Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,714
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Sept 28, 2017 9:04:52 GMT
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Thus discussion would be far simpler if people actually READ THE GOVERNMENT RESPONSE DOCUMENT before commenting.
This system really is far cleverer than people are giving it credit for. It's a very simple way of gaining a huge amount of information about all vehicles registered in the historic class, plus weed out all radically modified vehicles illegally hiding away in there too.
Step one- they ask all those with a vehicle of relevant age to qualify for MOT exemption if it is modified or not. Simple yes/no answer.
Step two- owners that answer no may fall subject to a random inspection to make sure they're telling the truth. No different to how they currently randomly inspect imports when registered to make sure they're not modified. The resources ARE there, they're done 3rd party by a company called SGS and the inspectors are far more clued up that you think. This system is already there, they don't have to change anything, just refer you for an inspection. They don't have to inspect all cars, just generate a bit of fear that they will, coupled with the heavy penalties this will get most people telling the truth. Expect certain makes and models to be far more likely to get inspected than others. Also, ignorance is not an excuse. It says if you are unsure to seek the advice of an expert before declaring yes or no.
Owners that answer yes, expect to get the built up vehicle form in the post. You will have to fill this in declaring what vehicle is major component is from, and therefore how many points you have. They'll pick out any interesting or erroneous looking ones, and inspect em. (Claim to have fitted a 5L v8 into a A35 without changing anything else? Expect them to come knocking. zetec into an escort? Maybe less so). They DO know about cars and trends for certain mods in certain scenes. I know this from dealing with them first hand. They also have a general idea for what can be done with and without cutting bits you're not allowed to cut. If you fill in this form and openly state you do not have 8 points, hand in your V5 and go straight to BIVA. you've just incriminated yourself. If you lie expect to get into trouble. Again, ignorance isn't a defence.
Step 3- inspection. If they think they have cause to have a look at your car, you'll get referred to SGS for an inspection. This is basically a VIC check plus. They ask for 1m space around the car and access to chassis and engine numbers. Afaik they aren't allowed to remove anything or jack the car up. Their inspectors are canny, they're mostly insurance assessors who've been given extra training and told what to look for. They'll take pics, especially of anything they think isn't right, and submit a report to the DVLA about if they think you car should retain its ID or not. They may not have specific knowledge of your exact make and model, but Presentation is everything, if something looks like it's obviously been changed or messed with, it will attract attention. Make everything look as hunky dory as possible, because getting an OK straight off the bat is far easier than trying to contest an inspectors report and having to come up with proof of where components came from. A live axle swapped for a live axle still on stock leafs painted to match its surroundings probably isn't going to raise any questions if you don't mention it's been changed. A IFS where a beam axle is meant to be isn't going to fly though. Any obvious chassis or Monocoque mods are gunna set alarm bells ringing. If they've very well hidden, or done so you can't tell they've been done, you might get em through. Depends how well the inspector knows your specific model of vehicle.
Pass the inspection- no problem, carry on MOTing you tax exempt car as a modified classic within the 8 point rule.
Fail the inspection- BIVA unless you can prove the inspector is wrong. This can be done but is not easy. You would need pretty strong documentary evidence to prove enough items came From the original car AND they're not modified.
So, any car outside the 8 point rule is going to be found and it's ID revoked pretty easily. A lot of those cars can't be BIVAd by their current owners as they didnt build them, so they will have to be rebuilt or broken up. Some will be able to be modified to pass the test so will Live again, some realistically won't as they wont be viable, in terms of time or money required to get them passable.
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Last Edit: Sept 28, 2017 11:55:11 GMT by Dez
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Sept 28, 2017 9:11:06 GMT
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In which case, I raise the question again, which I have done before. How much and what do retro cars have to fear from IVA (beyond the annoying and vexing potential expense), glass maybe? Radius'? Assuming the car is reasonably well built.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,714
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Sept 28, 2017 9:29:02 GMT
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In which case, I raise the question again, which I have done before. How much and what do retro cars have to fear from IVA (beyond the annoying and vexing potential expense), glass maybe? Radius'? Assuming the car is reasonably well built. It's too Much of an open ended question to be able to answer fully. first you'd have to define retro, and i think we've been there a few times before. Most cars after about 1988 when SVA came in should more or less pass without mods. Anything type approved definately should. The older the car gets, the More issues you get. Glass is a major one as you say, internal radii on switchgear etc. Are more likely to fail than most external radii. Seatbelt mounts are an issue, most aren't high enough on the B pillar, pre-mid 70s most seats will fail too (no headrests). Then on 60s and early 70s stuff things like lighting positions start to come into play. Really, it has to be assessed on a car by car basis. The guidelines are here- www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/556944/m1-iva-inspection-manual.pdf
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Sept 28, 2017 9:31:28 GMT
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Really, it has to be assessed on a car by car basis. The guidelines are here- Oh for sure, it was more, what would be the likely points... internal radii on switches is less of a problem, than say e-marked glass for some cars. I'd say majority of stuff is 70-95 for what we have here with a few out layers in either directions.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,714
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Sept 28, 2017 9:58:19 GMT
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Yeah, I get you.
What you've got to remember is that not all Manufacturers where building cars to the same degree at any set date. For example lada where still selling Rivas in 1996 that were type approved uk market cars, but were a 1980 rebodys of a 1960s basic design, with only the bare minimum of bolt on upgrades to jump through any Legislative hoops required.
Conversely mainstream manufacturers like ford, Vauxhall, VW, bmw, Merc etc. We're 3 or 4 generations into cars specifically designed to first and foremost meet type approval regs for all prospective markets, and then were styled and engines chosen to comply with emissions regs after that.
The further back you go the more instances of that you see- most European cars (all those sold in the US market) had a very hasty rehash of bumpers and lights in about 1967 to meet federal crash testing requirements in the US, as they all failed the criteria imposed, but they didn't have time to do a full redesign in time to get the car to market.
Which is why it's very difficult to give a definitive answer.
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Sept 28, 2017 10:03:42 GMT
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Dez , a great write up. Now, none of this will ever effect me but I've been following the thread and this bit seems a shame... So, any car outside the 8 point rule is going to be found and it's ID revoked pretty easily. A lot of those cars can't be BIVAd by their current owners as they didnt build them, so they will have to be rebuilt or broken up. So, if I'd bought the vehicle off, say, blackpopracing before it was caught up in the rules, as it subsequently was, I couldn't do the same work as he is doing (even if I had the skill) to comply and get it through a BIVA?
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edk83
Part of things
Posts: 849
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Sept 28, 2017 10:14:44 GMT
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Would be the full IVA according to the dvsa
You'd have to sell it back to him for the week it got tested !
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,714
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Sept 28, 2017 10:21:32 GMT
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Dez , a great write up. Now, none of this will ever effect me but I've been following the thread and this bit seems a shame... So, any car outside the 8 point rule is going to be found and it's ID revoked pretty easily. A lot of those cars can't be BIVAd by their current owners as they didnt build them, so they will have to be rebuilt or broken up. So, if I'd bought the vehicle off, say, blackpopracing before it was caught up in the rules, as it subsequently was, I couldn't do the same work as he is doing (even if I had the skill) to comply and get it through a BIVA? In a word, no. To be allowed the concession of only having to do the basic IVA, amateur vehicles have to be submitted by the person who built them.
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Sept 28, 2017 10:23:46 GMT
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To be allowed the concession of only having to do the basic IVA, amateur vehicles have to be submitted by the person who built them. Now THIS is a worry. I wonder how much you'd have to take a car apart and put it back together before they were willing to say you built it? Again this is of potential business interest to someone with the skills, to take a car, take it apart enough to inspect and double check, put it back together and BIVA it, then return it to the owner, over time I'm guessing the more they did the quicker and easier (and more profitable) it would be.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,714
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Sept 28, 2017 10:27:01 GMT
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This is the wording used-
c. Amateur Built A vehicle is an amateur built vehicle if: (a) the vehicle was, constructed, assembled or having previously been registered under the 1994 Act, structurally modified, for the personal use of a person (R) who is a relevant individual, and (b) the whole, or a substantial part, of the construction, assembly or modification was carried out by R, by one or more relevant individuals acting on behalf, and under the direction, of R or by R and one or more relevant individuals acting on behalf, and under the direction of R.
It doesn't say you have to have done EVERYTHING yourself, and technically you could say You could say you commissioned someone else to build it under your instruction within the wording, but if you say that, they're going to want proof. Not sure what that would have to be? Invoices? a contract? A build sheet? Just opens another can of worms really.
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Last Edit: Sept 28, 2017 10:28:53 GMT by Dez
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edk83
Part of things
Posts: 849
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Sept 28, 2017 10:31:35 GMT
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I think they want receipts mainly for parts and paying for the building of it
You'd have to take it to bits, gift all the parts to someone. Then buy the parts back for £1 and photograph it being put back together either by yourself or someone you are paying to do it.
That's basically what they are saying! (or in other words if you build a car that doesn't have 8 points and not get round to biva testing it you have sod all chance of selling it).
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Sept 28, 2017 10:41:02 GMT
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Interesting... I have no invoice for my engine as I bought it from someone on here. I gear box and suspension components came from Ebay so I may have an email somewhere.
Can you voluntarily go for BIVA even if it doesn't hit the 8 point rule? Could be tempted to take one for the team and try and BIVA the Sunny, and see what they come back with, would be a reasonable test bed for these kinds of things and how mess up it may all get.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,714
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Sept 28, 2017 10:45:42 GMT
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Personally I think it's been deliberately designed to work that way to catch out all the people still trying to sneak modified historic tax cars in as fresh imports. Say 50s pickups coming In from the states already clipped, notched and bagged. If you manage to get one through without it being inspected and get it registered, you then have to go through the system I've mentioned above. If you claim ignorance you've lied on the import documents where they ask if it's modified, and you'll be referred back to HMRC to pay the 20% import duty you should have paid because your vehicle isn't actually historic, not the 5% you did. They may or may not decide to prosecute you for that. Then you'll loose your ID.
Or, go through the system as it's now designed and loose the ID somewhere along the way anyway. You'll then have to entuely rebuild the car if you want to keep it as you can't prove you built it.
There's no getting away from it now, that's the point. They'll catch up with you eventually one way or another.
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Sept 28, 2017 10:51:38 GMT
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There's no getting away from it now, that's the point. They'll catch up with you eventually one way or another. It is a shame people in certain communities didn't listen to Mr.Rooney earlier and try and shape this so it made more sense for them. I'm pretty sanguine about it for 'our' stuff. A few test cases etc. and we'll find a way through it all (probably learning at the same time the testers are learning). I don't take it as a direct attack on modified cars etc. but I do hope that we aren't collateral damage in their push for lost tax, and maybe a more 'modern' MOT regime?
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Sept 28, 2017 11:06:49 GMT
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This is the wording used- c. Amateur Built A vehicle is an amateur built vehicle if: (a) the vehicle was, constructed, assembled or having previously been registered under the 1994 Act, structurally modified, for the personal use of a person (R) who is a relevant individual, and (b) the whole, or a substantial part, of the construction, assembly or modification was carried out by R, by one or more relevant individuals acting on behalf, and under the direction, of R or by R and one or more relevant individuals acting on behalf, and under the direction of R. It doesn't say you have to have done EVERYTHING yourself, and technically you could say You could say you commissioned someone else to build it under your instruction within the wording, but if you say that, they're going to want proof. Not sure what that would have to be? Invoices? a contract? A build sheet? Just opens another can of worms really. So professional tradespeople, rod shops etc can carry on as before, because it's the car owner's responsibility to make the car legal? As long as the professional provides all relevant bills and proof of work done, which you'd expect if you were investing any significant cash and trusting your car into someone else's hands. You'd probably want the aforesaid tradespeople to have a good working knowledge of BIVA and so on, so they could advise the customer whether the car they want will actually be allowed on the roads. Where things seem to get a bit blurry is where people get friends and acquaintances to do work (i.e. I'll decorate your bathroom in exchange for you building my chassis, or similar) or secondhand parts that have been through so many hand that nobody knows how old they are or where they came from and certainly no receipts exist.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,714
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Sept 28, 2017 11:24:30 GMT
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There's no getting away from it now, that's the point. They'll catch up with you eventually one way or another. It is a shame people in certain communities didn't listen to Mr.Rooney earlier and try and shape this so it made more sense for them. I'm pretty sanguine about it for 'our' stuff. A few test cases etc. and we'll find a way through it all (probably learning at the same time the testers are learning). I don't take it as a direct attack on modified cars etc. but I do hope that we aren't collateral damage in their push for lost tax, and maybe a more 'modern' MOT regime? Tbh, I don't think anything Kev could have done would have changed any of this. The laws have been in place for 30 years, people just chose to ignore them as they weren't being enforced until recently. This is probably all off the back of the DVLA becoming a self funding Goverment department. It was previously your typical woefully inneficcient government department that didn't have to worry about money, just legislation. Now every decision is based on efficiency and revenue, it's run very differently. They see lost revenue, they chase it. People knew how to play the system because it was actually pretty difficult to get caught out. But now A couple of very simple little law changes, and that's all the loopholes gone. Notice all the possible new offences pertain to some type of fraud being committed rather than it being a basic offence. Because they're viewed by the law as premeditated acts, the penalties are higher. There will be a few very well publicised test cases where people are hit very hard for not telling the truth about things, to make sure everyone else complies. After a few years, a grand or two to put a car through BIVA will be seen as the cheap and easy option rather than flaunting the law and running the Risk of prosecution.
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Sept 28, 2017 11:32:54 GMT
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After a few years, a grand or two to put a car through BIVA will be seen as the cheap and easy option rather than flaunting the law and running the Risk of prosecution. For radically altered vehicles. People will change the way they modified maybe... maybe less engine swaps that require gearbox hole moves etc. ... ... so about that Gentleman's Racer look
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,714
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Sept 28, 2017 11:36:55 GMT
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After a few years, a grand or two to put a car through BIVA will be seen as the cheap and easy option rather than flaunting the law and running the Risk of prosecution. For radically altered vehicles. People will change the way they modified maybe... maybe less engine swaps that require gearbox hole moves etc. ... ... so about that Gentleman's Racer look Oh yeah, there going to be a definate split in how cars are modified in this county- those that still keep 8 points and those that need BIVA. But the biggest change is going to be people actually considering the rules before they wade in with the angle grinder, instead of just ignoring them.
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Sept 28, 2017 12:17:07 GMT
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could someone point out in the document where it says MOT testers are going to be scrutinising the cars originality please (in response to hotrat)
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Last Edit: Sept 28, 2017 12:22:03 GMT by darrenh
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Sept 28, 2017 12:47:20 GMT
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My ears are burning I've withdrawn from most media because of dealing with so much stupidity simply became over whelming . For instance on this thread if I answer one question tey'll be many more with some convulted questions that won't actually make any difference . I could spend every waking moment on forus trying to educate a brick wall...so I simply don't bother. Dez is correct NOTHING could be changed about the 8 point rule no will 'you' be abl et now. What I ( and ACE ) tried to do was educate people to the EXISTING rules before people started getting caught. We also sought to warn and delay ( we were never going to win only buy time ) against legislation such as te MOT Consultation which has ALREADY been passed into law on the 14th of Septemeber by a Staturory Instrument and it come sinto affect tail end of May next year . There is NOTHING to chnage apart from the definition of 'substantially changed' FOR THE PURPOSES OF MOT it is nothing whatsoever to do with identity. ALL this legislation does is decide which cars will be MOTd INCLUDING those laready exempt under the existing pre 60 more exemption so it IS retrospective. Like Dez says all in the documents if you read them. So everyone is running around like headles chickens right now...WHY? NO one has said that DVLA are coming looking for illegally modified cars. However this very cleverly worded and written document facilitates the tools for them to do so IF THEY WISH . IF they do then all ACES warnings are vindicated , if they don't then we , and ME especially, were talking rubbish. The entire point was for ACE to tell 'you' to get your act today whilst we delayed the inevitable. If 'you' are worried you probably have just reason . The bulk of the old ACE team hav econtinued trying to find whays forward and it is why we never foscued entirely on Historic but also worked with BIVA . Right now I run a closed BIVA group with around 80 live projects of different styles and genres .We are only adding LIVE builds and it is PURELY for BIVA. I still deal directly with legislation queries but as no-one value dthe free advice ther is anow a charge of a donation to my local hospice before I will answer. I have just completed an 8 page pamphlet which is a Dummies Guide to BIVA. Plain English trasnlation of the manual and it includes registration planning tips and many handy tips I have collected whilst carrying on getting around 20 odd vehicles regsitered meanwhile. The pamphlet is available for a £10 donation DIRECT to the charity. I won't be answrering questions on here or anywhere else on the 'net as naysayers have beaten all the DIRECT fight out of me after 12 YEARS of trying to clear the sand from peoples eyes. This isn't a negative post quite the contrary . It's saying , yet again, that we need to build within the 8 points system or use BIVA. It's eminenetly doable for most post 80s cars with very little changes needed. Biggest stumbling block IS glass specs but there is leanty of leeway to asseist with this on later cars . We've even had screens specially made and tested on early Yank stuff. The big thing is that 'YOU' need to go off and find out about it and not expect to be spoon fed answers realting purely to your vehicle. Please eacuse any typing errors as aftera TIA a little while back what I think I'm typing ( and rereading ) often doesn't agree with what you are now seeing
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