|
|
|
I'm in the process of welding some repair panels on my '81 Land Rover but it's proving slightly difficult. My previous welding experience involves sticking bits of tractors together and making big heavy duty brackets for trailers or 4x4's, normally I blast away at >90-120Amps. Trying to stick BL's finest wahfer thin tin to the repair sections in proving somewhat tedious.
So what would you do?
Do I make best of a terrible job or throw the in towel?? I'm short of time and have other work to the vehicle (using if for a college project) and really want to get the car back on the road so I can drive it there to demo the project.
Currently I can get really terrible ugly blobby runs, it looks terrible but is penetrating. I can grind off the worst and get a wobbly line that holds it in place but it just looks so bad. I've seen almost as bad on other cars but not my own work. The previous repairs on this vehicle had bits of mig wire still stick in places!
I have committed to the passenger footwell and A pillar as have cut this all out and have the new footwell partially inplace. The A pilar just needs some plug type welds at the bottom and then there is a patch at the top that will be visible when the car is reassembled.
The drivers side footwell also needs doing but I haven't cut it out yet. It's currently made up of old (now holed) repair panels welded on top of the original holed bulkhead material so it is a weird mess with 2 layers of holes. It really all needs cut out and a clean footwell installed. Here I think I might just patch the holes in the interior and come back at a later date with a new footwell.
I'm arc welding @ 30 Amps with 1.5mm sticks. Repair sections are 1.1mm thick and original metal is between .87-.97mm.
Other option that might be quicker for me; make a new bulkhead out of the sheets of 4mm plate I have....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Don't know if I dare showing a picture... If you are squeamish or easily offended please look away: *holds head in shame*
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I have started to do a bit of welding myself and I can try give you some tips I found useful from speaking to experts.
Lighting Make sure you can see what you are welding, I have screwed an LED bike type light to my welding mask even though my garage is very well lit, it make loads of difference actually seeing where you are welding rather than guessing where you are going.
Engineers chalk Get some chalk and Mark out the direction or weld you wish to run, then follow the line, it sound obvious but it's one less thing to worry about when welding.
Comfort Make sure you're sitting/lying comfortably before you begin, then make sure you can complete a run of weld before having to move position. Your welds will be more fluid if you can run a full weld in before moving. (This will be less important on thin metal as you will only be welding a small run to allow the steel to cool before it distorts.
Speed Make sure you are going slow enough, I made the same mistake and ran away with myself and had welds like yours, slow right down, complet a small run, move to another area and again a small slow run and so on.
Settings Make sure you practice on getting penetration first rather than how good your welds look, check your machine is set up for the steel you are using.
Gas I was using just normal gas that I found at machine mart, I was then told about Argon/CO2 mix which I found amazing and if you hire a large bottle it will save you money in the long run.
Regulator If using a large bottle ensure your regulator is decent, many cheap regulators are wibblepoo.
I hope these tips help you, they certainly helped me, now I can see how curse word my welds are as I go along. 😁
|
|
1965 Morris Minor 1000 soon to be 1380 1997 MK1 MX-5 1.8 (sold) 2009 MK3 MX-5 2.0 (sold) 2008 Mini Cooper (sold) 2003 Mini Cooper S (sold) Fixed wheel Raleigh Clubman (sold) 1982 Yamaha RS125DX (sold)
|
|
|
|
|
Forgot to mention, jump over to the mig welding forum , loads of great advice on there.
|
|
1965 Morris Minor 1000 soon to be 1380 1997 MK1 MX-5 1.8 (sold) 2009 MK3 MX-5 2.0 (sold) 2008 Mini Cooper (sold) 2003 Mini Cooper S (sold) Fixed wheel Raleigh Clubman (sold) 1982 Yamaha RS125DX (sold)
|
|
|
|
|
I have been professionally restoring vehicles of all types for some 40 years - I don't know everything and am always still learning and happy to do so - I am always happy to help anybody that is willing to listen - so first things first - forget attempting to weld anything like this with a stick / arc welder you just wasting your time and effort - wrong tool for the wrong job - you need a mig welder of a reasonable quality - ideally with a synergic setting (which makes even a novices welding look superb) if it's out of your budget and you are pressed for time you would be better off paying a professional to sort the welding for you whilst you crack on with the other work on the vehicle - by all means post any further questions that you have and I will answer them accordingly - Chris
|
|
Last Edit: Apr 6, 2018 6:23:27 GMT by Deleted
|
|
awoo
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,504
|
|
|
with arc, on dirty old thin metal, its like you are trying to thread a needle with an elephants foot. at the end of the day, it's not made for thin panels. draw the line around here. just something to aim for...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There's your problem, get a decent mig and you'll do fine.
|
|
1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp 1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon 1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered! 1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
|
|
|
|
|
I'm just mirroring what's already been said, get yourself a decent mig and have a practice on some scrap
|
|
Last Edit: Apr 6, 2018 8:16:54 GMT by fordperv
|
|
lord13
Part of things
Posts: 536
|
|
|
Yes, get a MIG, welding thin steel with an ARC can be soul destroying.... 'But a decent MIG is expensive' Don't buy a decent one if you're just starting out.. the settings can be over complicated on some machines. All you need for patch repair like this is a cheap MIG with a wire speed dial and a couple of switches ( 1, 2, max & min something like that) you'll have 4 incremental settings that will do most jobs with ease. Also don't go for a big regulator adapter and use a big bottle, keep it simple and get the disposable bottles.Everyone says get the big bottle but it just makes your hobby MIG ungainly and difficult to maneuver into tight spots. Those little bottles will do a day or two good welding if you regulate it properly, turn off the gas tap when not in use, and work behind a wind break (essential) if you're out doors, oh also use co2 with these, in my experience they don't like the co2/argon mix, and co2 lasts longer anyway. Use this little MIG until you're proficient, then buy a big one if you must, you'll have saved pots of cash and will be able to afford a good 'un. If you can't buy a MIG at the moment, you CAN use your ARC, but you have to use thin rods ( 2.5mm 6013), set the welder to around 45-65 amps (play around a bit, I've done thin steel at 90), use slightly thicker steel for you repair and overlap the patch repair a little and let the rod and patch flow into the work piece. (strike the arc on the repair patch not the work and tease it into the work piece). Don't try big runs. Work on opposite edges of the patch in turn, take plenty of breaks and clean the work up til it shines, but don't use aggressive grinders as it just thins the piece. I see from your pics that you've ground away some of the work piece whilst trying to clean up your welds, don't, it just weakens the join. Leave the welds slightly proud if its in a non cosmetic area. Seam sealer hides lots of crud. If you must butt weld, or want a flush fit, use two rods, strip the flux off one rod and lay it in the join if the work is on a flat section, and weld onto the stripped rod, it will flow into both pieces evenly. If the work isn't flat then use the stripped rod as you would if you were TIG welding, dipping it into the arc from the other rod. It takes practice....a lot of practice, but all these methods work. I've even welded up rotten old paper thin back boxes with this method And if you can use an inert heat sink behind the work, it will keep everything cool, soap stone works well. or a brick I'm sure some welders will read my comments and weep, this is not exactly the correct and proper way to weld, this is 'winging' it.... but you gotta work with what you have right? IF you can get an 'inverter' ARC welder, those things are lighter, regulate better and you can 'scratch TIG' with most... quite a versatile machine I'm sure someone's gonna say I don't know what I'm talking about but i'm speaking from experience, I'm not a GREAT welder, but I can stick the metal together enough to get the job done
|
|
Last Edit: Apr 6, 2018 9:01:23 GMT by lord13
]
|
|
|
|
|
And don't forget the option of used MIGs to get the price down, my recent project was done almost entirely with a £50 MIG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Folks thanks for the words of advice and encouragement. I'll get a small mig, spotted a few second hand locally, and been toying with the idea for ages but never bit the bullet and spent the cash. I've probably spent too long reading advice on buying one as I've heard all sides of the argument, "go pro gear", "buy the best or nothing at all", "get a 250l tank of gas" vs "got a mig from Aldi, just built a 1/2 scale model of the forth rail bridge".
Had a little bit of practice with mig before so I'm not 100% green. I've bought myself some more time as well so pressure is off a bit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Personally I would not bother with the used market or the cheap sub £250 range of mig welders - you will waste of a lot of time setting them up / playing about with them before you get a decent weld - forum members that have this type of welder before you comment - I have seen & heard all the stories - was only £50 etc and I have rebuilt 4 cars with it and it's never been any trouble etc - thing is unless you have used new generation inverter mig welder of professional quality you can't really compare it to the cheap 15 year old Clarke / SIP / No name welder - Inverter MIG's of a good quality are available new from £250 if you hunt around a little - they are step less which enables you weld the thinnest of metals - spend a little more money £350 + and you will obtain a Inverter MIG Synergic and it will virtually do the welding for you - They are easy, quick & simple to use - treat it has an investment and not has something that will just get you out of the situation that you find yourself in at present.
|
|
Last Edit: Apr 6, 2018 11:32:54 GMT by Deleted
|
|
|
|
|
can you recommend an Inverter MIG Synergic for about £350+
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I have to say I agree with the thread owner. Buy a cheapo mig if that is all you can afford. They are perfectly capable machines, though may not produce the highest quality results. Get the job done, sell the finished product and then invest the profit in a better welder if you need one. I still use a gassless clarke and a 40 year old air cooled stick.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
can you recommend an Inverter MIG Synergic for about £350+ I have only done a brief / quick search but e bay shows a couple for starters - example link below - Telwin is a respected brand - shop about on the net a little and you will find what you want or better still find a local welding supplier and talk to them - that's where my kit comes from and I get unrivalled service / prices www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TELWIN-wire-inverter-welder-150ah-synergic-multiprocessor-230v-MAXIMA-160/123032330057?epid=2068946603&hash=item1ca54c5f49:g:gqcAAOSwm51asTwwI appreciate that I use mine professionally but even I don't have tons of ££ invested in my machine - purchased 18 months ago it cost £600 and does everything - its paid for its self times over in the fact that I don't have to set it up - just plug it in & use it - no messing - very quick & easy and never given me any issues
|
|
|
|
lord13
Part of things
Posts: 536
|
|
|
Personally I would not bother with the used market or the cheap sub £250 range of mig welders I understand what you're saying mate, good kit = good work...and I think you've posted up some of your work and it's top notch... but you're a professional welder/fabricator/restorer, most of the guys on here are not. And if I remember correctly, this forum was set up to help like minded hobbyists sort out their old buckets of classic tin on a budget. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with 'mega bucks' rebuilds and 'sky's the limit' mods, I love to see what the more affluent among us are building, but a lot of us can't spend even £250- £350 on a welder, most of us struggle to spend that on a car! ( my viva was £150 ) So if the OP is like me and can't afford good kit, he might as well get a working budget or second hand machine and get proficient with that, if he ends up being good with it he can earn a bit on the side, save up and buy a decent machine and absolutely fly with it
|
|
]
|
|
|
|
|
As above really. Think of a good quality machine as a investment. Even if it was £500 the thing will still be worth half of that in 10 years if you keep it clean and tidy.
It's worth the extra to whack or on a credit card or get on credit from machine Mart. Personally I would get one from r-tech who provide excellent products and service and do interest free credit!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
A working second hand mig will be 100 times better than trying to weld with an arc welder on thin metal.
Biggest problem with cheap migs is the wire feed and it not being smooth for long runs of weld. Easy solution is don't do long runs, do tacks and then stitch with short runs before a clean up with a grinder. Even a basic mig can be made to do nice finished work with a bit of time spent.
Obviously a better quality mig will make it easier to do a nice job in the first place.
|
|
|
|
Rich
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,253
Club RR Member Number: 160
|
|
|
Not a lot to add here but I've got a small fleet of Sealy 151TE welders and I can pick any of them up and use them, there are enough settings to make it easy without being complicated and it goes low enough to weld small stuff but high enough to build big things. I restored a number of cars with mine, an MGB, BMW e28, and did a lot of welding on my disco, which it did with no issue. I then tray backed the disco, and the bed I built with the 151 withstood much off-roading, being driven into and you could jack it up on it. So worth seeing if you can find a second hand one of those as a starter MIG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ive a 20 year old mig ill be using to restore my mini. You have to make sure that you have a good tip in the gun, a good earth, and the work is clean. IMHo don't use gassless wire, as ive found it to be hard work.
The small bottles don't last, i use a pub bottle of c02, £22 a refill and £50 deposit on the bottle which is refundable. Out of the regulator ive got 4mm air pipe going to the mig, with a female female conector so i can have the bottle 2 meters from the welder. Also ive covered my gas pipe!
Skill level to weld with arc is much higher than for mig, but if you can arc weld you will pick up other types of welding easer that if you cam from mig. i weld trucks at work every day, and i am a fair welder with mig, did it at night school mig arc and tig, but 20 year s later i cant arc weld!
|
|
|
|
|