with portions of it, but you make some great (and valid) points. My wife runs an electric car as her (15,000/year) daily - the infrastucture seems pretty good so far - although admittedly, we do have a charger at home. It's just about perfect for her...they are how cars should've been, and they're getting better. I love driving it too...it's comfortable, fast and fun. I don't think all classics should be converted, but my ultimate car certainly looks old and runs clean.
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Tesla will be out of business in a few years... but their impact on the wider EV market has been huge so that is good. Will be interesting to see what Hydrogen fuel cells do, I know that behind the scenes these have been heavily pushed by a number of companies but we've not seen much in the public sphere until Le Mans (and the old Honda Odyssey) I think the major drawback with the Hydrogen fuel cell is not the tech - it's apparently very sound. However, the big issue they're currently struggling with is the processing to make the fuel. It's incredibly expensive and I think I remember reading that making it is also not that environmentally friendly, which kind of defeats the object. I think given enough time and support it *should* be the way forward, as the only emissions the engine gives out is water. A technological breakthrough in the processing is required. The electric/hydrogen motors could be the future equivalent of petrol/diesel.
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Blimey, I only posted originally as a ride in an ev was staggeringly kin fast and made me very 😃
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Bicycle x1 Alfa Giulietta (now wife's) Alfa 156 BMW 630i Honda rc36
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Teslajohnthesparky
@johnthesparky
Club Retro Rides Member 6
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Blimey, I only posted originally as a ride in an ev was staggeringly kin fast and made me very 😃 Yeah, but you did post it on the internet!!
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My problem with all this is the Batteries. They're the same as i use in summat else and they have a very finite life. Tesla get round this by calling overspeccing the batteries and showing what is actually something like 130% as 100% on the display. Once they pass a certain threshold they die exponentially quickly, there are gonna be loads of 2nd hand cars on the market needing £20k's worth of batteries at short notice at some point down the line.
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Shortcut
Posted a lot
I won't be there when you cross the road, so always use the Green Cross Code.
Posts: 3,037
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I had a very informative day at the recent Fully Charged Live event. Learnt a lot as well as actually getting to sit in and be moved around in a Model X and a P90D. Tesla are not the future of electric cars. I don't think Elon Musk for one minute wants to run a car manufacturing company. Elon Musk wants to be the man that "saved the planet" by kick starting the EV business. Tesla are a battery company anyway really. As they are finding full scale manufacturing of cars is REALLY DIFFICULT. I would imagine they'll get bought at some point although interestingly since they tend to give their patents away they may have little actual value. I guess there are two EV future visions. Tech and Trad. The tech companies (Google Uber etc) se a future without car ownership, with people renting EVs by the journey and being auto driven. The trad car companies see (and need) a future where people still buy into car ownership. It could go either way. Far less "cars" needed if the tech companies vision prevails. The idea of electrifying your classic is intriguing, I loved the electric BMW et al. Won't do anything for the resale value I guess. A friend of mine is currently looking at the business opportunities in buying up old Rolls Royces and EVing them to provide zero emission transport for hotels etc. Given that the only weak point on an 80s roller is the motor it may be a good (if niche) idea. I was shocked to hear that a Teslas P90 on quick charge will draw as much power from the grid as the entire supermarket it may well be parked outside. The current UK infrastrucure simply wont be up to this if fast charge EVs become the norm. Fully Charged showed that there are a lot of comanies stating to address this, because there is money to be made. The star of the whole show was not a Tesla. The EV Morgan 3 wheeler came close but I would buy one of these SO fast...
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Last Edit: Jul 3, 2018 17:00:41 GMT by Shortcut
This space available to rent. Reach literally dozens of people. Cheap rates!
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Milord
Part of things
Posts: 155
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what is it, what is it called and where can I order one? That looks SOO cool and reminds me somehow of this:
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Currently: BMW E46 320i Touring BMW E34 525TDS Touring VW T3 panel van 1.6d Opel Kadett C1 Caravan 1.2 Fiat 411R
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what is it, what is it called and where can I order one? That looks SOO cool and reminds me somehow of this: motochimp.com
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Bicycle x1 Alfa Giulietta (now wife's) Alfa 156 BMW 630i Honda rc36
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Milord
Part of things
Posts: 155
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Thanks! found it already, contacted them! Curious to see whether or not they'd ship me one to Belgium concerning the Tesla, my uncle has one, an early S model one, without the ludicrous mode. It's a cool bit of tech, and it paved the road in so many ways. But personally I don't think electric -in the manner that it's used today to power cars- is the answer. I can't speak for the UK, but in Belgium only 7% of the electricity that's available is considered 'green'. And with every transportation or conversion of electricity a LOT of energy goes to waste. This means that electric cars are, and will still be a few years into the future the LEAST energy efficient of all transportation methods. It may very well be different in the future, but as technology is now, this does not seem like a sustainable, long term solution for the masses. Reason why so many Tesla's are on dutch or belgian licence plates is because the purchase and all costs are tax-deductible for 120%.
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Currently: BMW E46 320i Touring BMW E34 525TDS Touring VW T3 panel van 1.6d Opel Kadett C1 Caravan 1.2 Fiat 411R
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Given that the only weak point on an 80s roller is the motor it may be a good (if niche) idea. not including the fact they rot like a corpse in the mid-day sun???
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'80 s1 924 turbo..hibernating '80 golf gli cabriolet...doing impression of a skip '97 pug 106 commuter...continuing cheapness making me smile!
firm believer in the k.i.s.s and f.i.s.h principles.
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mylittletony
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,350
Club RR Member Number: 84
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Teslamylittletony
@mylittletony
Club Retro Rides Member 84
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Given that the only weak point on an 80s roller is the motor it may be a good (if niche) idea. not including the fact they rot like a corpse in the mid-day sun??? And the hydraulic gubbins that's extraordinarily expensive to fix.
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sonus
Europe
Posts: 1,386
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My problem with all this is the Batteries. They're the same as i use in summat else and they have a very finite life. Tesla get round this by calling overspeccing the batteries and showing what is actually something like 130% as 100% on the display. Once they pass a certain threshold they die exponentially quickly, there are gonna be loads of 2nd hand cars on the market needing £20k's worth of batteries at short notice at some point down the line. My friend just bought a TESLA model S 90P that has done 80.000 miles and it has not had any significant drop in battery capacity. Used EV batteries will also be used for other purposes when they end their lives as car batteries. A lot of the very early EVs here in Norway has donated their batteries to off grid cabins etc.
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Current 1968 TVR VIXEN S1 V8 Prototype 2004 TVR T350C 2017 BMW 340i
Previous BMW 325d E91LCI - sold Alfa Romeo GTV - sold Citroen AX GT - at the breakers Ford Puma 1.7 - sold Volvo V50 2.0d - sold MGB GT - wrecked by fire MG ZT 1.8T - sold VW E-golf Electric - sold Mini Countryman 1.6D -sold Land Rover Discovery TD5 - sold
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sonus
Europe
Posts: 1,386
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In Norway there are 172.000 EVs today in a population of 4.5 million - elbilstatistikk.no/ . Tesla has become the new Volkswagen Passat / Vauxhaul Insignia due to their low cost compared to the heavily taxed fossil fueled cars. A fully speced Model S cost approximately the same as a top speced BMW 520D due to the lack of tax and the fact that all EVs are sold VAT-free to encourage the use of EVs. Last year Tesla sold 8500 cars in Norway. I have had an VW E-golf myself and I am sure I will own another EV in the future as they are very easy to live with and cost next to nothing to run. My hope is that switching to EVs as daily drivers will let us petrolheads keep using our fossil fuel cars as a hobby.
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Current 1968 TVR VIXEN S1 V8 Prototype 2004 TVR T350C 2017 BMW 340i
Previous BMW 325d E91LCI - sold Alfa Romeo GTV - sold Citroen AX GT - at the breakers Ford Puma 1.7 - sold Volvo V50 2.0d - sold MGB GT - wrecked by fire MG ZT 1.8T - sold VW E-golf Electric - sold Mini Countryman 1.6D -sold Land Rover Discovery TD5 - sold
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We're already seeing a divide opening looking at these posts between countries, and that's just Europe.
I've said it before that electric cars are suitable in some places, not at all in others, and probably won't be for many years.
Many countries in this part of the world struggle to supply stable power for normal living, and many fail completely outside their cities, let alone if a few million plug their cars in as well!
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