pegwie
Part of things
Posts: 95
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Sept 10, 2017 21:18:17 GMT
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Hello, new here but not new to cars. I come from a VW/Vag background, my current stable is my daily mk2 caddy that I pd130 converted & my Corrado R32 (currently stripped down for resto). Anyway, onto this Civic! I've not had a Honda before, so bare with me in regards to all the funny engine codes etc Got it off my friend as he was intending to make it a hillclimb car, but has since got an Integra type R. It's a 1.3 DX Auto in white, has done roughly 67k miles. Oh WOW you might think, low mileage! Well, erm, sorry to dissapoint but as usual with these it's got a few rust issues shall we say. Still, I've seen far worse obviously being into vw's normally! Instead of more words, I shall just offload a random assortment of images to show you the condition of the car currently... N/S/R inner arch O/S/R inner arch (you may notice the spot welds...more on that shortly My friend had made a start on the becauseRacecar flat boot floor... Which i promptly removed to re do it. Remnants & cut lines still present. I shall be doing this properly after I have done the arches. I do like the brace bar he put in so that will stay! Anyway I am sure you are missing seeing some photos of rust by now after that brief diversion, so here; the O/S/R inner & outer sill Rear of the arch Now to explain the odd spot welds showing on the inside of the car. At somepoint this civic has been at a bodyshop, where instead of cutting out the rust and welding in a new arch, they have literally just spot welded the new panel over the rust and then filled/painted to make it look normal! Why, just why!? So here is the double skin from their "repair" Yes, that is the original arch under the repair arch I cut off...not only that, they also stripped the original arch of all paint?! um okay then! The finish is as they left it. Then this is where I am up to. I will have to trim a lot of the inner arch away as it's rotten, I have just left it in place for now until I make a template from it to replace. Outer arch repair panels are on the way for both sides. I will shape up some repair sections for the sill, couldn't justify doing the whole lot as aside from the ends, there's only a patch each side that needs sorting. Future plans are; Sort the bodywork and get rid of the rot first and foremost. Then, MOT, drive it til I find a nice prelude donor or accord. I was tempted to put in a vag 20vt I have sat in the garage, but I really like the revvy nature of a vtec engine- something I have not had before as I've always had either turbocharged cars or 6 cylinders! I should hopefully have fairly regular updates. Cheers
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Last Edit: Jan 1, 2020 14:16:17 GMT by pegwie
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Sept 11, 2017 8:37:16 GMT
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That arch repair is pretty amazing!
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79cord
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,608
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Sept 11, 2017 11:23:53 GMT
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Painful to see all of that rust work required, but glad to see it getting the love. Glad the worst rust on my ED projects seems to be windscreen frame.. Aside from bad repairs & clowns jacking up the floor reinforcements. Man. trans alone should make it fun. Basic injected D16 1.6 sohc nice & with Vtec options. D16 Dohc a jewel. B16 more revvy thrills. Quite aside from newer/bigger options that require a little more work to fit. So far I've just swapped in Concerto's 1.6 & disc brakes, but probably D16 vtec or DOHC next.
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Last Edit: Sept 13, 2017 12:06:51 GMT by 79cord
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pegwie
Part of things
Posts: 95
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Sept 11, 2017 19:32:29 GMT
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Isn't it just Hotwire! Yes, it is but then it could have been a lot worse i think. Another year on the road and it'd have been 10 times worse I'd imagine. Is the ED the same shape as this one or the one before? I'm still a bit unsure on all the model codes! I gather EE, EC, EF & ED are pretty much the same but for usdm/jdm etc or is that completely wrong? haha. That sounds fun though! Have you got a build thread on it? What brake upgrades are available for these do you know? I did a bit more digging this evening. Happy to see the rot doesn't extend too far into the sill Trimmed some of the rear quarter panel off to get better access to the inner sill & see the extent of the rust Luckily, the rot had only spread just below the point where the floorpan goes off into lots of wonderful tricky shapes, so I can just weld in a flat section. I cut all the rot out of the inner sill, the bit on the right is actually solid, it's just remnants of the outer sill that's rusty I went to my mates farm to pick up the trim pieces he'd removed, in the corner of the barn I see some civic metal poking out..so i brought it back with me. I'm going to weld it back on I think as with a bit of tweaking it reshaped ok Then I can just fill in the gaps with sheet metal. Found that is has some Gmax something or other shocks and springs on? Any good? Welding time tomorrow!
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Last Edit: Jan 17, 2018 23:45:09 GMT by pegwie
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79cord
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,608
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Sept 11, 2017 22:06:05 GMT
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I'd have thought yours an ED as well really with EE&EF for upper spec European &Japanese spec respectively, EE/EF9 the top B16A vtec Civic hatch. Slight progress on mine are mixed up in my Honda collective thread in my sig.
Concerto, ED - EK Civic & DC Integra rear trailing arms with discs fit straight on, as do Type R though they're different stud patterns. Related Rovers likely too. I don't know about really big brake conversions but 2nd gen Integra & Vtec EE,EF front knuckles mount calipers further out for 260mm discs (later knuckles have relocated steering arm), early CRV share Integra typeR calipers have bigger carriers for 280 (260 on std. Knuckles), though aren't especially light & bigger wheel cylinders req. appropriate master cyl. & proportion valves. I just had Japanese Concerto calipers for slightly bigger pads like ED Civic Si & 16v CRX (1.6 DOHC). There are other options in between. Don't forget MB? Civic vtec & MG Rover options like ZT 180(?) that US dominated forums wouldn't know about leaving them a British secret. 4guk civic forum worth a look. I'd think deeper original spare well & back panel would help a little with body rigidity, though I like some companies ideas of mounting floor to bottom of frame rails.
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Last Edit: Sept 11, 2017 22:45:05 GMT by 79cord
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pegwie
Part of things
Posts: 95
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Sept 11, 2017 22:52:52 GMT
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That's great information, thanks very much I can make a shopping list for the next time I go to the breakers yard. I take it I need the whole trailing arm setup, not just the stub axles? (I assume they have these bolted on rather than a whole unit, not even looked yet to be honest!) I will need to look into that, as there is usually a good few mg's in the scrap yard. Yeah I've seen the 4G forum actually, not delved very deeply yet though. Yes, it's partly why I wanted to put it back in as best I can, another alternative for me would be to put another brace in between the chassis legs further back. I will just have to see how re-attaching the back panel goes
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79cord
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,608
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Sept 12, 2017 15:03:36 GMT
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Rear stub axle definitely unbolts from trailing arm & disc parts could be swapped on though it doesn't sound like many bother, & I had found brake hose mtgs differed but I'm sure could be resolved. Obviously there'd plenty on the forum to enjoy your VW exploits when you manage, though sadly it doesn't sound like Honda offers quite the parts interchangeability of VW without the supply of Integra donors America enjoyed (making Vtec ones especially stolen there), given Honda's eagerness to change things & don't hear of too many Accord/Prelude drivetrains readily being fitted into Civics, though many may make the extra effort for EP3 Civic & Accord K20/K24 engines despite the challenges of a very different drivetrain layout. This may give interesting bad ideas & some info on Rover interchangeably & experimentations don't have so much experience of: retrorides.proboards.com/thread/187858/rover-coupe-project-finally-running (Which reminded me that CRV calipers need mm's off to clear some discs).
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Last Edit: Sept 13, 2017 12:03:32 GMT by 79cord
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pegwie
Part of things
Posts: 95
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Sept 16, 2017 0:02:39 GMT
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So I got some of the welding done now, just the sill section & rear quarter patch near the door to go back in. Removed more of the arch, i know you are supposed to remove as little good metal as possible, but i had to remove this much to get rid of the previous double skinned bodge by someone...more rust More Cut out Then I cut out all the rust along the arch etc, new metal welded in, it's not the prettiest but it s the inner arch so I spent a lot of time getting it to match the outer arch so it sat right. Forgot to take more pics of this stage, i rebuilt the inner sill and rear corner etc. Panel on to check final fitment, happy with that so got on with it Gradually filled in the spot welds to stop it warping, rear corner has some welding to do to mate it to the corner fully but it's about there. Just need to dress the weld now, didn't have another flappy disc Sill end capped off,everything getting a coat of zinc primer & seam sealed where needed Here is the back corner that I pictured above, had to remove a lot of old material. Is nice and solid again now And on the inside Welder decided it wanted to leak gas somewhere so I need to fix that before I do any more. FInishing the outer sill is next
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Last Edit: Jan 17, 2018 23:49:20 GMT by pegwie
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79cord
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,608
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Sept 16, 2017 3:25:17 GMT
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Wow. Much speed & bravery borne of experience on display there. Great & amazing to see it all. Keeping original style arch lip or folding/rolling the edge over all the way once done?
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pegwie
Part of things
Posts: 95
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Sept 17, 2017 20:49:51 GMT
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Wow. Much speed & bravery borne of experience on display there. Great & amazing to see it all. Keeping original style arch lip or folding/rolling the edge over all the way once done? Going off your earlier comments about the H22 & later K24 engines, which would you prefer? I know the H22 engines are getting on a bit age wise now, along with higher miles. I have read the K24 from the newer accord is quite lazy, but brings the torque. There is information regarding a remap which brings the vtec in much earlier at 4600rpm instead of 6 ish or whenever it normally comes in..I am not one to shy away from a tricky engine conversion so I don't mind that it will need completely custom mounts/shafts/wiring etc. I'd just like to find an engine setup suitable. A full accord in decent shape can be had sub £1k here, with the 2.4 in. Again an older 2.2 prelude can be had for £400-1k so there isn't that much between them in regards to donor costs. Actually now I think about it, an EP3 civic type R, pre facelift, can even be had at around £1300 now with the k20 in. I suppose I could find a right off for decent money, I just haven't actually been out in one/any of the above before to know what they're like! The only thing I have been in is a K20/K24 hybrid integra which was just awesome. But again, all of this when for the same hassle I could put in, for example, the VAG 1.8 20v turbo engine setup I have in the garage sitting about (well, a few ha!). Which with a simple remap/breathing/cooling mods would bring around 230bhp/lbft. The bonus of this is that I already have it all, with the cost being much less. It would annoy some purists too I'm sure which I always enjoy Thanks for the comments on the welding, I just hate seeing rot so the sooner it's gone, the less I am stuck dwelling & thinking about it! I will be keeping the original arch lip, unless it is necessary to roll it but I'd prefer to leave as is if I can get away with it, wheel dependant.
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Last Edit: Sept 17, 2017 20:51:43 GMT by pegwie
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Sept 17, 2017 21:21:23 GMT
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@ CRX_IN_SCOTLAND
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79cord
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,608
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Sept 18, 2017 8:27:48 GMT
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The 4th gen Civics wouldn't be the easiest to swap engines into. Honda gave them a 1"-2" higher bonnet & added a dent/recess in the left frame rail for alternator clearance to squeeze the B16A into them. EG/EK Civics adding about 50mm of wheelbase to the engine bay before the firewall & more overhang as well. I can't speak of K20/24 experiences myself even though uncle has '03 Integra Type-S, but while I have enjoyed a brief drive of an H22 Prelude I think is has to be eliminated. Prelude raked them slightly rearward, with intake manifold behind in a longer engine bay making them an awkward fit into Civics although it was certainly done. A friend fitted one to his 2nd gen Integra with American mounts, & they had to mount it further forward, adding front weight & consuming driveshafts due to angle, so they developed a reputation for poor handling/balance. Americans have since started drilling/machining things to mate them to B16/18 transaxles to alleviate that but it doesn't sound ideal (H2B swap). K20 engines came in at least 3 states of tune(+S2000) that might be worth being aware of, but is a newer & more advanced engine with more valve-timing variation & control, smoothing the transition between cam profiles & improving efficiency while the engine also claimed to be lighter than B16/18 & comes with 6-speed trans. K24 also came in a few states of tune with American Accords favoring torque with head revisions. Both were a new generation of engine & major re-think for Honda, rotating in the opposite direction & moving to the opposite (right/drivers) side of the engine bay with intake in front & exhaust behind, so much more engine mount work required. All are also Hydraulic clutch with cable g-shift & electronic speedometer. So apart from the niceties of keeping a cars brand origins & the fact that some have done it before, VW drivetrain may not be much harder to fit... I guess it depends which engine character you want to try. I gather K24 into Civics ends up needing a few K20 bits like intake manifold (or custom/modified?) & water outlets but can't speak from experience. I have briefly seen a K20 ED Civic sedan on the road & at a show locally for encouragement though. Note that changing Vtec change-over without turbo or other significant engine changes usually leaves a big hole before the wilder cam comes on song. & other internet pics for encouragement K20/24 H22 www.explicitspeedperformance.net/TheEFH22AHowTo.htmlhonda-tech.com/forums/honda-crx-ef-civic-1988-1991-3/1991-civic-hatch-h22-swap-build-thread-3175195/linkEdit: Makes me wonder if I'm over reacting to H22 hearsay of unknown conversions. B16A in my Cr-x already makes me worry about weight.
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Last Edit: Sept 18, 2017 20:53:48 GMT by 79cord
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Sept 19, 2017 12:20:31 GMT
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noooooo not a vag engine in this. Anything Honda will be better
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steveg
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,565
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Sept 19, 2017 13:35:37 GMT
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Nice to see a late 80's Civic on here. I bought one new in 1989 after having an XR2 and although the 1.4 didn't have the same torque as the Fiesta it went pretty well but had much nicer handling. After eating a few sets of front tyres I lowered it about an inch and fitted a set of 15" wheels on it and it was great. I don't know much about bigger Honda engines but wondered at the time if a Prelude engine might be made to fit, a 1.6 would have been good enough though especially if you wanted acceleration rather than the 130mph top end.
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Last Edit: Sept 19, 2017 13:36:44 GMT by steveg
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pegwie
Part of things
Posts: 95
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Sept 26, 2017 23:11:05 GMT
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Cheers for the input gents! I appreciate the links too-helpful information! Well firstly, I have put a deposit down on the engine setup that's going into this. All I will say is it has 5 cylinders and isn't honda Secondly, more stuff done (actually done last week but just got to uploading it); I made up a sill section, then welded in the rest of the quarter. Then ground all the welds back with 60 grit flap discs. Neatened up the rear cut-out and welded up a few of the hasty grinder cuts from when my friend owned it. Again welded shut all the cuts that were in the metal (where you can see zinc primer) & also replicated the left hand side onto the right. Welded in a patch as it was just a hole into the chassis leg before then trimmed to shape I did actually end up rolling the arch! Which in turn put a few ripples in the arch, so had to do a bit of filling. Also when I cleaned off the paint I had to do a bit of filling along the weld/top edge etc. This is all actually sanded down now and looks good in primer will get some up to date pics soon And I got a new daily! Just been resprayed, looks lovely imo My instagram is: pegwie if anyone prefers that way of updates Cheers
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Last Edit: Jan 17, 2018 23:52:16 GMT by pegwie
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steveg
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,565
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Sept 27, 2017 8:15:59 GMT
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The wheels I fitted on mine just rubbed the standard edge strip fitted on the rear arches, so making sure the lips are out of the way is a good plan. If you can get enough paint and sealer etc on them it might stop them going rusty again as well.
Is it fairly easy to get repair panels for them ? Could almost do with a complete rear quarter because of where they rust.
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Sept 27, 2017 12:11:22 GMT
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seems such a shame to me that this isnt getting a honda engine!!Such a light car would go well with any performance honda variant in it
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ivangt6
Part of things
Posts: 776
Club RR Member Number: 132
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1989 Honda Civicivangt6
@ivangt6
Club Retro Rides Member 132
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Sept 27, 2017 12:34:01 GMT
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This should sound nice with a 5 cylinder in it
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1979 Mini 1000 1972 Triumph GT6 2007 VW Golf GTi 1979 VW T25 Leisuredrive 1988 Range Rover Vogue SE
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pegwie
Part of things
Posts: 95
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Sept 27, 2017 13:32:52 GMT
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The wheels I fitted on mine just rubbed the standard edge strip fitted on the rear arches, so making sure the lips are out of the way is a good plan. If you can get enough paint and sealer etc on them it might stop them going rusty again as well. Is it fairly easy to get repair panels for them ? Could almost do with a complete rear quarter because of where they rust. That's exactly what I saw when I fitted my G60 steelies haha, they have proper sized yoko's on and would have just rubbed the lip otherwise! The lips are all painted and sealed with pu sealent so should be fine Will get underseal on top of that too when I get round to that! Yeah, I managed to get the rear arch repair sections through my local motor factors, they were around £45 each iirc. They also had sill panels, but that was it! I mean if the rust had spread all the way around maybe, but it was a manageable amount of rust and could be rectified with sheet metal, I know what you mean though! seems such a shame to me that this isnt getting a honda engine!!Such a light car would go well with any performance honda variant in it Why is it a shame? all the honda stuff has been done before, I get a bit bored going down the well beaten track. Plus I am utilising my knowledge already obtained from other marques This should sound nice with a 5 cylinder in it It should indeed! My favourite engine note, second only to the R32 golf engine haha
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Last Edit: Sept 27, 2017 13:35:08 GMT by pegwie
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79cord
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,608
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Sept 28, 2017 3:08:39 GMT
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I'd admit to disappointment we won't be seeing a crazy K24, after hearing the rare but memorably spine-tingling sound of a good manual Accord taken to it's redline with some non-standard exhausts, but know the choice has sound reasoning & have no doubts it will be anything but great & memorable. Certainly am seeing a lot of superficially nice VW Bora V5 in wreckers recently DSG disasters?
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