sonus
Europe
Posts: 1,386
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Legal help needed! I am a Norwegian citizen and I have been sending letters back and forth to the DVLA trying to get information about my cars history in the UK. First I sent a signed cover letter, the V888 form signed and UK£20 in cash to the DVLA. After four weeks I got a replay that they could not confirm that I was a genuine person. They included a credit note that is only valid for internal use at DVLA. So I took my original cover letter, the Norwegian V5 equivalent stating I own the car here in Norway, my drivers license and a second cover letter and get them all verified by a Public Notary here in Norway at a cost of UK£120. After three weeks I get the attached replay stating that they still can not verify I am I and that they will not release the details outside the UK. They claim that they can not release the details about previous owners due to the 'data protection act'. And in the last letter they also state that they will not release data/information to someone outside the UK. The DVLA site, nor the V888 form itself, states anything about not releasing info outside the UK and they did not inform me about this in their first response. Their argument also leaves the V888-document useless as it is exactly for this purpose I believe(?). I have now spent close to £200 including postage on this and I am no closer to my goal of tracking my cars ownership in the UK. I really would like to know my cars history in the UK as it might have some historic significance to TVR History. What can I do other than to send in a complaint to the complains department? Any help appreciated. www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/622658/v888-request-by-individual-for-information-about-vehicle.pdf
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Last Edit: Aug 25, 2017 8:56:08 GMT by sonus
Current 1968 TVR VIXEN S1 V8 Prototype 2004 TVR T350C 2017 BMW 340i
Previous BMW 325d E91LCI - sold Alfa Romeo GTV - sold Citroen AX GT - at the breakers Ford Puma 1.7 - sold Volvo V50 2.0d - sold MGB GT - wrecked by fire MG ZT 1.8T - sold VW E-golf Electric - sold Mini Countryman 1.6D -sold Land Rover Discovery TD5 - sold
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tdk
Part of things
Posts: 958
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The key phrase there is "limited range of circumstances" - and your interest in your old car isn't sufficient reason for them to release what information they may have. Even if you were in the UK you would get the same reply. I will say, though, that the DVLA are human. If you call them and talk to a person you tend to get a reasonable service, but I am sure you will get the same reply. Apologies if you have already done so, but you'll probably have more joy by asking around online as your car is clearly rare. This forum might be a good place to start - www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&f=34 , or (loooooong shot) TVRs old PR man is called Ben Samuelson, maybe he'll have some knowledge about the car and/or who might help. He's on Twitter here - twitter.com/bensamuelson?lang=enGetting this information out of the DVLA with the circumstances you have would be harder than getting sunburn in Trondheim in February. Good luck!
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I would have asked them before i went through that if they would submit information to someone not in the Uk ...As that would be my first thought . They have no obligation to do such thing as they are a UK agency dealing 99.9999999999% with UK matters , barring imports/exports and other straight forward issues .
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There are many stories of how frustrating it is to deal with the DVLA. I know that one of the "rules" with the V888 is that only the current registered keeper of the vehicle can request the details, so I guess that it is at least consistent with the rules that if your name isn't on the V5, then they won't do it. While I haven't had any trouble myself, they are known for being quite difficult to deal with. The fact they sent you an internal credit note even though they've already identified that they won't give you any information is itself ridiculous and shows a lack of thought - someone ticking the boxes rather than actually considering what they are doing. I noticed that when I do a vehicle enquiry on that registration, the "export" marker is set to "no". So if that means the DVLA are not aware it has been exported, could you contact the person on the V5 if you have it, and ask them to get the history for you? It's a bit of a leap, person might have moved house, but might be worth a go. Another option might be to retain a UK solicitor and see if they can act on your behalf. Maybe a TVR club could help, either with some history on the vehicle, or with some advice. Even if you were in the UK you would get the same reply I'm not sure that's true - when I sent in the V888 for my cars when I first got them, the DVLA sent copies of all the paperwork they had on file - the first application for registration, and copies of all the changes of owner details. They're from the seventies and are quite poor quality, but they're legible. Only for cars registered to me, though. If OP was in the UK, they could just register the car to themselves and then should be able to get the details.
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tdk
Part of things
Posts: 958
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Even if you were in the UK you would get the same reply I'm not sure that's true - when I sent in the V888 for my cars when I first got them, the DVLA sent copies of all the paperwork they had on file - the first application for registration, and copies of all the changes of owner details. They're from the seventies and are quite poor quality, but they're legible. Only for cars registered to me, though. If OP was in the UK, they could just register the car to themselves and then should be able to get the details. You have to have good reason, against a set of certain circumstances, as stated by the DVLA. When did you get your info and what was your reason? I'm surprised you got anything from them (but glad you did, obz)!
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sonus
Europe
Posts: 1,386
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Thanks all for your thoughts and suggestions, much appreciated The car was exported from the UK in 1982 by a Norwegian who later lived in Germany. He passed away two years ago. I spoke to him and he was going to look for the V5, but never got around to it. Ergo I have not got the V5, just the Norwegian equivalent. Could I ask a friend in the UK to apply for a V5 for the car since it is not marked as exported in the UK? Would this get me any more information? And if he then got the V5 (hopefullly it will not be turned down) he would then maybe be allowed submit a V888 to have the info from the records?
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Current 1968 TVR VIXEN S1 V8 Prototype 2004 TVR T350C 2017 BMW 340i
Previous BMW 325d E91LCI - sold Alfa Romeo GTV - sold Citroen AX GT - at the breakers Ford Puma 1.7 - sold Volvo V50 2.0d - sold MGB GT - wrecked by fire MG ZT 1.8T - sold VW E-golf Electric - sold Mini Countryman 1.6D -sold Land Rover Discovery TD5 - sold
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Aug 25, 2017 10:43:27 GMT
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Thanks all for your thoughts and suggestions, much appreciated The car was exported from the UK in 1982 by a Norwegian who later lived in Germany. He passed away two years ago. I spoke to him and he was going to look for the V5, but never got around to it. Ergo I have not got the V5, just the Norwegian equivalent. Could I ask a friend in the UK to apply for a V5 for the car since it is not marked as exported in the UK? Would this get me any more information? And if he then got the V5 (hopefullly it will not be turned down) he would then maybe be allowed submit a V888 to have the info from the records? TO be honest I think this would be a bit risky - Whoever has the V5 would in effect be classed as the owner of the vehicle as far as DVLA are concerned so would be liable to any road tax funds / etc.
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sonus
Europe
Posts: 1,386
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Aug 25, 2017 10:46:13 GMT
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Thanks all for your thoughts and suggestions, much appreciated The car was exported from the UK in 1982 by a Norwegian who later lived in Germany. He passed away two years ago. I spoke to him and he was going to look for the V5, but never got around to it. Ergo I have not got the V5, just the Norwegian equivalent. Could I ask a friend in the UK to apply for a V5 for the car since it is not marked as exported in the UK? Would this get me any more information? And if he then got the V5 (hopefullly it will not be turned down) he would then maybe be allowed submit a V888 to have the info from the records? TO be honest I think this would be a bit risky - Whoever has the V5 would in effect be classed as the owner of the vehicle as far as DVLA are concerned so would be liable to any road tax funds / etc. Is there any way to check if there is any outstanding tax etc. on the plates before someone applied for the V5?
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Current 1968 TVR VIXEN S1 V8 Prototype 2004 TVR T350C 2017 BMW 340i
Previous BMW 325d E91LCI - sold Alfa Romeo GTV - sold Citroen AX GT - at the breakers Ford Puma 1.7 - sold Volvo V50 2.0d - sold MGB GT - wrecked by fire MG ZT 1.8T - sold VW E-golf Electric - sold Mini Countryman 1.6D -sold Land Rover Discovery TD5 - sold
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Aug 25, 2017 10:47:27 GMT
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I'm not sure that's true - when I sent in the V888 for my cars when I first got them, the DVLA sent copies of all the paperwork they had on file - the first application for registration, and copies of all the changes of owner details. They're from the seventies and are quite poor quality, but they're legible. Only for cars registered to me, though. If OP was in the UK, they could just register the car to themselves and then should be able to get the details. You have to have good reason, against a set of certain circumstances, as stated by the DVLA. When did you get your info and what was your reason? I'm surprised you got anything from them (but glad you did, obz)! I had no issue either and received a similar pack for my Acty - copies of original dealer sales copies and all V5s submitted at each chain of ownership - I just wrote to DVLA and said I was restoring the vehicle and that I was interested if it had any interesting commercial uses in it's past life. Complication here is the request coming from abroad and as far as DVLA can tell from a person with no relationship to the vehicle so could potentially unknowingly be aiding vehicle cloning.
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scimjim
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,503
Club RR Member Number: 8
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Aug 25, 2017 10:55:31 GMT
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Researching the history is good enough reason (provided you own the car). I've applied for V5s and sent off V888s for several overseas owners in our club (unless you're a DVLA civil servant reading this, in which case I would never do such a thing).
If you're selling a car abroad it's worth paying for a V888 before you tell DVLA it's exported (I can't imagine why anyone overseas would think that DVLA would pass them info?).
Several cars I know of are put on SORN now that it's a one-off deal, rather than telling DVLA they're exported - makes it easier to do this kind of thing and much simpler if it's re-imported. Technically illegal but I doubt they'd ever check.
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Rob M
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,915
Club RR Member Number: 41
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Aug 25, 2017 11:32:59 GMT
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TO be honest I think this would be a bit risky - Whoever has the V5 would in effect be classed as the owner of the vehicle as far as DVLA are concerned so would be liable to any road tax funds / etc. Is there any way to check if there is any outstanding tax etc. on the plates before someone applied for the V5? Well the car was exported long before the whole SORN process came into being so there wont be any outstanding road tax payments and the like. Requesting a V5 for a car that was last on the road in the UK in 1982 COULD have them sniffing around. I suppose its feasible if somebody in the UK is 'buying' the car and bringing it back to the UK.........
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Aug 25, 2017 11:40:31 GMT
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Aug 25, 2017 12:02:12 GMT
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Don't know the rules/legalities, but one way around it could be to say you're moving to the UK for a while and would be bringing the car with you. As such you'd be wanting to register it in the UK again and would want to have the old number plate back on it. Then apply for the V5 with a UK address (a friend), and once you have the V5 you can use the V888 form.
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1993 Fiat Panda Selecta 2003 Vauxhall Combo 1.7DI van 2006 Mercedes Kompressor Evolution-S AMG SportCoupé
"You think you hate it now, wait til you drive it"
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sb
Part of things
Posts: 725
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Aug 25, 2017 13:15:02 GMT
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Is a foreign individual allowed to file a FoI request? Because the DVLA is one of the department's you can file one with. Doubt it would get you any further along but I think it's your last legal path before things get very grey.
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Aug 25, 2017 13:21:32 GMT
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It would be easy for anyone in the UK to apply for a V5, DVLA would usually check with the last registered keeper whether they had any objection (to find out if you are basically applying for a V5 for a car you don't own and then maybe plan to steal foe example).
Once the person had a new V5 they could use the V888 form and should get the info no problem.
The problem with the plan is that to apply for a V5 you have to be the keeper, not the owner. Some volunteer in the UK doing this would probably be acting fraudulently in doing this, regardless of there being no victim.
Normally I would say just give it a go, you would probably never get caught out, but I'd be cautious now that you have made the enquiries you already have, if DVLA recorded your enquiry and their declining on the vehicles computer record a V5 enquiry could flag up as suspicious.
It looks to me like the DVLA people dealing with it have just looked at the flowchart which says, non UK enquiry, say no and issue refund, and done that. As someone said the people there are human, they are also very inconsistent in how they apply the rules. I'd try a friendly phone call to see if you can explain to a human and let them see how they can help.
Good luck with it.
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Aug 25, 2017 14:09:05 GMT
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^^^ with the vehicle being out of the country(off the road as such) i'm guessing dvla will ask for an inspection before even thinking of releasing the v5c.
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sonus
Europe
Posts: 1,386
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Aug 25, 2017 14:28:16 GMT
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You have to have good reason, against a set of certain circumstances, as stated by the DVLA. When did you get your info and what was your reason? I'm surprised you got anything from them (but glad you did, obz)! I had no issue either and received a similar pack for my Acty - copies of original dealer sales copies and all V5s submitted at each chain of ownership - I just wrote to DVLA and said I was restoring the vehicle and that I was interested if it had any interesting commercial uses in it's past life. Complication here is the request coming from abroad and as far as DVLA can tell from a person with no relationship to the vehicle so could potentially unknowingly be aiding vehicle cloning. Well I do not know what else I can do than have the highest level of comfirmation available in Norway done by using a Public Notary to verify both the V5 in my name, my ID and my letters?
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Current 1968 TVR VIXEN S1 V8 Prototype 2004 TVR T350C 2017 BMW 340i
Previous BMW 325d E91LCI - sold Alfa Romeo GTV - sold Citroen AX GT - at the breakers Ford Puma 1.7 - sold Volvo V50 2.0d - sold MGB GT - wrecked by fire MG ZT 1.8T - sold VW E-golf Electric - sold Mini Countryman 1.6D -sold Land Rover Discovery TD5 - sold
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sonus
Europe
Posts: 1,386
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Aug 25, 2017 14:32:32 GMT
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It would be easy for anyone in the UK to apply for a V5, DVLA would usually check with the last registered keeper whether they had any objection (to find out if you are basically applying for a V5 for a car you don't own and then maybe plan to steal foe example). Once the person had a new V5 they could use the V888 form and should get the info no problem. The problem with the plan is that to apply for a V5 you have to be the keeper, not the owner. Some volunteer in the UK doing this would probably be acting fraudulently in doing this, regardless of there being no victim. Normally I would say just give it a go, you would probably never get caught out, but I'd be cautious now that you have made the enquiries you already have, if DVLA recorded your enquiry and their declining on the vehicles computer record a V5 enquiry could flag up as suspicious. It looks to me like the DVLA people dealing with it have just looked at the flowchart which says, non UK enquiry, say no and issue refund, and done that. As someone said the people there are human, they are also very inconsistent in how they apply the rules. I'd try a friendly phone call to see if you can explain to a human and let them see how they can help. Good luck with it. Could I as a foreigner apply for a V5 or do you need to be a UK citizen? I am after all the legal owner and keeper of the car.
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Current 1968 TVR VIXEN S1 V8 Prototype 2004 TVR T350C 2017 BMW 340i
Previous BMW 325d E91LCI - sold Alfa Romeo GTV - sold Citroen AX GT - at the breakers Ford Puma 1.7 - sold Volvo V50 2.0d - sold MGB GT - wrecked by fire MG ZT 1.8T - sold VW E-golf Electric - sold Mini Countryman 1.6D -sold Land Rover Discovery TD5 - sold
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sonus
Europe
Posts: 1,386
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Aug 25, 2017 14:33:39 GMT
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To those of you who have had the history of your vehicle - how long ago is this?
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Current 1968 TVR VIXEN S1 V8 Prototype 2004 TVR T350C 2017 BMW 340i
Previous BMW 325d E91LCI - sold Alfa Romeo GTV - sold Citroen AX GT - at the breakers Ford Puma 1.7 - sold Volvo V50 2.0d - sold MGB GT - wrecked by fire MG ZT 1.8T - sold VW E-golf Electric - sold Mini Countryman 1.6D -sold Land Rover Discovery TD5 - sold
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Aug 25, 2017 15:58:55 GMT
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Hi, To be honest anything you get from DVSA is just going to be names and addresses which will be 50 years old, I'm not sure that is going to advance you if you believe the car is historical. You may be better off going to TVR, their archivist or as tdk suggests their PR guy, any TVR history authors may help. If the car is interesting they will know more detailed history than you will get from DVSA.
Colin
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