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Sept 23, 2017 18:07:37 GMT
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I'm trying to get a Carlton GSI 24V facelift going after being laid up for a good 10-15 years. I know the car was last taxed in 2003 but I don't know when it was last running, I'd assume 2004/2005 but it may have been running more recently. The car has what looks like an aftermarket immobilizer, There is a small sensor on the dashboard with a red L.E.D that is permanently lit when the car is parked up, you hold a small fob up to a sensor on the dashboard and the red light will go out/immobilizer is disarmed. I can hear a small click or relay or something getting enabled/switched on in behind the dash when the immobilizer gets disarmed which gives me the impression the immobilizer is working.
When I first got it I checked all the basics (oil, water) and put in a battery, With the immobilizer disarmed, When the ignition was turned on no fuel pump could be heard. I turned the engine over on the starter to ensure no nasty noises, etc. The engine turns freely. There was still no noise from the pump or pressure at the fuel rail. I pulled the fuel pump which was found to be seized solid and I changed it for another working one and whist I was there I drained the stale petrol out for fresh stuff.
With a known working pump in the tank, Turning on the ignition still yielded no noise from the fuel pump or pressure at the rail. A quick google shows that the fuel pump/injection relay to be the most common culprit for symptoms similar to what I've been having. I removed the relay and tried the one from my 24V parts car which made no difference. Reading on a site I found when searching on google (TotalCarlton I believe) that if you bridge pins 30 and 87b on the female end of the fuel pump/injection relay that the fuel pump will be powered. I tried this and it sent power to the fuel pump which sent good pressure to the fuel rail.
With one of the original relays fitted but with the fuel line pressurized beforehand using a bridge, turning the engine over still results in dry plugs making me believe the injectors are not getting power.
Believing that both relay's I have could have been faulty, I purchased a new aftermarket one off ebay. This was fitted to the car earlier today but made no difference. The problem remained exactly as before.
So to sum up the symptoms (When fitted with either of the old relays or the new relay). -There is a good spark. -The plugs are dry > The injectors are not getting power. -There is no fuel getting to the rail. -There is no power to the fuel pump.
Other things I've checked/done : - I've gone around all the fuses twice. None are blown. I've jiggled the fuses about in their holders in case of a bad connection. - The car has been outside for 15 years or but the interior and under the bonnet were fairly dry. I have stored the car indoors now for 10/12 days with the windows down/doors open to ensure any moisture/dampness that may be inside gets let out. - Removed ECU to check for corrosion at connector block. No corrosion to be found. - The car is automatic and the selector was in P (Park) the whole time. - The battery was well charged, it was fit to turn the engine over like no tomorrow.
I'm guessing that: 1) All 3 relays, both the 2 OE relays and the new aftermarket are faulty. 2) The immobilizer is fooling me in thinking it is working but it is cutting power to the fuel pump and injectors but not the ignition.
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Last Edit: Sept 23, 2017 18:33:37 GMT by sa1clover
1951 Ferguson TED 20 / 1988 Ford Sierra Sapphire 2.0 1990 Isuzu Bighorn 2.8 Irmscher R / 1991 Pajero 2.5 SWB 1991 Vauxhall Carlton GSI3000 / 1991 Toyota Corolla van 2.2TD 1992 Toyota Corolla 1.6 GTI / 93 Ford Granada Scorpio Cosworth 1994 Toyota Corolla GXI / 1995 Toyota Corolla 1.6 Si 1995 Nissan Vanette / 1997 Toyota Starlet 1.5td Glanza 1997 Toyota Carina E saloon / 1998 Toyota Carina 2.0 Exeuctive
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squonk
Part of things
Posts: 855
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Sept 23, 2017 18:50:08 GMT
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I'd sort out the fuel pump power first.
Before condemning the relays, do you actually have power to the relay coil? Put a test meter across the socket, pins 85 & 86 and see if you get 12v there when the ignition is turned on. If not, there is no point in going any further until you sort this problem out. I'm not familiar with the wiring on this car but its not uncommon for the fuel pump relay to be controlled by the engine ECU. Do you know if the ECU is even turning on?
Are you sure that the injectors are getting power to fire them? Check it with a plug in LED diagnostic device (plugs into the loom at the injector). It should flash when the engine is cranked. If it doesn't there is no trigger pulse to the injectors. It is also fairly common for injectors to stick when not used for a long period of time.
It may well be that the immobiliser is causing the fault depending on how it is wired in. If you can remove it I'd do that first as it takes a huge unknown out of the equation.
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2004 Chevrolet Avalanche Z71 2005 Mercedes CLK320 Cabriolet 1996 Mercedes C180 Elegance Auto Saloon 1996 Rover 620Ti (Dead fuel pump) 1992 Toyota HiLux Surf 1987 Range Rover Vogue (Rusty) 1992 Range Rover Vogue SE (More Rusty) 2006 Chrysler Grand Voyager 2008 Corsa 1.4 Design
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Sept 23, 2017 20:06:21 GMT
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You could bridge pin 30 to pin 87 as this is the feed to the injectors..
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Sept 23, 2017 20:13:57 GMT
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Fuel pump wiring Red-------- 12v battery Black------ 12v ignition Brown------ earth Brown blue- negative trigger from ECU Red blue--- fuel pump Red blue----injectors
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Sept 23, 2017 20:29:33 GMT
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I may add at this stage I'm not very electrically minded, electrics are defo not my strong point but taking it handy in small steps I should get there. I only have a very crude small battery/alternator tester on hand at the moment. It tells me if I'm getting 11/12/13 volts. Will try and get a proper multimeter tomorrow. Carlton fuel pump relay schematic. Image shamelessly stolen from 'von-opel' on TotalCarlton ( totalcarlton.com/forums/index.php?topic=6411.0 ) squonk I went down and tested pins 30 and 86. I was getting a good 12 volts at each pin through having the ignition off, after disarming immobilizer and ignition on but the second I turned the key to turn over the engine it stopped reading as if the power was removed from both pins. I'll need to check it again with a more accurate tester (The one I was using was very crude). Will head back down and check to see is the ECU getting power. Will also look further into the injectors getting power shortly. You could bridge pin 30 to pin 87 as this is the feed to the injectors.. I tried a double bridge before I got the replacement relay, a feed from 30 going to 87 and 87B. As far as I could tell this would power the fuel pump and the injectors but I don't think the injectors would be pulsing with this set up? I could be wrong all the same. The double bridge didn't seem to work anyways. Plugs remained dry although I had fuel getting to the rail no problems.
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1951 Ferguson TED 20 / 1988 Ford Sierra Sapphire 2.0 1990 Isuzu Bighorn 2.8 Irmscher R / 1991 Pajero 2.5 SWB 1991 Vauxhall Carlton GSI3000 / 1991 Toyota Corolla van 2.2TD 1992 Toyota Corolla 1.6 GTI / 93 Ford Granada Scorpio Cosworth 1994 Toyota Corolla GXI / 1995 Toyota Corolla 1.6 Si 1995 Nissan Vanette / 1997 Toyota Starlet 1.5td Glanza 1997 Toyota Carina E saloon / 1998 Toyota Carina 2.0 Exeuctive
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Sept 23, 2017 21:18:14 GMT
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If its any help here is the ECU pin out
Terminal Assignment of Control Unit (continued) Ter. 1 Ignition signal to ignition coil L 1/Ter. 1 Ter. 2 Ground of ignition final stage Ter. 3 Ground pulse of fuel pump relay Ter. 85b Ter. 4 Ground pulse of idle speed adjuster M 33 Ter. 5 Ground pulse of fuel tank vent valve Y 34 Ter. 6 Engine speed output signal to control unit of automatic trans AR 25/35 Ter. 11 or AF 14/20 Ter. 29 Ter. 7 Signal of air flow meter P 11/Ter. 2 Ter. 8 Unoccupied or signal of hall sensor Ter. 2 (C 30 SE) Ter. 9 Signal lead of odometer frequency sensor (only occupied with LCD instrument, board computer, radio SC 804) Ter. 10 Separate ground of oxygen sensor P 32 Ter. 11 Unoccupied or knock sensor 1 Ter. 2 (C 30 SE) Ter. 12 Voltage supply from air flow meter and throttle valve potentiometer (+5V) Ter. 13 Diagnostic excitation lead Ter. B in diagnostic plug X 13 Ter. 14 Ground for both injection valve final stages Ter. 15 Unoccupied Ter. 16 Ground pulse for injection valves (cylinder 1 + 2) of final stage 1 or cylinder 1 - 3 Ter. 17 Ground pulse for injection valves (cylinder 3 + 4) of final stage 2 or cylinder 4 - 6 Ter. 18 Voltage supply of fault memory (permanent positive Ter. 30) Ter. 19 Ground of electronics Ter. 20 Exhaust gas coding US' 83 unoccupied, ECE to ground Ter. 21 Transmission coding, for AT vehicles to ground Ter. 22 Ground pulse of engine telltale Ter. 23 Unoccupied or air conditioning compressor cut-off relay Ter. 24 Ground of final stages, tank ventilation, engine telltale, idle speed adjuster, twin relay Ter. 25 Unoccupied Ter. 26 Ground of air flow meter, temperature sensor, throttle valve potentiometer, octane number Ter. 27 Voltage supply of control unit Ter. 15 Ter. 28 Signal lead of oxygen sensor P 32 (only occupied with closed loop catalytic converters) Ter. 29 Unoccupied or knock sensor 2, Ter. 2 (C 30 SE) Ter. 30 Unoccupied or knock sensor 1, Ter. 1 (C 30 SE) Ter. 31 Unoccupied or hall sensor (+Ubat) Ter. 3 (C 30 SE) Ter. 32 Ti output signal for board computer Ter. 33 Unoccupied or collector pipe switching - ground - (C 30 SE) Ter. 34 Unoccupied or throttle valve potentiometer (PWM) to control unit AR 25/35 Ter. 55 or AF 14/20 Ter. 25 Ter. 35 Unoccupied Ter. 36 Ground pulse main relay Ter. 85 Ter. 37 Voltage supply of control unit from main relay Ter. 87 Ter. 38 Unoccupied Ter. 39 Unoccupied or external programming lead Ter. 40 AC compressor input switch (+Ubat) Ter. 41 AC stand-by switch input (+Ubat) Ter. 42 Transmission coding, AT: unoccupied, MT: ground Ter. 43 Idle speed CO potentiometer signal lead (ECE only) Ter. 44 Intake air temperature sensor signal lead Ter. 45 Coolant temperature sensor signal lead Ter. 46 Octane number adjustment coding plug or unoccupied (C 30 SE) Ter. 47 Unoccupied or transmission oil temperature switch (ground) Ter. 48 Inductive pulse pick-up (signal) Ter. 49 Inductive pulse pick-up (ground); for C 24 NE, MY '89 terminals 47 to 49 are exchanged Ter. 50 Unoccupied Ter. 51 Transmission engagement signal from control unit AR 25/35 Ter. 4 or AF 14/20 Ter. 13 Ter. 52 Unoccupied Ter. 53 Throttle valve potentiometer signal lead Ter. 3 Ter. 54 Unoccupied or engine oil temperature switch Ter. 55 Bidirectional data lead in diagnostic plug Ter. G
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Sept 23, 2017 21:24:43 GMT
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Thanks for the ECU pin identification guide that could come in very handy. I checked ECU input pin 27 the same way I checked the fuel/injection relay pins with the crude voltage guage. I was getting a good 12 volts at the pin through having the ignition off, after disarming immobilizer and ignition on but the second I turned the key to turn over the engine it stopped reading as if the power was removed. I will recheck this in the morning to see if the power is getting pulled completely or if it is just dropping below 10 or 11 volts.
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1951 Ferguson TED 20 / 1988 Ford Sierra Sapphire 2.0 1990 Isuzu Bighorn 2.8 Irmscher R / 1991 Pajero 2.5 SWB 1991 Vauxhall Carlton GSI3000 / 1991 Toyota Corolla van 2.2TD 1992 Toyota Corolla 1.6 GTI / 93 Ford Granada Scorpio Cosworth 1994 Toyota Corolla GXI / 1995 Toyota Corolla 1.6 Si 1995 Nissan Vanette / 1997 Toyota Starlet 1.5td Glanza 1997 Toyota Carina E saloon / 1998 Toyota Carina 2.0 Exeuctive
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Sept 24, 2017 14:51:13 GMT
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Right I purchased a cheap and nasty multimeter this morning.
Fuel pump relay pin 30 is getting 12.6 volts through after disarming immobilizer and ignition on but the second I turned the key to turn over the engine it drops to 10.5 or so volts. The same happens to pin 86. Pin 27 on the ECU drops from 11.6 volts to 10.3 or so when turning the engine over.
I am getting 11.7 volts at pins 85/86 with the ignition turned on, dropping to 9.6 when turning engine. The ECU is defo getting power to pin 27.
I am getting 12.15 volts to red/blue wire in the big 3 pin plug going to the injectors loom.
I am getting 9.6 volts at fuse 16 (fuel pump fuse) when you turn the engine over. This fuse is only getting powered when the engine is turning. Despite the fact I'm getting power at the fuse there is no pressure at the fuel rail and no noise from the pump. I will go back down and check for power at the pump.
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1951 Ferguson TED 20 / 1988 Ford Sierra Sapphire 2.0 1990 Isuzu Bighorn 2.8 Irmscher R / 1991 Pajero 2.5 SWB 1991 Vauxhall Carlton GSI3000 / 1991 Toyota Corolla van 2.2TD 1992 Toyota Corolla 1.6 GTI / 93 Ford Granada Scorpio Cosworth 1994 Toyota Corolla GXI / 1995 Toyota Corolla 1.6 Si 1995 Nissan Vanette / 1997 Toyota Starlet 1.5td Glanza 1997 Toyota Carina E saloon / 1998 Toyota Carina 2.0 Exeuctive
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Sept 26, 2017 4:24:01 GMT
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What volt reading you getting at battery with no load? If you flick on ignition does it drop any? You should maintain about 13.5v. I had a similar problem with a cavy, it was turning over ok but all power the battery had was turning engine there was none left for ECU/fuel pump etc. to run enough to build up pressure. Changed battery and boom away it went.
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Last Edit: Sept 26, 2017 4:24:49 GMT by grifter01
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Sept 26, 2017 14:01:33 GMT
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Made a cheap and cheerful noid light using a side repeater of a van I broke for parts, hooked it to injector 1 and injector 6 (other 4 injectors are hidden by the inlet manifold). Both injectors were pulsing as they should be.
Cam's appear to be turning. Fuel is getting to the rail. Injectors are pulsing but all the plugs are dry. I'm thinking all 6 injectors are blocked solid so will remove them in the coming days and try to clean them/send them away for cleaning.
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1951 Ferguson TED 20 / 1988 Ford Sierra Sapphire 2.0 1990 Isuzu Bighorn 2.8 Irmscher R / 1991 Pajero 2.5 SWB 1991 Vauxhall Carlton GSI3000 / 1991 Toyota Corolla van 2.2TD 1992 Toyota Corolla 1.6 GTI / 93 Ford Granada Scorpio Cosworth 1994 Toyota Corolla GXI / 1995 Toyota Corolla 1.6 Si 1995 Nissan Vanette / 1997 Toyota Starlet 1.5td Glanza 1997 Toyota Carina E saloon / 1998 Toyota Carina 2.0 Exeuctive
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Sept 26, 2017 14:04:10 GMT
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The fuel pump relay powers the fuel pump and every sensor and injectors in the engine. It has two relays in it - you can split the wiring and use two seperate relays like they did in later GM cars. To diagnose if it's the FPR, just bridge the fat red wire with the red/blue wire, and it will 12v everything in the engine bay. Every red/blue wire you find is powered by the FPR. All the sensors and fuel pump is activated by the ECU by grounding the return wire (usually a corresponding colour with brown trace going back to the ECU). So checking for live won't help if the ECU isn't closing the circuit. If they are all live on ignition I'd swap the ECU. Check it's not damp. Have had FPR relay trouble with every Vauxhall. Crappy Bosch.
BTW if the crank sensor is kaput, the ECU won't earth anything. Bosch crank sensors are as flakey as their fuel pump relays.
If you get stuck I've got a few working genuine FPRs.
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Last Edit: Oct 1, 2017 20:42:30 GMT by DavidB
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,188
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Sept 26, 2017 19:24:07 GMT
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One way to see if it fires up is to disconnect the injector. If these are like Bosch Motronic the ECU will shut down the injectors if it senses the fuel pump pressure is too high, but it will run with a disconnected injector.
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Removed all 6 injectors and as expected they were blocked solid. They don't even click when power is applied to them. Tried doing a bit of ''backyard diy injector cleaning'' on them with carb cleaner but no luck. I pulled the 6 injectors from the red parts car. Tested them and each one clicked as they should. Backflushed each one with carb cleaner and then ran carb cleaner through them to remove any gunk/dirt that may be in them. Reassembled everything and she fired up first try. Thanks to everyone for your assistance.
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1951 Ferguson TED 20 / 1988 Ford Sierra Sapphire 2.0 1990 Isuzu Bighorn 2.8 Irmscher R / 1991 Pajero 2.5 SWB 1991 Vauxhall Carlton GSI3000 / 1991 Toyota Corolla van 2.2TD 1992 Toyota Corolla 1.6 GTI / 93 Ford Granada Scorpio Cosworth 1994 Toyota Corolla GXI / 1995 Toyota Corolla 1.6 Si 1995 Nissan Vanette / 1997 Toyota Starlet 1.5td Glanza 1997 Toyota Carina E saloon / 1998 Toyota Carina 2.0 Exeuctive
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